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$7 fig trees for spring/summer delivery, around 150+ varieties

Babylon, thanks for spoon feeding us the situation...I think you can get out any time...
Remind me to thank you at Staten Island Fair next week in Person...
Mark
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One correction to your summary, Babylon.  If he gets the extra land he expects to get, there will be no space issues for 2017.  But that's an unknown.

Also, "Your plants do not exist yet" is partially true--apparently the common varieties exist but are not ready for planting yet.
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What about the 2016/2017 cuttings?

The 2016 trees don't yet exist which is effecting the 2017 trees...  So how will there be any cutting in-between?

If there is going to be cuttings that should push the 2017 trees out even more....  Unless those are going to be outsourced..... then there is the whole misslabling and trusted seller issue same as the material being used now.
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I, like some others here, have no skin in this game. I don't even post much here. But some people are just too needy. The poor guy has said he is working from dawn to dusk and even into the night. He is clearly overwhelmed. I have 50 trees and feel overwhelmed. When exaclty is poor Greenfin supposed to find time to respond to all the kvitching here? He doesn't seem like a scammer to me. I'd say placing a 2017 order before I got my 2016 order that is delayed is probably a foolish move but there is too much mudslinging and whining here over this. I am sure this thread will be locked soon. In any event it seems clear many people continue to have faith in him, so the naysayers are not really creating much of a groundswell. Give it up. And Good luck to y'all! Too much animosity. These plants are a blessing-but not worth all this bad blood and emotion.
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Originally Posted by Babylon
To ensure everyone is understanding what James posted. You are looking at a minimum of 10 weeks for "easy" varieties, which is only half of the orders. Your plants do not exist yet. Being realistic, odds are they will not ship until 2017, as in 10 weeks it will be too cold in many places to ship a live plant ( mid November). This means, by his own admission, that 2017 orders will also be delayed since greenhouse space for them does not exist if 2016 orders are kept over winter. With the cutting presale also occurring, I imagine that cuts into stock for 2017 production as well, leading to further delays. In essence James is receiving interest free loans with no set time to make good on it.


I think it's a minimum of 8 weeks for easy to root trees...early November which is USUAllY still ok for the south...northern members may have to wait.

James is offering "interest" in the form of compensation of some sort...I for one would be happy with that so long as it does not adversely affect the orders of others in 2017.

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I like the possibility of 7 dollar Galicia Negra...;) I will cash in my certificate of deposit in 2017 or beyond....
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Funny how you started to emphasise this was a "scam", and now it's just a "loan". So what if our money goes to making James a tier 1 fig tree producer?

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James has been working day and night for months if not a year and is looking at another 6 months if not longer for what?

Best I can figure 1400 trees x $7 = $9800 gross. That's not profit that's gross. He's losing his shirt. And someone expects compensation for the delay???

Come on guys lighten up. I'm hoping James doesn't work himself to death for nothing.
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  • TGO

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Originally Posted by fignutty
James has been working day and night for months if not a year and is looking at another 6 months if not longer for what?

Best I can figure 1400 trees x $7 = $9800 gross. That's not profit that's gross. He's losing his shirt. And someone expects compensation for the delay???

Come on guys lighten up. I'm hoping James doesn't work himself to death for nothing.


Let's wait to nominate him for Sainthood until he actually delivers the trees. This is his program, he set it up and collected the money. He should have known what he was committing himself to and made appropriate limits on what he can produce. At this time he is still taking orders and money for trees with a scheduled delivery for March 2017... I think based just on what he has said regarding the updates that delivery of the 2017 trees in March is highly questionable. I am all for hoping for the best and understand it is a great undertaking that can be very beneficial for those of us who have orders in, but crowning him as some kind of hero falling on his sword for the benefit of the fig community is frankly premature at this point.

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I have no skin in the game either.
But the seller should stop booking new orders until he gets a better picture. He is just running up-hill and adding more weight to his backpack. It is his choice ... But, just not a reasonable one !
I saw here in my Zone7 4 years ago, tiny figtrees sold for 11€ and those were those so called "common strains" - Common strains do not exist here, so to say, since one "is not supposed" to grow figtrees here in my Zone7.
This project is interesting and is fun to follow... For me ... It shouldn't become a nightmare for the seller. Some times one needs to be reasonable ... But it is just not easy !
The selling cost of the trees is a challenge by itself ! Propagating trees at this pace, too ! The ball is on the seller's side ...
Good luck ! and keep us posted ! ( with a positive outcome :) )
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Originally Posted by mfehmi


Hi James!

I just wanted to ask about an update from the trees, is late August still the date you think they can be ready to ship? No rush, just want to have everything ready when the trees arrive home. Thanks in advance!!


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Originally Posted by GreenFin
Yes, I do think I'll be able to start shipping out orders at the end of the month.  Most of the trees should be ready by then, and the slower ones can finish growing while I'm busy packaging and shipping out the ready ones.  It's going to take a while to package and ship them all out (200 hours?), so it may be a few weeks beyond the end of the month before you get your trees. 

I'll email each person before shipping to verify their address and to make sure that it's a good time to ship :)


I want to give James the benefit of the doubt, but it's kind of hard for me. As you can see, I asked James on August 5 if the end of August was still the date that the trees will start to ship and as you can see he replied to my question saying that yes, It will take him a few weeks to finish packing all the trees.
My point is, I asked that question 3 weeks before the date that James put and he said that the trees will be ready.
Now he's telling us that for most easy varieties we will have to wait 10 weeks before there are ready to ship.
For the hard to root varieties we will have to wait even more.
On August 5, 3 weeks before the end of August, when I asked him, he should have known that it would be imposible for him to ship 1,400 trees. He should have told us the truth.

James, I know that you are working hard, but as you can see, a lot of us are unhappy with the current situation. The update left us with a lot of doubts. You asked for our opinions and ideas, and we already given a few, you should look at them and take them into consideration. Also James, I think you owe us all a better explanation of this situation, it's really not enough with your recent update. You should be sincere with us and if things are even worse than you said in your last update, it's fair for us to know that. All I'm asking is to be open and sincere with us, if you want your clients buying from you again, that's the way to go.

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Originally Posted by Babylon
To ensure everyone is understanding what James posted. You are looking at a minimum of 10 weeks for "easy" varieties, which is only half of the orders. Your plants do not exist yet. Being realistic, odds are they will not ship until 2017, as in 10 weeks it will be too cold in many places to ship a live plant ( mid November). This means, by his own admission, that 2017 orders will also be delayed since greenhouse space for them does not exist if 2016 orders are kept over winter. With the cutting presale also occurring, I imagine that cuts into stock for 2017 production as well, leading to further delays. In essence James is receiving interest free loans with no set time to make good on it. Best of luck, hope you get your plants. If I have this wrong, please correct me.


Is that you WillsC?
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Originally Posted by smatthew


Is that you WillsC?


No. That is not the issue at hand.
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I just thinks that he should have never taken preorders for cuttings for 2016/ 2017 due to the big delay. Also 2017 preorders should be paused or stopped so that he can concentrate on finishing 2016 orders that most likely won't happen till 2017.
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Originally Posted by Zuny
I just thinks that he should have never taken preorders for cuttings for 2016/ 2017 due to the big delay. Also 2017 preorders should be paused or stopped so that he can concentrate on finishing 2016 orders that most likely won't happen till 2017.



How many trees did you order?
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I didn't make an order just stating my opinion. I think he has good intentions but because he is really behind he should stop taking orders so that he may get caught up. Otherwise he is just gonna get even more behind. I also think you should stop being so negative toward people voicing their opinions. No one is attacking greenfin, just trying to help.

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Originally Posted by Zuny
I didn't make an order just stating my opinion. I think he has good intentions but because he is really behind he should stop taking orders so that he may get caught up. Otherwise he is just gonna get even more behind. I also think you should stop being so negative toward people voicing their opinions. No one is attacking greenfin, just trying to help.


I have NOT attacked no one for voicing their option! The only time I have been  Negative as you say  is when some of the people here said this was a SCAM and he was not trustworthy!! I do not know who you are and I respect your option here, but I don't think you know  the "whole ball of wax" here!! You have only been here 3 months, I would think you would be asking questions about Figs and trying to make friends here?
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Alan, thanks.  Yes, I'm busy enough without worrying about anything like competition which I think is good.  Not only am I "hoping" that this works out for James and the customers, I am working on seeing if I can help James out on some varieties (not gifting but just a bulk deal).  I've known James for quite a while and we've already done plenty of business together.

Scott, why on earth speculate who Babylon is and throw out a name with zero evidence?  I had communication with "Babylon" a day or two ago and won't disclose who it is but it surely is not Wills.  It's not a competitor, just someone concerned for the welfare of others.  I would suggest a different approach but everyone is entitled to express their own thoughts in the manners they chose.

I'd like to know where the heck Dennis Johnson is at.  In his absence, I'll try to be his voice of reason: "How about them figs??!!"
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Originally Posted by mfehmi
I want to give James the benefit of the doubt, but it's kind of hard for me. As you can see, I asked James on August 5 if the end of August was still the date that the trees will start to ship and as you can see he replied to my question saying that yes...


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Originally Posted by GreenFin
Yes, I do think I'll be able to start shipping out orders at the end of the month.  Most of the trees should be ready by then, and the slower ones can finish growing while I'm busy packaging and shipping out the ready ones.  It's going to take a while to package and ship them all out (200 hours?), so it may be a few weeks beyond the end of the month before you get your trees.  I'll email each person before shipping to verify their address and to make sure that it's a good time to ship :)

Everything I said to you was true, mfehmi:

- I was planning to start shipping orders out by the end of the month (which did in fact happen);

- Most of the trees (or maybe half) were in fact ready by the end of the month, and were already growing in their shipping containers: mostly the non-troublesome ones; 

- I was sincerely and justifiably thinking I'd be able to ship your order approximately a few weeks beyond the end of August.

In early August I knew that the troublesome ones were lagging what seemed to be a few weeks behind the others, and that I'd have many but not all of the non-troublesome ones by the end of the month.  So my plan was to ship out orders that contained only non-troublesome varieties, and to do so by supplying those orders with recently pruned mothers (which were growing in shipping containers), that way I could be shipping out those orders while rooting the rest of the non-troublesome cuttings from those mothers, and while waiting for the troublesome mothers to reach a point where I could prune and do the same thing with them.  I figured that I'd be able to prune all the troublesome mothers around mid-September, keep most of those mothers and all of the cuttings to continue propagating, and start shipping out the earliest orders that contained the troublesome varieties.  When I took the time to look up when you ordered and where you were in line, I saw that you ordered pretty early, and that you would probably be one of those folks to receive the first of the troublesome varieties (in the form of recently pruned mothers).  So at that point in early August when I wrote you, I did sincerely believe I'd be able to ship your order a few weeks after the end of August, and I felt I had good grounds for believing that estimate. 

I didn't realize the growth/mortality was so poor on the troublesome ones until much later in August because I had allowed a lot them (unsorted, with names I couldn't see) to keep growing undisturbed rather than prune/root/grow them.  There were two reasons for letting 'the seas of figs' keep on growing undisturbed.  First, they had a high proportion of green wood in late June, and the experimenting I had been doing with rooting soft green cuttings had produced poor results, so I thought it would be better to keep growing those mothers until they were better lignified.  Second, since I was lacking horizontal growing space, I thought I'd get the most total wood by letting them grow upward and not disturbing them.  It seemed to be working somewhat okay (a much higher percentage of their wood became lignified as they grew taller), but when I pulled them all out and did a thorough check later in August I found really bad news: many cups with dead Black Madeiras, Pretos, etc that looked to have died long ago and been hidden in the forest.  I had realized earlier that some cups had dead plants, but there were more than I thought, and they almost all turned out to be the high-demand varieties.  I also found that many of the smaller/runtier members of the unsorted trees turned out to be high-demand varieties.    

So in late August I was hit with that info, which shell-shocked me, and while I mulled over what to do I started working on the non-troublesome orders like I had planned.  By the time I was done with maybe the 2nd one it was already clear that I was being very wasteful: the mothers were going into the shipping boxes, and I was pruning them back to fit, but the wood that was left over outside the box had such a high proportion of soft green wood that I had to suddenly revise sharply downward how many viable cuttings I was going to get if I were to prune them at that time (I had done some experimenting with soft green cuttings, with very poor results), which would have left me too far short.  You can see what I mean in the pic below of an order I was boxing up in mid/late August:

[IMG_1716] 

So at that point I knew I needed to keep from wasting all that soft green wood, and I also had another major problem of needing to get all those cupped mothers out of the way immediately so that I could give their greenhouse space to new rootings (I can put ~150 cupped up new rooters in each floating wading pool, with 4 wading pools per swimming pool, and 6 wading pools in my garden pond when covered).  The best idea I could come up with was to up-pot everything into 3gal and 5 gal containers and move them outside so that 1) they'd be out of the way of upcoming rooters, and 2) they'd hopefully lignify better/faster under shade cloth than under plastic.  The tradeoff was that it has rendered me unable to send partial orders (i.e. the non-troublesome portions) or to ship out many of the non-troublesome orders, since almost all of the non-troublesome mothers were up-potted into big containers (the only exceptions being a few I had already sorted out for such orders, and a few varieties that I had lots of extras of and didn't bother to up-pot them all).   

There is nothing insincere going on, there's just a whole bunch of real-world obstacles and challenges that are slowing things down.  I've been wrong about some time estimates, but I've always been sincere and tried to estimate accurately.  It's like looking at a field you've never crossed and thinking you could run across it in 30 seconds, and then you get out there and you realize it's a bog in the middle and you're sinking to your shins.  At that point you realize 30 seconds was a naive estimate, but you also know you're darn well going to get to the other side eventually if you just keep pumping your legs and don't quit.  That's me right now.  I'm about 3/4 of the way through the bog and just sank in to my knees, but I'm still sloshing along toward the other side, and the muck should be getting shallower soon.  (One good sign: after a long wait due to not being in stock, my 2nd big shadehouse finally arrived today!!)   
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  • Sas

I ordered a bunch of names from James for 2016 and 2017 and for what I paid including shipping, couldn't get a single variety somewhere else.
I believe in the honor system and used it on many occasions in my life and I'm in no hurry in this case.
Thank you for the update.
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Originally Posted by Sas
I ordered a bunch of names from James for 2016 and 2017 and for what I paid including shipping, couldn't get a single variety somewhere else. I believe in the honor system and used it on many occasions in my life and I'm in no hurry in this case. Thank you for the update.



Ditto! : )
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James 
Thanks for the update and thanks for all your hard work.
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Originally Posted by HarveyC
Alan, thanks.  Yes, I'm busy enough without worrying about anything like competition which I think is good.  Not only am I "hoping" that this works out for James and the customers, I am working on seeing if I can help James out on some varieties (not gifting but just a bulk deal).  I've known James for quite a while and we've already done plenty of business together.

Scott, why on earth speculate who Babylon is and throw out a name with zero evidence?  I had communication with "Babylon" a day or two ago and won't disclose who it is but it surely is not Wills.  It's not a competitor, just someone concerned for the welfare of others.  I would suggest a different approach but everyone is entitled to express their own thoughts in the manners they chose.

I'd like to know where the heck Dennis Johnson is at.  In his absence, I'll try to be his voice of reason: "How about them figs??!!"




If James was a friend of yours as you claim, why would you be friends of someone that deceiving (that said James had a Ponzi Scheme and he was doing a Scam) ??
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Originally Posted by Sas
I ordered a bunch of names from James for 2016 and 2017 and for what I paid including shipping, couldn't get a single variety somewhere else. I believe in the honor system and used it on many occasions in my life and I'm in no hurry in this case. Thank you for the update.
Agreed.
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I just read back through the last 2-3 pages, and I feel sick about having caused all this stress and frustration.  It's awful seeing folks venting at each other and knowing it's my fault.  Let's turn the page and get back to talking figs. 

There were a number of posts with questions that I hadn't seen and addressed yet, I'll try to work through them now in some ensuing posts.
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Originally Posted by dkirtexas
All parties involved have entered into a contract with a deliverable, the instant a deliverable is violated,  the contract is breached.  The lack of remedy is disturbing.  

Hope, promises, and understanding, is not a remedy.

It will take time for the best remedy (getting everyone their trees), but I also have a lesser remedy available, which is a standing policy to refund any order at any time for any reason.  I know that isn't an ideal remedy for folks, especially since they've already invested so much time, but I want to make sure everyone knows that it's available (just email or pm me if you want one).
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Originally Posted by Babylon
To ensure everyone is understanding what James posted. You are looking at a minimum of 10 weeks for "easy" varieties, which is only half of the orders. Your plants do not exist yet. Being realistic, odds are they will not ship until 2017, as in 10 weeks it will be too cold in many places to ship a live plant ( mid November). This means, by his own admission, that 2017 orders will also be delayed since greenhouse space for them does not exist if 2016 orders are kept over winter. With the cutting presale also occurring, I imagine that cuts into stock for 2017 production as well, leading to further delays. In essence James is receiving interest free loans with no set time to make good on it.

Best of luck, hope you get your plants. If I have this wrong, please correct me.


May I ask you one thing? If you didn't order any trees why are so concerned with this issue? Do you just Nose in to people's business? Are you just a coward wearing the cloak of a person with no name? You are nothing but a coward and a pile of shet !
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