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$7 fig trees for spring/summer delivery, around 150+ varieties

A couple of things.

1.   I think everyone who ordered understood that the money being collected up front was going to be used to root/grow/raise trees.  GreenFig explained that he needed to pay for heat in the greenhouses in winter, etc.
2.   I think more was bitten off than it was possible to initially chew and efforts are being made to grow all the trees and get them out.  We've been told that if refunds are requested, they will be made.  We haven't heard back from anyone saying they didn't receive a refund.  Yes, if everyone requested a refund the system would collapse.  I believe most of us are willing to wait - we're talking figs here, not a kidney for our child, after all.
3.  While I presume money is important to each of us, anyone who 'invested' more than they can afford to lose on $7 trees, if everything goes in the toilet, needs to rethink their priorities.
4.  Could whomever posted the popcorn post some more - I ate all of mine.


Andrew
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cponzi

   I do not know why people have no guts to say their opinion with their original handle...
 
maybe you think you are seeing a Ponzi scheme, but not a lot of people see it that way...most people see it as helping a fellow fig grower achieve his dream...
I like the way you spray some poison with some complimentary...
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ThaiFig


 Can you please specify why James need to answer your questions...YOU ARE NOT A CUSTOMER OF HIS...you are becoming annoying..stop nagging...you start sounding as concern Fig merchant, that going to lose a lot of business to James if he succeed and you do not want him to succeed...you want people to start worrying and ask for refund , then you see his venture collapse...

  Some people have dreams and do something about it...and some people like to destroy them..because they are not capable of dreaming...
 
Again what do you teach exactly...
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ThaiFig


  NO, I am not having any doubts...I will be there to the end...I am supporting him all the way...it is high risk...high rewards investment...you are getting a Black Maderia tree for $7,last time I checked some website I saw the cutting being sold for $15. so I am willing to stay the course...

  I do not think this is the proper way or channels to ask questions...you can send him a PM and he can answer you at his time. you want people who believe in him to have doubt that why you are raising your questions in public...you can always state your opinion but not the way you are doing...you are trying to let people have doubt so they can ask for refunds and James Venture collapse...

  You have NO business being on this topic , you have no money invested...you have no worry...so why the nagging and spreading poison. 

  You are investing your time in writing essays to discourage people to stick with their purchase...WHY , you do not seem like a nice person..so whats in it for you...who the Fig Vendor in the states that promised you A rare cuttings so you can write your essays...or what did James do to you...
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  • tyro
  • · Edited

Mark,

James has used this forum as his primary marketing tool,having done so he is open
to criticism from anyone on the forum.You don't have to buy a ticket.

I have watched this offering morph so many times,it's hard to keep it straight.From
"I'll grow you a plant for less than cutting cost" to "About those plant's?Sorry,I'll have to
air layer them from the cuttings I just grew"..To "Sorry,got to air layer the air layers"

All of this taking place on the cold,hard,Kansas plains
under plastic.One would have to suspend disbelief not to have serious doubts.

Ajarn has merely made a compilation of James' failed promises and pointed out he's
still selling 2017 future's while he's failed to deliver on the 2016 contracts.Yes,
he's grabbed it by the neck and given it a couple of shakes but nothing that I see is false.

Wills was correct on denying this offering on OF,you only need to read the last
couple of pages in this thread to know why.
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@Tyro
Well stated, Fair comments.

@Lebmark
Your position on "the right to comment" is wrong.  If it is posted on open forum, the "open" part is in play.  You may support James, if so, you are open comments that may be positive or negative.

To all forum members, my unsolicited opinion.
This is a forum, all posts are open to comment by all members, regardless of position on any post.  If you feel the need to participate in any discussion you should do so, but in doing so, you should not advocate censure from the resulting comments.

If you advocate the use of PM you should be using the PM.

EDIT
Why doesn't James answer these comments/questions in open forum?
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On the page "Fall 2017 Fig Trees for Sale", it is written that "You can now advance order fig trees for delivery around October 2017". On the other hand, it is written in the table that "March 2017". Which is correct?  
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Originally Posted by waynea
I may be wrong but it seems that members that have ordered should be the ones to be concerned, but correct me if I am wrong, are the persons who have not ordered the ones making the negative comments? The members who ordered knew the risk and concept of the future product. It's like buying stock in a start up company that needs capital, you could make out okay or you could lose your entire investment. So if you are one who ordered and are not pleased with the progress then contact James and ask for a refund, or wait like most who have ordered. Those who have not ordered, we appreciate your concern but we really would like to see you start another thread and be negative with the others who have not ordered. 


Great Post Wayne !!
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  • Avatar / Picture
  • Sas

In this particular situation buyers knew that the product was not readily available and the seller described his approach to this venture in order to meet demand. He's been busy putting up structures and hustling to stay on schedule, while fighting the elements. It's not like he is mining for gold and ended up with a copper.

I simply don't understand the hostility and must conclude that other sellers/potential sellers are upset that prices have dropped significantly as demand dried up. The pool of potential buyers cannot keep growing exponentially and at some point there will be a lot of supply on the market, the main reason for lower prices across the board.
Now if my neighbor decided to start his own business, I'd wish him luck with all my heart. In this case I see a lot of jealousy, nothing more and nothing less and most of the negative comments are coming from people who did not order anything.
If I'm not happy with a service, I end the relationship and here everyone has a chance to get their money if they wish.
Everyone who ordered is an adult and does not need to be reminded every single day that he's about to lose his or her money. Never ask a barber if you need a haircut.
It's ok to advertise that coke is better (or has a better service) than Pepsi but it's not ok to say that the CEO of coke is more honest than the CEO of Pepsi especially if the claim is made by the other CEO. It's poor advertising.
If people are enjoying this conversation, perhaps we should start a new thread called anger management, since this forum has turned away from the main topic.
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  • ross
  • · Edited

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Originally Posted by ThaiFig
You don't like my posts, I think there's an ignore poster button.  Others apparently do from the emails and PMs I've received.


Where's this ignore a specific member button? What a joy that'll finally be. And I wonder if there's an ignore an entire thread button :D
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Seriously Ross... I am disappointed.... your post is not up to your usually high standards. Nothing wrong with what ThaiFig is running up the flag pole.... ThaiFig ususally provides excellent instructional grow guidance without coming off as a smartass. You are quite tech savy so you don't need to be told that if you don't want to participate on a thread, you simply don't click into it...
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  • ross
  • · Edited

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Originally Posted by tsparozi
Seriously Ross... I am disappointed.... your post is not up to your usually high standards. Nothing wrong with what ThaiFig is running up the flag pole.... ThaiFig ususally provides excellent instructional grow guidance without coming off as a smartass. You are quite tech savy so you don't need to be told that if you don't want to participate on a thread, you simply don't click into it...


Tony,

It came off that way, but my intent wasn't directed at ThaiFigs. And I honestly have no idea how to ignore people.
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  • Sas

Thai fig
In order to respond, I must dissect your previous post, but I'll be brief.
This forum is read in your country whether you admit it or not, and one of the questions that people might be asking is how come someone is selling $7 trees in the US while your trees are selling for $100s. The gentleman's response would be something like my cost is higher rather than attacking the character of someone you don't know.
I don't know James, nor am I trying to win any favors from anyone. If James was to contact me and tell me that he cannot make delivery for any reason, I'd understand get my money back and move on.
You keep referring it as a Ponzi Scheme. We have seen pictures of the greenhouses (Not on the moon) and the explanations that came along with them and we all know where James is. I've also seen nice pictures of what you grow.
FYI "Ponzi scheme (/ˈpɒn.zi/; also a Ponzi game)[1] is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned through legitimate sources".

This whole concept does not apply over her, since James disclosed to everyone involved that the products were not available. I'm one of the believers that's it's simply a matter of time before he delivers and I get the feeling that you many not happy about that. If you were genuinely wishing him well and contemplating purchasing from James, the right thing to do would be to wait for the outcome rather than attacking his character.
You say that you represent some fig buyers. If you are a seller yourself then how could you represent buyers?
In the end I don't see any buyers raising the alarm level and if I'm not mistaken PayPal does offer some kind of protection for your purchases.
The fact that you keep beating a dead horse, it's becoming clear to me now that there is an international fig syndicate that may have found its headquarters in your country and is not happy about lower prices.




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Originally Posted by SCfigFanatic
LOL, no kidding.
The zone alone provides its own limitations.
I wish james success, but looking at all his videos he only shows
very common figs. Alma ect.

Drew, if wannab moderators stop trying to say who has a right to post
I would not need to repeat myself.

Doug


So you post because others say not to? I thought it was because you cared?

Post if you want then! ;) Yes post all the time, you win! :) While it may be circular logic bent to your POV, you are actually entitled to your POV.

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Thai fig,

You post with a lot of "Concerns", some of which even have good logic to them. However if this was a "Scam" James would not have refunded those who wanted a refund...

It is way past the Pay Pal refund time period, James had no legal obligation under the pay Pal rules...yet he did.

He also shows pics of the set up, so this is a real attempt on his part. Everyone knew that the figs did not exist yet, everyone...even if his timing was way off.

I trust James will come through with the order, yes it is quite a delay, but spring is OK with me, and a lot of others.

At the very least spring will bring better delivery conditions...if the tunnels are heated and under grow lights, they should grow well enough.

I'm sure you ( Thai Fig) , Doug from the palmetto State and Babylon from Hades will be more than glad for all of us when we receive our trees in the spring. :)
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Originally Posted by Sas
Thai fig In order to respond, I must dissect your previous post, but I'll be brief. This forum is read in your country whether you admit it or not, and one of the questions that people might be asking is how come someone is selling $7 trees in the US while your trees are selling for $100s. The gentleman's response would be something like my cost is higher rather than attacking the character of someone you don't know. I don't know James, nor am I trying to win any favors from anyone. If James was to contact me and tell me that he cannot make delivery for any reason, I'd understand get my money back and move on. You keep referring it as a Ponzi Scheme. We have seen pictures of the greenhouses (Not on the moon) and the explanations that came along with them and we all know where James is. I've also seen nice pictures of what you grow. FYI "Ponzi scheme (/ˈpɒn.zi/; also a Ponzi game)[1] is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned through legitimate sources". This whole concept does not apply over her, since James disclosed to everyone involved that the products were not available. I'm one of the believers that's it's simply a matter of time before he delivers and I get the feeling that you many not happy about that. If you were genuinely wishing him well and contemplating purchasing from James, the right thing to do would be to wait for the outcome rather than attacking his character. You say that you represent some fig buyers. If you are a seller yourself then how could you represent buyers? In the end I don't see any buyers raising the alarm level and if I'm not mistaken PayPal does offer some kind of protection for your purchases. The fact that you keep beating a dead horse, it's becoming clear to me now that there is an international fig syndicate that may have found its headquarters in your country and is not happy about lower prices.


Look, I'm not going to say this is a Ponzi scheme, but the main reason this cannot be called a Ponzi scheme is, no returns have been paid out. 

If James had been buying cuttings/trees with the money we sent for 2017, and delivering them on-time for 2016 orders, knowing that he would never be able to deliver 2017 orders without money from 2018-2019 orders, that would be a Ponzi scheme. 

Instead what we have is investments have been paid all the way into Oct. 2017 orders, and no returns have been paid.  So, he is not trying to make the investment appear better than it is by paying out early returns.  However, as soon as people start receiving their cuttings, at that point one could make the argument for a Ponzi scheme, as backwards as that sounds.

The more accurate and concerning description of the situation, should figs fail to be delivered, would be "failed enterprise." If James runs out of money before delivering any 2016 figs, that would mean the 2017 investments were used for 2016 orders.  That would border on "Ponzi," because it would mean he was underwater, knew it, and used money from new "investors" to cover current demands.  If he runs out after delivering 2016 orders but before starting 2017 orders, the same would apply.

Wikipedia:
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Ponzi schemes occasionally begin as legitimate businesses, until the business fails to achieve the returns expected. The business becomes a Ponzi scheme if it then continues under fraudulent terms. Whatever the initial situation, the perpetuation of the high returns requires an ever-increasing flow of money from new investors to sustain the scheme


Perhaps the term "Ponzi" is inadequate here as no "high returns" were ever promised, and we can arguably be called customers rather than investors.  On the other hand, James described us as investors, made it clear he needed the seed capital to begin the project, and took money with no products to deliver.  $7 Black Madeira could be called a "high return," if you will.  If he can't do it without 2017 money--then "Ponzi" could apply.

I think the honest truth that we all should acknowledge is--James did not have money to pay his heating bills at the beginning of this.  The investment we have seen evidence of has surely depleted the 2016 investments that he enumerated based on my earlier questions.  At this point he must be going into pocket.  But how deep is that pocket, if he couldn't afford to heat his greenhouses originally?  If that pocket is empty, the only place to take from is 2017 orders.
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Originally Posted by adipose


Look, I'm not going to say this is a Ponzi scheme, but the main reason this cannot be called a Ponzi scheme is, no returns have been paid out. 

If James had been buying cuttings/trees with the money we sent for 2017, and delivering them on-time for 2016 orders, knowing that he would never be able to deliver 2017 orders without money from 2018-2019 orders, that would be a Ponzi scheme. 

Instead what we have is investments have been paid all the way into Oct. 2017 orders, and no returns have been paid.  So, he is not trying to make the investment appear better than it is by paying out early returns.  However, as soon as people start receiving their cuttings, at that point one could make the argument for a Ponzi scheme, as backwards as that sounds.

The more accurate and concerning description of the situation, should figs fail to be delivered, would be "failed enterprise." If James runs out of money before delivering any 2016 figs, that would mean the 2017 investments were used for 2016 orders.  That would border on "Ponzi," because it would mean he was underwater, knew it, and used money from new "investors" to cover current demands.  If he runs out after delivering 2016 orders but before starting 2017 orders, the same would apply.

Wikipedia:


Perhaps the term "Ponzi" is inadequate here as no "high returns" were ever promised, and we can arguably be called customers rather than investors.  On the other hand, James described us as investors, made it clear he needed the seed capital to begin the project, and took money with no products to deliver.  $7 Black Madeira could be called a "high return," if you will.  If he can't do it without 2017 money--then "Ponzi" could apply.

I think the honest truth that we all should acknowledge is--James did not have money to pay his heating bills at the beginning of this.  The investment we have seen evidence of has surely depleted the 2016 investments that he enumerated based on my earlier questions.  At this point he must be going into pocket.  But how deep is that pocket, if he couldn't afford to heat his greenhouses originally?  If that pocket is empty, the only place to take from is 2017 orders.


Adipose-Why don't you contact James and ask him these questions if you are so concerned about it? You have came up with personal questions like about "James and his Money"..... Oh yea, I never heard James say he was not able to pay his heating Bill! So the best thing for you to do is get it from the Horse's Mouth.
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  • Sas

A $7 Black Madeira is a high return tree, but certainly not for James and the only return that I expect from my Black Madeira, which by the way I received from UCD for free is delicious figs at some point in the distant future. I might even make some money selling fruit at the local farmers market if I chose to do it.
The man continues to expand his business/green houses and gave everyone a chance to pull out at anytime if they wish to. I don't see anyone stepping up to the plate claiming that their money has been lost.
My gut feeling is that James business is here to stay. The question to ask is who stands to benefit the most from his failure?
I believe in competition, it's healthy for the consumer/hobbyist and in the absence of fraudulent practices, what seems to be going on here is that some people are talking the mans business down especially after the customers not investors knew the scenario and the offer for a full refund stands.
There are plenty of sources for trees and most sellers are reputable and I can say that it was a pleasure to deal with most of them if not all but in this particular case, I for one expected delays, and over the years know that when you're growing trees many things can go wrong and still don't have a problem with it.
After being offered a full refund, it has become clear to me that the only people who have a problem with it are mainly the ones who did not order anything. It makes you wonder why. If these competitors have the consumers interest at heart, perhaps some might offer $7 Black Madeira trees for sale.
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Originally Posted by Frankallen


Adipose-Why don't you contact James and ask him these questions if you are so concerned about it? You have came up with personal questions like about "James and his Money"..... Oh yea, I never heard James say he was not able to pay his heating Bill! So the best thing for you to do is get it from the Horse's Mouth.



Here's what I was talking about regarding the heating:

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A large part of the cost of growing the fig trees will be heating my 4 greenhouses, where I also grow lots of fish and bananas.  Heating is really expensive, so I usually only heat half my space, and I only heat it a minimal amount.  But I would crank up the heat for your fig trees, and that would have the side benefits of making my fish and bananas happier and helping them to grow faster.   So in a nutshell, in exchange for hooking you up with cheap trees, you’d help to pay my heating bill and allow me to grow bigger fish and bananas.


What I meant was, he was taking money from us to pay the heating bills so he could grow these figs.  Presumably, he didn't have the money to do it without our investment.  That's why he asked for money up front.  But in his original plan, he never anticipated heating through the 2016-2017 winter.  The figs were supposed to be done in summer.  So he must be over cost.  It's simple math.

Oh, and as for contacting James directly--we are all "investors" in the same enterprise and I feel it is beneficial to discuss this out in the open.  Not to mention, many have said PMs are going unanswered.  By posting here he can answer everyone at once.  I'm sorry if my analysis of the situation offends anyone--it's certainly not meant to.  I just was responding to what I read.

As for being concerned about it, I have acknowledged earlier I am fully prepared to lose my whole investment, as all should be.  But until trees are delivered, all we have is speculation as to the viability of the project long-term.
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Just got a visit from USDA. They got a phone call from concerned citizen- fig collector from CA.

It was about my eBay purchases from other countries. They give me name of a person as I refused to answer any questions before I know a source of complaint. I will not mention a name, will let you guess if you know something about fig community.

One of the sellers/growers/collectors who is losing a lot from GreenFin operation and has a lot of friends in Thailand. It is really easy to guess. Especially taking into consideration person who is attacking GreenFin very aggressive lately. What a coincidence….

Let me tell you what is going to happen now.

I will start working on eBay information available for public- who is selling and getting fig cuttings from oversees. Really easy to get all this information from eBay seller feedback. And identity and country from buyer is clearly indicated on their profile. Easy as cake.

I will order from this sellers to get verification of addresses and names. And will not only report them to USDA but send all purchased cuttings as an evidence and printouts of eBay listings with names of cuttings and description of figs.  “Rare variety from Spain”, let’s say- and it will be up to seller to explain how they got a variety from Spain without legal papers. But it is not a biggest problem- visit from USDA will be fun. As this seller proudly advertising his Facebook account I will be able to get a lot of information about his varieties and buyers from other countries. Sure it is going to take time, but somebody has to stop this person from feeling to be a king of fig community, even if he is it is still not fear to attack fellow fig growers.

Ops.. I forgot that it is not about comradery but $$$$$$$$$$$$$$....

It will explain a lot about few comments about GreenFin and his operation from a member who was registered 10 min before he post a negative comments.

Remember a member who was teaching you that it is illegal to sell to other countries, but was getting all kind of cuttings from other countries and then selling them on eBay?

 I will not mention Ponte Tresa but it is a good example. Remember last year sale of PT cuttings $80 each from CA seller. It must hurt a lot this year as GreenFin selling cuttings of the same tree only for $20.

Please spare your comments about Karma and such, be more specific if you want to discuss this issue.

Remember it is a public forum and it is a free country.

 
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@tyro
  I respect you and your opinion,  he can state his opinion once twice and trice but not 70 times and it is not a constructive criticism...he is trying to make sure that James loses his venture and make sure far east fig collectors   do not buy from him...

Regarding Wills...he is not as nice as you think...he did not allow James at his forum, is because of conflict of interest...Wills does sell Figs and he does not want an additional competitor , he has to live with some...but not all.

@dkirtexas
  You are right he is entitle to his opinion...but not over do it, like 70 times... because of conflict of interest...when you know is putting you down because he is afraid to lose business.

@ SCfigFanatic
I just went to his website the 2017 plants are to deliver in the Fall 2017

@ Sas
  Thanks for showing us the light like I thought he was protecting his business and trying to destroy a competing business... I do not think that ethical...

@ ThaiFig
good to know your concern is not about us...but about you losing Business because of James...know the big picture is getting clearer...I am rooting for James more know for your an ethical behavior, not illegal but NOT NICE...In This forum we suppose to be helping each other and not destroying the competition...



  Every body here is worried that James can or cannot offered his utility bills...Just FYI  James financial situation should be better than it was when he did the $7 offer...as an internet seller , Banks see that he can generate cash in his business (and we all know here that he did) and they will be attracted to him (to be politically correct) as Bees to Honey...so he will have loans thrown at him and that will buy him time...Fig merchant or any Merchant who sell on the net knows that...so stop worrying about his month to month expenses...

  Most fig merchants or hobbyist (including Me) market their trees here...and then you see them selling it on eBay or on the Forum, nothing wrong with it, if Jon is OK with it. so why most people complain about it because James did it...
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I am leaving this forum Thursday or Friday and I will not return as a member. I have already manually deleted all the threads I ever started and I have deleted manually a majority of the 2,700 something other posts I made on here, I have deleted all the private messages in my mailbox. Jon clearly has no time to moderate this forum or is afraid to. I am sick of seeing adults acting like 3 year olds on here. It has been happening on and off since 2011, clearly no matter how great things can get in here it will keep going back to this, so much negative BS that it's a major chore to even see what was posted on here of any value. I have never been so against our figs as I am now since someone running it was the biggest trouble maker/drama queen on here. they will not be rewarded for it.
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  • Sas

@Alan, I'm surprised about your decision to leave after all these years. Perhaps, I missed something here. It's not where we write, it's what we write that counts.




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Originally Posted by alanmercieca
I am leaving this forum Thursday or Friday and I will not return as a member. I have already manually deleted all the threads I ever started and I have deleted manually a majority of the 2,700 something other posts I made on here, I have deleted all the private messages in my mailbox. Jon clearly has no time to moderate this forum or is afraid to. I am sick of seeing adults acting like 3 year olds on here. It has been happening on and off since 2011, clearly no matter how great things can get in here it will keep going back to this, so much negative BS that it's a major chore to even see what was posted on here of any value. I have never been so against our figs as I am now since someone running it was the biggest trouble maker/drama queen on here. they will not be rewarded for it.


Alan,

I have been on over moderated forums before, and preffer a more liberal forum like this one.

Anyways the only post I hope you delete is this one...and then I will delete this qoute.
We should not let these jesters rule the castle and make you feel unwelcome...don't take them to heart.

You gave good advice over the years, advice that is helpful to new comers and more experienced alike...it would be a shame to loose that. Plus if you leave the jesters win a victory...don't give them the satisfaction. ..the guy who runs "our figs" would be most happy if this forum were to implode...or even just lose some good posters.

What I find helpful is taking a break from a forum when things get a little out of hand ...you can always come back later. ;)


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Newcomers to his web page can only order in the future tense, where hopefully these problems will be worked out by then...

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Besides, sometimes you just have to take a leap of faith with certain people, that despite obvious problems, eventually they will make it right. SOME people try very hard to live up to their word, I believe James will get his business in track, and satisfy his customers.
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