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arachyd

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Reply with quote  #1001 
I'm not feeling very appeased. I don't see anyone else posting that they've been appeased by receiving their order either.
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smatthew

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Reply with quote  #1002 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheASTrader

sales of fig futures contracts.


We all knew going into this that we were buying plants in the future. That's why the prices are so low. Have you looked at purchasing fig plants lately? GrowOrganic.com sells fig trees for $25 bucks, and those are common varieties. Dave Wilson fig trees usually go for $25-30 bucks. Lets not even talk about how much people ask for figs on ebay... $14 dollars for tiny 3" tissue culture VdB plants is the low end and the sky is the limit!

If I had paid $25/tree + shipping, I would be upset at all the delays. But I didn't pay that much. 

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NoelG_123

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Reply with quote  #1003 
I left for more popcorn and a coke. Did I miss anything :)
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livetaswim06

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Reply with quote  #1004 
Just the butter.
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adipose

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Reply with quote  #1005 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheASTrader


initial investors are appeased by receiving payments funded by new investors

That's exactly what's happening here.  How are you not seeing this?  There are several posts here, including yours, that agree that without continual in-flow of orders, he would not be able to fulfill previous orders.  Structurally, that is a Ponzi scheme and exactly what you described above.  

As for the question of how has he benefited: an expansion of his operation with new hoophouses, a hire of a horticulturalist, time delays allowing existing 2015 trees to grow out more cuttings than he would not have had if he actually fulfilled the orders in time--all assets in which he has enriched himself with from proceeds from sales of fig futures contracts.


I understand what you are saying--I really do.  But you do realize he hasn't fulfilled any orders at all, right?

My understanding is he is trying to build an inventory large enough to fulfill everyone's orders at once (2016) and have enough of an operation in place to fulfill future orders.  Whether or not that occurs is anyone's guess.

As I said back earlier in the thread, if he truly is using 2017 money to make 2016 trees then that is bordering on the "Ponzi Scheme" concept.

Hovever, if this is a Ponzi scheme, it is executed very poorly.  If he wanted to do that then he would take orders out to 2020, use the money to buy trees from other sellers, and deliver them on time in 2016, creating the impression that things were running along smoothly, then get orders out to 2025 to deliver the trees for 2017, and so on.  Instead everyone is waiting for a tree and many are frustrated, which theoretically may cut down on future orders and increase cancellations.

If you read my posts in this thread I think you will see I'm not some defender of this business model, but someone trying to rationally analyze what is going on.

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arachyd

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Reply with quote  #1006 
At this point the price is irrelevant. There were shipment dates given and money changed hands. They were approximate dates but a year off in the estimation is ridiculous.
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Gardnernw

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Reply with quote  #1007 
I came across the Greenfin website and ordered trees over 6 months ago. After receiving no communication or response to e-mails, I did some research and found this site and these posts. I find it interesting that this "James" has so many loyal customers on this thread.

"We all knew going into this we were buying plants for the future."
"I see it as orders which are late."
"From the get-go James said this is a shaky business venture, but that he would do what he could to deliver."
"He hired a horticulturist.." By his own admission only for 5-10 hrs per week, if you can believe that.

Now I read that there are orders from 2015 that have not been filled and yet people still defend this guy. If indeed people paid for orders and don't mind waiting that is clearly their prerogative. But, there are unsuspecting consumers, like myself, who paid money without the opportunity to have made an informed decision. Had I known just how 'late' the business is operating, I would not have placed my order. I requested a refund and yes I put REFUND in the subject line. No refund yet.

I am surprised nobody has reported him to the authorities for taking money and not delivering a product. There are laws that protect consumers from being scammed or defrauded. Poor planning or business management is not a legal defense. 
bamafig

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Reply with quote  #1008 
Since you are new here, I will let you know. "You will be assimilated, resistance is futile." We will gather the necessary supplies and hang you at dawn.
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NoelG_123

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Reply with quote  #1009 
Poor guy he just over-booked. And it's not like anyone's been dragged out of there seat and bloodied. So look at the bright side, compared to United (a 1.5 Billion dollar corporation with thousands of employee's), James is a saint.
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grant441

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Reply with quote  #1010 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bamafig
Since you are new here, I will let you know. "You will be assimilated, resistance is futile." We will gather the necessary supplies and hang you at dawn.
Oh hell no there will be no hanging for speaking the truth.I am not one of these guys who is so worried about my reputation that I am going to invent some new screen name so I can get my two cents worth in. Has 1 person got their order yet? James got greedy and that is the root of the problem! Now bring your ropes to me. LMAO!

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adipose

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Reply with quote  #1011 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardnernw
I came across the Greenfin website and ordered trees over 6 months ago. After receiving no communication or response to e-mails, I did some research and found this site and these posts. I find it interesting that this "James" has so many loyal customers on this thread.

"I see it as orders which are late."


I assume that's referring to me.  I mean...they are orders...which are late...aren't they? Not sure I'd call that a defense.

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arachyd

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Reply with quote  #1012 
At this point they aren't late. They are nonexistent, in my opinion. I feel defrauded.
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adipose

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Reply with quote  #1013 
Well, that is certainly a possibility.  But since I can't say whether they will be delivered or not, I have to call them late.  Orders which haven't been delivered?
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brianm

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Reply with quote  #1014 
Quote:
Originally Posted by adipose
Well, that is certainly a possibility.  But since I can't say whether they will be delivered or not, I have to call them late.  Orders which haven't been delivered?

How much longer until you would consider it fraudulent?

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TheASTrader

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Reply with quote  #1015 
Quote:
Originally Posted by adipose


I understand what you are saying--I really do.  But you do realize he hasn't fulfilled any orders at all, right?

My understanding is he is trying to build an inventory large enough to fulfill everyone's orders at once (2016) and have enough of an operation in place to fulfill future orders.  Whether or not that occurs is anyone's guess.

As I said back earlier in the thread, if he truly is using 2017 money to make 2016 trees then that is bordering on the "Ponzi Scheme" concept.

Hovever, if this is a Ponzi scheme, it is executed very poorly.  If he wanted to do that then he would take orders out to 2020, use the money to buy trees from other sellers, and deliver them on time in 2016, creating the impression that things were running along smoothly, then get orders out to 2025 to deliver the trees for 2017, and so on.  Instead everyone is waiting for a tree and many are frustrated, which theoretically may cut down on future orders and increase cancellations.

If you read my posts in this thread I think you will see I'm not some defender of this business model, but someone trying to rationally analyze what is going on.


I understand what you are saying--I really do.  But you do realize he hasn't fulfilled any orders at all, right?

Then what you are saying is that it's not a Ponzi scheme, per se, but conspiracy to commit...

LMAO!!!!!! C'mon. 


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gardnernw


I am surprised nobody has reported him to the authorities for taking money and not delivering a product. There are laws that protect consumers from being scammed or defrauded. Poor planning or business management is not a legal defense. 


Go for it.  


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rayrose

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Reply with quote  #1016 
I believe James has left the building.
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smatthew

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Reply with quote  #1017 
I believe james is too busy growing fig trees for us to waste time reading a thread where people act like he's Bernie Madoff. 
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Tylt33

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Reply with quote  #1018 
I requested a refund on Tuesday, no response... gonna do a chargeback next week.
adipose

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Reply with quote  #1019 
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianm
How much longer until you would consider it fraudulent?


I would say the delays are unacceptable.  To declare it fraudulent I'd have to know more than I can possibly know--like an official investigation into his business.  Obviously, everyone has a breaking point and > 1 year late might be that number for some people.  But proving fraud would require some evidence that the failure to deliver was intentional, rather than poor business management.

I will say this.  I have already requested a refund recently because the trees I ordered no longer interest me.  I have acquired nearly all the varieties I wanted through more traditional sources (rooting cuttings from Harvey, for example).  At this point those late orders would just overload my inventory.  If I do not get my refund in a timely manner (1 week) I will be sure to post that information here.

Last time I emailed James it took about 3 days to get a response so I'm being patient.  But despite what some seem to think, I don't have rose colored glasses here (I was even verbally accosted earlier in the thread for suggesting James may be underwater due to his heating costs :) ).

I originally took a risk on $7 trees because for some of the varieties offered, the price was 1/10 that of buying trees through other sources.  In some cases, I bid on a variety a few times and didn't win any.  It seemed like a low risk in terms of money invested and I was happy to wait until late in the season to get those rarer varieties.

A Ponzi scheme can be a failed business, but a failed business does not have to be a Ponzi scheme.  If this business venture fails, it will take more than countless delays and frustration to prove fraud.

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Figowitz

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Reply with quote  #1020 
Asked for a refund a few weeks back and did not get a response, So I charged back on paypal, no problem, they said as long as it has not been over 6 months. Then you could have issues.
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adipose

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Reply with quote  #1021 
I'm past 6 months for one order.  I had a second order that might be less.
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Figowitz

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Reply with quote  #1022 
good luck...
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TheASTrader

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Reply with quote  #1023 
Quote:
Originally Posted by adipose
To declare it fraudulent I'd have to know more than I can possibly know--like an official investigation into his business. 


And how would an official investigation ever happen if you continue to deny it for what it is and act on it?  lol.  Rather circular logic there.

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amis54

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Reply with quote  #1024 
I asked James twice for refund without response and my protection from Paypal is over 180 days .
Figowitz

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Reply with quote  #1025 
PayPal can do nothing? Try the BBB.
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arachyd

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Reply with quote  #1026 
Mine is over the time limit for a PayPal refund as well. I did email James a few days ago but have not yet heard back from him. My patience is almost at an end. I, like an unknown number of others, ordered from his website and at that time had no knowledge of the offer on here beyond seeing that people vouched for James' integrity. There was no advance warning that there would be HUGE delays. I believed the shipping dates were to be honored just like on numerous other sites I've ordered plants, cuttings and bulbs from without a problem. Those sites all notify people of delayed shipping dates and stick to them. If this is how poorly he treats his customers I can't see his business succeeding very long even if he ever does start delivering. I don't want to see any more pics of how 'his' fig trees are doing or how good his setup is. I want to see how 'my' fig trees are doing and know when I'll get them - for real, not just a made-up delivery month that comes and goes with nothing delivered. It would be so much easier to wait if he had just sent even 1 order out to someone.
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bobkelley1

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Reply with quote  #1027 
Well I beleive it is time to knock James house down. I am an old man, that has a young Thai wife. She takes a lot of pride in her accomplishments. Worked hard to make the money to place 6 orders with James totalling over $3000.
Has a network of friends and business that were watching how her farm was doing.
This is a big loss of face for her.
James has not updated his website for over a month. Refuse to answer phone call or messages.
While a refund would be nice, don't think it will happen. If his PayPal account is revoked thar may well be a public service.

I am not a poor man, so what ever it takes. I hold 10000 share of PYPL stock so there are some shortcuts available to me, that regular customers do not

Will keep you posted.
Tylt33

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Reply with quote  #1028 
This is why you always always always use a credit card to pay through PayPal. Even when the six months of PayPal protection is over, you can do a chargeback.
Figowitz

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Reply with quote  #1029 
I wish you all best of luck on your refunds,
Just letting you guys know we ordered 140 varieties through http://www.figaholics.com/ and http://wagnerfarmsny.com/cny-figgery/, truthful honest people that communicate via phone and emailover. Of the 230 cuttings and we only lost one, 30 percent shade, 2sec mist every 2 1/2 minutes, top dressed with 18-6-8 NUTRICTE TTL T180 so when they root they shoot.
Stoked for 2017

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gorgi

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Reply with quote  #1030 
Happy Easter day (2017) to you all.

After a nice (full house + balcony) church mass;
we had our four grandchildren (4 yrs & under) visit us.

We had a great lunch and much fun playing with the kids
outside on a very nice spring day (strong sun & all) here in NJ.

Heck, the most object (toy) the kids had fun with was my simple
hand water sprayer bottle that I use for plants...

Also a major attraction/quarrel object, was my own back-then baby daughter's (an adult now)
open doll-house,  full of miniature people (doing most anything), furniture, etc., ..

Life goes on.

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adipose

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Reply with quote  #1031 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheASTrader


And how would an official investigation ever happen if you continue to deny it for what it is and act on it?  lol.  Rather circular logic there.


I am just a guy commenting on a thread on the internet. I don't think I am preventing any investigations by stating my opinion. There may be willful raud, but I cannot know that. You seem to suggest the only way to find out if it's fraud is to conclude that in advance--a logical fallacy.

Fraud and a Ponzi scheme are not necessarily the same. I mostly object to that term only because I don't find that it matches the circumstances. I never expected to profit or was misled about potential profits... I just expected to get my order or lose my money. If James never intended to ship my trees then that would be fraud. I don't think that was the intention but that's just my opinion. And my opinion is not stopping anyone from pursuing legal remedies.

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smatthew

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Reply with quote  #1032 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkelley1
place 6 orders with James totalling over $3000.


You are claiming that you ordered 300 fig trees from an unknown vendor? And this is the first time you've ever posted on this website?

I call BS on this one.

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bobkelley1

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Reply with quote  #1033 
Well Smathews:

BS?? I think not!

here are the orders that were placed:

5606-1072-4942-3039 Mar. 19, 2016  $143.00

0436-0341-6863-6631 Mar a9, 2016 $641.00

18883573X9817125Y Apr 3 2016 $758.00

#9FH22599L/M688*10*n Apr 12, 2016 $665.00

5D88493043252961U May 8th 2016 $693.00

27G70270NS858580S Jun. 26 2016 $275.00

0795-6490-3113-5968 Mar 24, 2016 $170.00

ONV29760XV978304R Apr 25. 2016 $826.00


I almost don't have a dog in this fight, but I used my PP account to place these orders. All of this was to come here and then on to Thailand. It was her money her dream for her 45 rai farm in Thailand.

For those of you that might have sympathy for James, I remind you THIS IS AN EMERGENCY OF HIS OWN MAKING!!

I started a internet search when my wife asked me to help and find out why she has never received any figs?? That is how I ended up here. Now that I understand the situation, I will give Jame one last chance for a full refund, after that I will use my position as a stockholder in PP to go downward from upper management and see that James is blocked for the rest of his life from using PP to defraud people.

If James chooses to refund the $4170 to my wife, then peace be upon him, if not he will find some people are vigilante in nature and will not stop... I hope he reads and heads this. (He should also read "The Badger doesn't give a shit'}.

My sole desire at this time of my life is to see my wife happy. (We have been married for 20+ years).

Right now she is embarrassed because she had promised to have these varieties on her farm to sell, and to share with other fig farmers in Thailand. She had posted a lot on the internet in Thailand.

For the past 5 years she has worked hard to develop her 45 rai organic farm. She makes her own money and decisions. I only get invoked when thing come off the tracks, and it looks like they are beyond what she can handle.
tyro

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Reply with quote  #1034 
Bob,

Go here,

http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/profile/1875694

Send a private message with "REFUND" in the header.
Seems a strange way to do business,but that's how you
get refunded.

Good luck with the wife's enterprise,I know figs are the
rage over there now.



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arachyd

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Reply with quote  #1035 
That could take a while since he hasn't visited the site for almost a month.
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tyro

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Reply with quote  #1036 
He hadn't visited the site for a similar amount of time when I sent my request early last month.
None the less,he refunded me within 24 hours.

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amis54

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Reply with quote  #1037 
Thank you Figowitz for the info. I submitted my complaint to BBB.
FigPolice

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Reply with quote  #1038 
It's about time to make a formal complaint. I have made mine. If you want your money back then you must make a formal complaint, let it be $10 or $5000. Do it now!.
https://ptsheriff.com/contact-us/
hoosierbanana

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Reply with quote  #1039 
What is really sad is the opposing side of this "war" really is a duplicitous group of know nothing newbies who basically fake friendships to manipulate people and get their money. 
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FigPolice

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Reply with quote  #1040 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosierbanana
What is really sad is the opposing side of this "war" really is a duplicitous group of know nothing newbies who basically fake friendships to manipulate people and get their money. 


Whatever that means!!. All I want is my fecking money back and certainly not some stupid lectures by fig experts. If anything James is the one who faked friendships and took people's money without any hesitation. And he's still doing it!
hoosierbanana

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Reply with quote  #1041 
Being a part of that group I think you know exactly what that means, tool.
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orawanjlf

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Reply with quote  #1042 
I'm from Thailand. I just ask for refund my two orders today. Last year, he gave me a refund within a week after I claimed for my Jolly Tiger order. I don't think paypal be able to solve my issue because it is over 6 months. I haven't received any figs. Now, it is not a good time to send any tree or cuttings via post. The weather is too warm here. I don't prefer to wait for another year.

1. 
31 Dec, 2015 04:45:58 PST Transaction ID: 63R22166CX595071N
2. 02 Mar, 2016 19:14:21 PST Transaction ID: 0PA73387KG351881M


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CliffH

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Reply with quote  #1043 

I really never planned to post on this thread topic again. But I wanted to state that I followed Jame's instructions when I recently requested a refund, and my money was returned to my PayPal account by the next day.

Like adipose above; I simply did not need the varieties any longer, having already gotten them from other sources in the months that I waited for the order from James. I still feel no animosity toward James. Just didn't need duplicate trees.

I would also say that if I was James, I wouldn't come here to read through this discussion thread either. Why would he want to read through all the bashing? It was originally to post his updates. Which he does post every once in a while (too infrequently, I know). But I would just post my updates, and skip reading all the nastiness when I did post (if I was him). A last thought, it does seem like the uglier this tread became the less frequently he posted updates......



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smatthew

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Reply with quote  #1044 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobkelley1

All of this was to come here and then on to Thailand. It was her money her dream for her 45 rai farm in Thailand. 



If this is really her dream, follow the instructions, request a refund, and find another source of fig trees. I hear there's a thriving Thailand fig trade - perhaps she can get cutting or trees locally?

And let's be honest - if money is important, and it often is when trying to start a farm, you should propagate your own trees. Then your wife will be able to sell her own trees in the future as a revenue stream.

There are many reputable sellers of cuttings who will ship internationally. Harvey does, and his catalog of varieties at figaholics.com is vast. WillsC over at OurFigs ships internationally as well. Unfortunately, it's past cuttings season for both of them.

Since you can't order cuttings until January 2018, why not wait and see if your fig trees arrive before then?


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FigWhisperer

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Reply with quote  #1045 
This thread tought me one important thing and I thought I had seen and heard it all.

People are un-grateful and un-appreciative when money is involved.  As soon as they pay something towards the deal they are getting, they start thinking like a customer/consumer, no matter who they deal with. They start to claim ownership to something they have no right to.
But when you give them something free, ohhh LOL watch them glorify you and advertise you as "the best person they have met", tell people "what a nice guy", they make you "smart", they make you "hero", they recommend you in forum with pride and they want to make sure that every one knows and reads that he knows you in person.

Having said that, I say, ehhh such is life.

I would never commit to such project just to appear (to some) as a good person. You want Fig plant? PAY MY PRICE!
Forget favors to a mass such this. Not worth it son.

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bobkelley1

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Reply with quote  #1046 
Shathew,

This is really what she had planned to do, is grown her own in Thailand, and sell cuttings.

I have started my process in getting a refund. James has until May 1st to do a refund. Hopefully he will not elli chai chai.

We have owned this farm for 10 years, but doing organic vegetables. Just added 200 banana trees a month ago. Dug a 1 rai pond (expensive $10,000) as we irrigate from a spring fed canal that sometimes the sugar cane growers block and take all the water.

As I said before, this business belongs to my wife, and is a good lesson about trusting people.
tsparozi

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Reply with quote  #1047 
Frank.... I don't completely agree or disagree with your comments but it likely should not be represented that James made the offers that he did out of the goodness of his heart or just to appear to be a good person in someone's eyes. THAT is frankly bending reality to your own will... James undertook a task of monumental proportions and with considerable risk involved in a complete and successful completion. James made a fantastic offer for cuttings and plants at an incredible price point and all he asked was prepayment for future delivery. His plan had to be to use the advanced funds for the cuttings, plants and postage for delivery of same to buy the necessary materials and build out the infrastructure to grow the plant material in order to complete the implied contract. Where the difficulties arose is a question that James can only answer.... I agree with you that that committing to such an adventure is not for everyone... not for you and certainly not for me. I am like you in that if I am going to provide plant material that costs money to produce then I would want fair compensation for same.... James clearly was trying to upgrade his nursery capabilities and sought the advance payment with a future delivery date at a great price as an inducement to increase participation. You shouldn't paint him as a saint going out of his way to do folks a favor; he offered a deal with benefits to himself and to the buyers.... I don't blame him for doing so, I was one of the folks looking to benefit from the offer; I still wish him well and hope that everything works out well for everyone. At the end of the day, however, my biggest disagreement with you is that as far as I am concerned when both he and the buyers agreed to go forward with the offer, there was an implied contract. This isn't about people being "ungrateful and unappreciative when money is involved", this is about a business proposition that has met with difficulties in meeting original delivery projections... the folks who were on the buying side have every right to be upset with the lack of communication and the sliding delivery dates.... James was running a business and as a business man, he did have certain responsibilities just as you and i would if we were running our own businesses..... 
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Tony S - Zone 6A Carmel, NY
WL- Martina, Calderona, Bon Jesusa, SantMartina, Bordissot Negra Rimada, Fiorone Oro (Rimada), Renyeca, Mata Soldats, Craven's Craving, Fibonacci Nero
adipose

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Reply with quote  #1048 
Quote:
They start to claim ownership to something they have no right to.


Frank, I hear you on the entitlement when buying and the praise when receiving for free.  I have benefited from the kindness of members here and I have also given cuttings for free.  I have never sold anything but I want my trees to find homes.  On the other hand I have purchased a lot, because that's the fastest way to get the things I want, and I make a cost benefit analysis.

However, I'm really confused by that quoted part above, because what are people claiming that they don't have a right to?  James made sales--he took money and promised a product.  We all know that price was rock bottom, even far below cost in my opinion.  But he set that price and people paid it and expected what was promised.  So what do you mean by that statement?  That all the people who gave James money have no right to expect the trees they thought they were buying?  Everyone should just walk away and be happy that they helped build out James's farm instead of giving those funds to other farmers?

I mean, I'll be honest, in my case I will do exactly that if I have to.  I will eat it and take no action and wish him well (and never order from him again, but that's something else).  But surely you can't be saying that it's his right to simply keep all the money and trees?  What do the buyers have a right to expect?

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Frankallen

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Reply with quote  #1049 
Hey Frank, Very good Post! Agree with everything you said! : )
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Frank from BamaZone 7-b Alabama

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FigWhisperer

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Reply with quote  #1050 
Claiming ownership is referred to the Project. Ofcaurse everyone is entitled to what they ordered and payed for. No question about that.

I live in Los Angeles and I know exactly what it takes to grow a fig plant, from cutting to a fruit producing tree and then comes the time when you CAN actually harvest cuttings from it.
Left everything to nature and just watering and feeding fertilizers from time to time is what it takes for figs to grow here. and I am talking about fig paradise here, where everything grows and fruit the way they're supposed to.

I don't see how people expect to see such a fast turnover where they can get what they want in few months (which is what was promised, I do understand)

But, see, this is what made the confusion: Not knowing enough about figs and their growth habits. Yes, some varieties will grow very fast but others will need the extra time they need. Arguing makes no sense in this subject. I have many varieties that are just stuck at cup stage or court stage and at 1ft height. and all of a sudden they decide to throw a huge limp out of nowhere and VOILA! A start of a new huge tree.
I just don't see how one can expect same performance from every variety, just not gon happen.

This is the reality of the nature with figs. Now, one can paint it as colorful as they please, dream the way you want to see it but when it comes to actually doing it, nature has it's own plan and you cant fight it.

Relax, wait, let them grow, and you will receive what you wished for, for $7 only.
 
I wouldn't sell you a reject in one gallon for $17, nevertheless $7. Seriously.

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Frank Q.

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