Register  |   | 
 
 
 


Note: This topic is locked. No new replies will be accepted.


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 20 of 29     «   Prev   17   18   19   20   21   22   23   Next   »
dkirtexas

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,494
Reply with quote  #951 
The Preacher did not bring the subject of religion up.
__________________
Thx, glad to be here

Danny K "EL CAZADOR DE HIGO"
Waskom Tx Zone 7B/8

Wish list: anything anyone wants me to have. LSU RED.  Any LSU fig.
Vinny2210

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 584
Reply with quote  #952 
Since people are talking about religion which I have NO interest in and about politics which I find really interesting, I think you folks should watch this video about politicians benefiting from blighting the public with modern fake news.


__________________
Vinny

Bognor Regis, United Kingdom

Wish List : Callara, Cul Noir

My Ebay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/myb/Summary?MyEbay&gbh=1
livetaswim06

Registered:
Posts: 364
Reply with quote  #953 
Let's go to fig politics, are you a red fig, blue fig or undecided (purple) fig?
__________________
-Anton
Zone: 9b, Santa Clarita Valley, CA
Growing: Panache Tiger, VdB, Burbank & Vineland, Falls Gold, Strawberry Verte, Atreano, Fico Preto, El Molino, Very Unk. Mission
Garlic_Mike

Registered:
Posts: 395
Reply with quote  #954 
I thought blue were the fig police.
bamafig

Registered:
Posts: 208
Reply with quote  #955 
It took a minute, but Grumpy Cat came to James rescue as usual. Let me get the rope...
__________________
zone 8
4 (local) Celeste, Papa John, LSU Purple, Green Ischia, Brunswick, white marseilles,  BT,
Panache, Deanna, LSU Black, O'Rourke, Chicago Hardy

Wish list:  VDB, RDB
Lewi

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 352
Reply with quote  #956 
Quote:
Originally Posted by livetaswim06
Let's go to fig politics, are you a red fig, blue fig or undecided (purple) fig?


So what's a green fig, a Monarchist? Most Independents are not undecided BTW, but have equal contempt for hypocracy by any lable.






__________________
West Florida / Panhandle (Central time). Can get cold for figs...down to 12 F twice in last five years. Zone 8a, not counting the recent "upgrade"

Lewi = Levite
livetaswim06

Registered:
Posts: 364
Reply with quote  #957 
I think green fig would be something like panache tiger.
__________________
-Anton
Zone: 9b, Santa Clarita Valley, CA
Growing: Panache Tiger, VdB, Burbank & Vineland, Falls Gold, Strawberry Verte, Atreano, Fico Preto, El Molino, Very Unk. Mission
Lewi

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 352
Reply with quote  #958 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cponzi
Oh, geez.  Don't bring religion into this thread too! 

The only thing left is politics.  It's all because of Trump.  He hates women, immigrants, and figgers! 


It's ok my Figger, just one more delay! However, Thai Fig seems right about dormancy based on James own words, and I believe that James will eventualy come through. My guess is late spring for most, but it's just a guess...and I have been wrong before.






__________________
West Florida / Panhandle (Central time). Can get cold for figs...down to 12 F twice in last five years. Zone 8a, not counting the recent "upgrade"

Lewi = Levite
brianm

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,156
Reply with quote  #959 
Sorry to hear friend. I hope his toe is healing up.
__________________
Wish list: LUV
amis54

Registered:
Posts: 9
Reply with quote  #960 
For sure,there are no cuttings in stock, plants already waken up.  We will receive our cuttings on Nov..
The season is over. It is long Bollywood film.
Lewi

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 352
Reply with quote  #961 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kkk2210
Since people are talking about religion which I have NO interest in and about politics which I find really interesting, I think you folks should watch this video about politicians benefiting from blighting the public with modern fake news.



This is the real goal:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/fake-scholarship-and-the-future-of-americas-university/5580252



__________________
West Florida / Panhandle (Central time). Can get cold for figs...down to 12 F twice in last five years. Zone 8a, not counting the recent "upgrade"

Lewi = Levite
anekitoe

Registered:
Posts: 10
Reply with quote  #962 

James

you're always says "delay" from April 2016 to April 2017 and still "delay" to end of spring 2017 and it surely "delay" again.

could you give me money back? because you can't make it in time. i think i can't wait any longer

 

KyFig

Registered:
Posts: 116
Reply with quote  #963 
@anekitoe I believe somewhere in this mega-thread James (or someone) said to email James for a refund if you desire and to put in the subject of the email REFUND.
__________________
Wendy - from Central Ky 6b
 
brianm

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,156
Reply with quote  #964 
That's strange. I have had plenty young ones orifice striped figs. Also the new growth is striped.
__________________
Wish list: LUV
livetaswim06

Registered:
Posts: 364
Reply with quote  #965 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FigWhisperer
Speaking of Panache'. Has any of you experienced what I have? My Panache' from Dave Wilson Nursery also the Panache' from UCDavis haven't shown stripes on the branches yet. Also the fruit is just plain light yellowish green. Both plants are less than 3 years old. Do stripes appear after more maturity or is there anything wrong with the plants not showing stripes?


I have a panache tiger from Dave Wilson. New growth is not showing any signs of striping yet. The only figs I currently have are that, and a VdB from Dave Wilson as well. The only real difference I can see right now is that the panache has a white trunk vs dark brown for the VdB. Also, the panache has much shorter node distances.

__________________
-Anton
Zone: 9b, Santa Clarita Valley, CA
Growing: Panache Tiger, VdB, Burbank & Vineland, Falls Gold, Strawberry Verte, Atreano, Fico Preto, El Molino, Very Unk. Mission
livetaswim06

Registered:
Posts: 364
Reply with quote  #966 
My single panache has new growth that is all green. Does the orange and yellow striping come into play on older new growth? It's dark out now but I will get a pic of the new growth tomorrow.
__________________
-Anton
Zone: 9b, Santa Clarita Valley, CA
Growing: Panache Tiger, VdB, Burbank & Vineland, Falls Gold, Strawberry Verte, Atreano, Fico Preto, El Molino, Very Unk. Mission
brianm

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,156
Reply with quote  #967 
Quote:
Originally Posted by livetaswim06
My single panache has new growth that is all green. Does the orange and yellow striping come into play on older new growth? It's dark out now but I will get a pic of the new growth tomorrow.

Yes as it lignifies it will change

__________________
Wish list: LUV
dkirtexas

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,494
Reply with quote  #968 
How does a posting concerning James end up a discussion on Panache?
__________________
Thx, glad to be here

Danny K "EL CAZADOR DE HIGO"
Waskom Tx Zone 7B/8

Wish list: anything anyone wants me to have. LSU RED.  Any LSU fig.
livetaswim06

Registered:
Posts: 364
Reply with quote  #969 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkirtexas
How does a posting concerning James end up a discussion on Panache?


Well it's still fig based and a huge improvement over negativity. All that is a win in my book.

__________________
-Anton
Zone: 9b, Santa Clarita Valley, CA
Growing: Panache Tiger, VdB, Burbank & Vineland, Falls Gold, Strawberry Verte, Atreano, Fico Preto, El Molino, Very Unk. Mission
mfehmi

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #970 
I agree that it's better talking about Panache than all the negativity, but with all due respect gentlemans. I think it's better to open another post about Panache and leave this one only for James updates and related discussions.
Besides, I have a young Panache fig tree and I don't want all this information to be lost once everybody start to post their comments.

__________________
Wish list: Sbayi, Khurtmani, Figo Preto, Coll de dama Rimada,    Genovese Nero (Rafed's)

Zone 13

Mahdi
Figowitz

Registered:
Posts: 5
Reply with quote  #971 
Seriously, why do you people put up with this?
I have requested a refund through paypal and still no response.



__________________
just another fig grower
mfehmi

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #972 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Figowitz
Seriously, why do you people put up with this?
I have requested a refund through paypal and still no response.




Have you tried sending an email to James with the subject REFUND?
As far as I know, he is refundind people their money without going to paypal, but you have to put in the subject REFUND.

__________________
Wish list: Sbayi, Khurtmani, Figo Preto, Coll de dama Rimada,    Genovese Nero (Rafed's)

Zone 13

Mahdi
dkirtexas

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,494
Reply with quote  #973 
Many consider it less than good manners to hijack someone's thread with non related posts.  If the content offends, don't read the posts, everyone knows that this thread has been toxic for many pages.
__________________
Thx, glad to be here

Danny K "EL CAZADOR DE HIGO"
Waskom Tx Zone 7B/8

Wish list: anything anyone wants me to have. LSU RED.  Any LSU fig.
livetaswim06

Registered:
Posts: 364
Reply with quote  #974 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkirtexas
Many consider it less than good manners to hijack someone's thread with non related posts.  If the content offends, don't read the posts, everyone knows that this thread has been toxic for many pages.


This thread started with an offering of fig trees and was hijacked to whine and moan about it. Don't lecture me on manners, it's perfectly reasonable to discuss anything else while waiting for an update.

__________________
-Anton
Zone: 9b, Santa Clarita Valley, CA
Growing: Panache Tiger, VdB, Burbank & Vineland, Falls Gold, Strawberry Verte, Atreano, Fico Preto, El Molino, Very Unk. Mission
arachyd

Registered:
Posts: 256
Reply with quote  #975 
Well, I don't appreciate the notification to go look at a new post in a topic I'm following to see something completely unrelated. Hijacking a thread is bad manners, lecture or not.
__________________
Wish list: Dalmatie, LSU Gold, Ponte Tresa, 豐產黃 (Bountiful Harvest), DC-7

Zone 7b
FigWhisperer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 139
Reply with quote  #976 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfehmi
I agree that it's better talking about Panache than all the negativity, but with all due respect gentlemans. I think it's better to open another post about Panache and leave this one only for James updates and related discussions. Besides, I have a young Panache fig tree and I don't want all this information to be lost once everybody start to post their comments.
Point taken. my bad.

__________________
Frank Q.

Figs: Food from paradise

Wish-list:A good harvest :)

Now you can follow
http://www.facebook.com/LosAngelesFigForest
adipose

Registered:
Posts: 267
Reply with quote  #977 
It's no big deal to me, but it would be more useful to post about Panache in its own thread, since it will get mixed in with the other comments and thus harder to read about.

Panache is my favorite fig and it surely deserves its own thread :)

__________________
Wish List: niagara black, bordisotte negra, brogiotto bianco, Noire de Caromb, sweetheart fig
FigWhisperer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 139
Reply with quote  #978 
i'm cut and pasting my post to Panache thread.
meanwhile deleting my stuff.
thanks.

__________________
Frank Q.

Figs: Food from paradise

Wish-list:A good harvest :)

Now you can follow
http://www.facebook.com/LosAngelesFigForest
mfehmi

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 217
Reply with quote  #979 
Quote:
Originally Posted by adipose
It's no big deal to me, but it would be more useful to post about Panache in its own thread, since it will get mixed in with the other comments and thus harder to read about.

Panache is my favorite fig and it surely deserves its own thread :)


I see it that way too. Great information could be lost in all of this.

__________________
Wish list: Sbayi, Khurtmani, Figo Preto, Coll de dama Rimada,    Genovese Nero (Rafed's)

Zone 13

Mahdi
amis54

Registered:
Posts: 9
Reply with quote  #980 
Hi James,  I am still waiting for my cuttings ,if you don't have them in stock, simply  write . I will wait till Nov.
raimeiken

Registered:
Posts: 31
Reply with quote  #981 
anyone else get any shipment email update? 
__________________
Peoria, AZ 9b
Gardnernw

Registered:
Posts: 19
Reply with quote  #982 
Has anyone received an order yet? Supposedly Greenfin has been shipping for weeks now, but nobody has commented on anything actually arriving?

Has anyone actually received a refund? I have only heard of references to "I heard he gives refunds."
Louneo

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 102
Reply with quote  #983 
I had no problems at all getting a refund for my order.  I had already picked up most of the varieties I had ordered so sent him an email and he refunded the order for me.  I imagine the volume of emails James has been getting is more now than when I had requested a refund though.  He had asked that anyone looking for a refund put "Refund" in the subject line of their email to him.  Likely to make them easier for him to get to and handle quicker for those people.

But yes people have gotten their refunds when requested.

__________________

2017 Wishlist: CDDG, CDDB, Preto, Martinenca Rimada, Pastilliere, Figoin, Cavaliere, Bordissot's Thank you!

Gardnernw

Registered:
Posts: 19
Reply with quote  #984 
Today is April 10, I have requested a refund after having received no response to my e-mails.

I have read and seen the photos showing massive efforts to increase production to fill orders, and then of course there is the broken toe, and random explanations that things are taking longer than normal. Well, with all of those who placed orders over a year ago, plus Greenfin is still taking orders, then there must be enormous amounts of $$ flowing in. No money is going to pay the shipping costs so why aren't they hiring staff to answer e-mails?

When I get a refund I will re-post.
tsparozi

Registered:
Posts: 803
Reply with quote  #985 
I had no problem receiving a quick refund.... James was very responsive to my request for cutting order refunds; I did, however, put "Refund Request" into the subject line as James requested in an earlier post.
__________________
Tony - Zone 6A
WL- Martina, Calderona, Bon Jesusa, SantMartina, Bordissot Negra Rimada, Fiorone Oro (Rimada), Renyeca, Mata Soldats, Craven's Craving, Fibonacci Nero
brianm

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,156
Reply with quote  #986 
He's going to be shipping really soon. I can feel it..
__________________
Wish list: LUV
Nickdef

Registered:
Posts: 23
Reply with quote  #987 
I ordered 3 trees on 12/27/2015. Nero 600, black Bethlehem and JH Adriatic. I haven't heard a thing about shipping as of yet.
TheASTrader

Registered:
Posts: 105
Reply with quote  #988 
I'm afraid this is looking more and more like a ponzi scheme by the day, whether intended or not.  
__________________
USDA Zone 10a & 8b
Wish List: Bebera Branca, Ischia Black and as many else I can fit.
livetaswim06

Registered:
Posts: 364
Reply with quote  #989 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheASTrader
I'm afraid this is looking more and more like a ponzi scheme by the day, whether intended or not.  


Ponzi scheme means using new cash flow to pay out to yourself or initial investors. This is not at all a ponzi scheme. This is just a mismanaged business model which tends to happen in new businesses. The problem is further exacerbated by poor communication from James.

__________________
-Anton
Zone: 9b, Santa Clarita Valley, CA
Growing: Panache Tiger, VdB, Burbank & Vineland, Falls Gold, Strawberry Verte, Atreano, Fico Preto, El Molino, Very Unk. Mission
TheASTrader

Registered:
Posts: 105
Reply with quote  #990 
Quote:
Originally Posted by livetaswim06
Ponzi scheme means using new cash flow to pay out to yourself or initial investors. This is not at all a ponzi scheme. This is just a mismanaged business model which tends to happen in new businesses. The problem is further exacerbated by poor communication from James.



Pure semantics.

Ponzi scheme means using new cash flow to pay out to yourself or initial investors  


Cash flow
= revenue from 2015/2016 sales.

Pay out to yourself = previously undisclosed use of funds to build himself more greenhouses.  According to the advertisement, sale price was at cost.  There was no margin for profit to be used to enrich himself with expansion of operation.

Initial investors = 2015/2016 customer sales revenue now being used to expand operations beyond initial orders.  The money's been used.  Sale price was at cost.  2016/17 revenue must now be used to fulfill initial investors.  

Moreover, what's happened to the allocation of existing 2015 tree growth to fill cuttings orders for 2016?  Cuttings season is now over and an updated ETA has not been given. Did he just leave those existing trees' growth unpruned or were they reallocated to the propagation side instead of fulfilling orders.  

This is just a mismanaged business model which tends to happen in new businesses. 

This tends to happen in new businesses?  Not at all.  That's sugar coating it.  And this is more than just a case of more demand than expected and then poor communication.  This is not ethical business practice.

__________________
USDA Zone 10a & 8b
Wish List: Bebera Branca, Ischia Black and as many else I can fit.
hoosierbanana

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,295
Reply with quote  #991 
Luv is an Etna type. D'all Osso is Black Jack. Have a nice day.
__________________
7a, DE "While you were hanging yourself on someone else's words. Dying to believe in what you heard. I was staring straight into the shining sun"
adipose

Registered:
Posts: 267
Reply with quote  #992 
We had the Ponzi discussion earlier in the thread.

(Wikipedia)
Quote:
a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned through legitimate sources.


A traditional Ponzi scheme doesn't really seem to apply here, but one could certainly make the case that certain aspects of the definition could apply.

1. "Pays returns to its investors" ($7 fig trees is a "high" return)--No returns have been paid yet so this does not apply yet.
2. "from new capital paid to the operators by new investors"--Certainly new capital is flowing in as the page still offers for sale trees to be delivered in Oct. 2017.  If past performance is any indicator, these will not ship on time, but the offer of a rare tree in Oct. 2017 is surely attracting new capital.
3. "rather than from profit earned through legitimate sources."--Legitimate sources would be James' hard work to propagate these varieties and the investments he made in greenhouses, soil, fertilizer.  If the current trees cannot be shipped without the new money, then this could apply.


The classical definition of Ponzi fails because James is not paying out any returns, at all.  Therefore he is not giving the new buyers the false perception that they will make large returns based on the fact that old investors did.  In fact, the original investors are the ones complaining because they haven't received anything yet.  Despite James calling the $7 an investment, in reality they were more of a pre-order than an investment.  We will not share in his profits or reap the benefits of our invested capital any more than the original agreed upon deliveries.

If James starts shipping trees then we are closer to #1 being a reality.  But again, the definition fails, even if he is using 2018 money to fund 2016 orders.  There is no rate of return but a fixed delivery of what was ordered, nothing more.  This would better fit the definition of a "failed business model" than a Ponzi scheme.  In a business where pre-orders are pre-paid, the buyer takes a risk that the business can fail and their pre-order may be lost.

Regardless of what you call it, it is dishonest or perhaps delusional to take pre-orders for 2017/2018 if money has already run out for the 2016 orders.  Since we know $7 is not a realistic price to produce a fig tree, even in bulk, it is quite likely this is happening.  On the other hand, if James is going to put his own money in to make sure that everyone gets their orders, then all we have is extremely late delivery.

The very valid concern that w/o taking money for 2017 orders, James would have to shut down, is what leads people to the "Ponzi" term.  But since no one is running around thinking they got rich while being funded by new investors, it's not a Ponzi scheme at all but rather unhappy customers with extremely late delivery and possibly no delivery and a failed model.  Time will tell.

__________________
Wish List: niagara black, bordisotte negra, brogiotto bianco, Noire de Caromb, sweetheart fig
Gardnernw

Registered:
Posts: 19
Reply with quote  #993 
It's looking more like PT Barnam's famous quote..."There's a sucker born every minute."
growcrazie

Registered:
Posts: 4
Reply with quote  #994 
I ordered something like $60 worth of trees knowing that I would probably get them but it wouldn't break me if I took the chance and didn't get them. I ordered figs that I wanted but were so expensive that I would never pay the price. Now I at least have a chance to have a few nice trees that I probably would never have. Looks like he bit off more than he can chew but has taken steps to fulfill his promises just going to be late. 
livetaswim06

Registered:
Posts: 364
Reply with quote  #995 
I agree with Dan above who put it very clearly! Just to add to it a little, this business model is basically a kickstarter with people investing in the business with no clear plan for delivery. From the get-go James said this is a shaky business venture, but that he would do what he could to deliver. He really should have been more clear that the $7 per tree is not a pre-order for a set product, but an investment in a business with kickback in the form of a tree, IF the business works. If this all falls apart, which I doubt, it is really on the investor for taking a risk. 

Taking orders for a product not yet delivered to fund current operations is not really all that rare, it happens in tech all the time. As a complete aside that is essentially how Tesla is funding its operations (caveat, please do not discuss this point as it would be off-topic). 

__________________
-Anton
Zone: 9b, Santa Clarita Valley, CA
Growing: Panache Tiger, VdB, Burbank & Vineland, Falls Gold, Strawberry Verte, Atreano, Fico Preto, El Molino, Very Unk. Mission
adipose

Registered:
Posts: 267
Reply with quote  #996 
You are right--it is very similar to kickstarter.  Kickstarter has some rules though and the same structure isn't being followed here.  We don't know the amount of capital raised or how long the capital will be raised.  Deliveries are supposed to start while funds continue to pour in.  Contrast to kickstarter where a target is supposed to be met, then if it is met the product is created and money is collected.

Re: Tesla I agree we should not get into a debate about that.  But it is more of a deposit than a prepayment of the entire order, since they do not collect full price.

__________________
Wish List: niagara black, bordisotte negra, brogiotto bianco, Noire de Caromb, sweetheart fig
livetaswim06

Registered:
Posts: 364
Reply with quote  #997 
While kickstarter does have a target, it doesn't mean much and plenty of projects have gone on to use up all the funds and collapse. In this case it seems like the funds have gone on to create a huge amount of growing inventory. Eventually James will start shipping product, even though it might be at a pretty hefty loss to him. Cash flow modeling and projecting is the number one killer of start-up businesses. Based on what he has said though, it seems he is using personal funds to continue the progress. 
__________________
-Anton
Zone: 9b, Santa Clarita Valley, CA
Growing: Panache Tiger, VdB, Burbank & Vineland, Falls Gold, Strawberry Verte, Atreano, Fico Preto, El Molino, Very Unk. Mission
TheASTrader

Registered:
Posts: 105
Reply with quote  #998 
Quote:
Originally Posted by adipose
We had the Ponzi discussion earlier in the thread.

(Wikipedia)


A traditional Ponzi scheme doesn't really seem to apply here, but one could certainly make the case that certain aspects of the definition could apply.

1. "Pays returns to its investors" ($7 fig trees is a "high" return)--No returns have been paid yet so this does not apply yet.
2. "from new capital paid to the operators by new investors"--Certainly new capital is flowing in as the page still offers for sale trees to be delivered in Oct. 2017.  If past performance is any indicator, these will not ship on time, but the offer of a rare tree in Oct. 2017 is surely attracting new capital.
3. "rather than from profit earned through legitimate sources."--Legitimate sources would be James' hard work to propagate these varieties and the investments he made in greenhouses, soil, fertilizer.  If the current trees cannot be shipped without the new money, then this could apply.


The classical definition of Ponzi fails because James is not paying out any returns, at all.  Therefore he is not giving the new buyers the false perception that they will make large returns based on the fact that old investors did.  In fact, the original investors are the ones complaining because they haven't received anything yet.  Despite James calling the $7 an investment, in reality they were more of a pre-order than an investment.  We will not share in his profits or reap the benefits of our invested capital any more than the original agreed upon deliveries.

If James starts shipping trees then we are closer to #1 being a reality.  But again, the definition fails, even if he is using 2018 money to fund 2016 orders.  There is no rate of return but a fixed delivery of what was ordered, nothing more.  This would better fit the definition of a "failed business model" than a Ponzi scheme.  In a business where pre-orders are pre-paid, the buyer takes a risk that the business can fail and their pre-order may be lost.

Regardless of what you call it, it is dishonest or perhaps delusional to take pre-orders for 2017/2018 if money has already run out for the 2016 orders.  Since we know $7 is not a realistic price to produce a fig tree, even in bulk, it is quite likely this is happening.  On the other hand, if James is going to put his own money in to make sure that everyone gets their orders, then all we have is extremely late delivery.

The very valid concern that w/o taking money for 2017 orders, James would have to shut down, is what leads people to the "Ponzi" term.  But since no one is running around thinking they got rich while being funded by new investors, it's not a Ponzi scheme at all but rather unhappy customers with extremely late delivery and possibly no delivery and a failed model.  Time will tell.


Quote:
Originally Posted by livetaswim06
I agree with Dan above who put it very clearly! Just to add to it a little, this business model is basically a kickstarter with people investing in the business with no clear plan for delivery. From the get-go James said this is a shaky business venture, but that he would do what he could to deliver. He really should have been more clear that the $7 per tree is not a pre-order for a set product, but an investment in a business with kickback in the form of a tree, IF the business works. If this all falls apart, which I doubt, it is really on the investor for taking a risk. 

Taking orders for a product not yet delivered to fund current operations is not really all that rare, it happens in tech all the time. As a complete aside that is essentially how Tesla is funding its operations (caveat, please do not discuss this point as it would be off-topic). 


Both comments are a maze of speculative minutiae to obfuscate basics.  This is not Kickstarter.  The agreement, as written in Post #1, was breached.  This continual revisionist recharacterization of a simple agreement simply serves to legitimize and dilute.

But since no one is running around thinking they got rich while being funded by new investors, it's not a Ponzi scheme at all

"Rich" is a highly subjective concept to hinge one's deduction of what is and is not a Ponzi scheme.  What is "rich" to you might not be "rich" to others.



__________________
USDA Zone 10a & 8b
Wish List: Bebera Branca, Ischia Black and as many else I can fit.
adipose

Registered:
Posts: 267
Reply with quote  #999 
I concede I shouldn't have used the term "rich."  What I meant was that there is no fraudulent payout funded by new money.  There are just numerous orders and none have been fulfilled.  I used the term "rich" simply because I wanted to draw a distinction between dividends being paid out and simply getting what one ordered.

I don't see the situation as an investment situation.  I see it as orders which are late.  Certainly, I don't agree with taking new orders when you can't fulfill old ones, but I find it to be different than a Ponzi scheme.

In a traditional Ponzi scheme the initial investors are appeased by receiving payments funded by new investors, which lends credibility to the investment as well as keeps the second to last round of investors happy as long as the scheme can be continued.  That situation simply doesn't apply here.  Which is not to say at all that the situation is right.

__________________
Wish List: niagara black, bordisotte negra, brogiotto bianco, Noire de Caromb, sweetheart fig
TheASTrader

Registered:
Posts: 105
Reply with quote  #1000 
Quote:
Originally Posted by adipose
I concede I shouldn't have used the term "rich."  What I meant was that there is no fraudulent payout funded by new money.  There are just numerous orders and none have been fulfilled.  I used the term "rich" simply because I wanted to draw a distinction between dividends being paid out and simply getting what one ordered.

I don't see the situation as an investment situation.  I see it as orders which are late.  Certainly, I don't agree with taking new orders when you can't fulfill old ones, but I find it to be different than a Ponzi scheme.

In a traditional Ponzi scheme the initial investors are appeased by receiving payments funded by new investors, which lends credibility to the investment as well as keeps the second to last round of investors happy as long as the scheme can be continued.  That situation simply doesn't apply here.  Which is not to say at all that the situation is right.


initial investors are appeased by receiving payments funded by new investors

That's exactly what's happening here.  How are you not seeing this?  There are several posts here, including yours, that agree that without continual in-flow of orders, he would not be able to fulfill previous orders.  Structurally, that is a Ponzi scheme and exactly what you described above.  

As for the question of how has he benefited: an expansion of his operation with new hoophouses, a hire of a horticulturalist, time delays allowing existing 2015 trees to grow out more cuttings than he would not have had if he actually fulfilled the orders in time--all assets in which he has enriched himself with from proceeds from sales of fig futures contracts.

__________________
USDA Zone 10a & 8b
Wish List: Bebera Branca, Ischia Black and as many else I can fit.
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply