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Grasa

Registered: 09/07/12
Posts: 1,705
Reply with quote  #1 

Got these amazing LSU Purple and soon after I received them  (twelve days ago) i put roots (from my tree) at the very bottom in tiny sliver cuts, just enough to shove them in (some smaller than tooth pick) -  the 5 cuttings were in the same container over moss. 

In twelve days, it formed a full circle of callousing and it protruded the scoring marks, so, I removed the band and the graft seemed sealed.  So I planted in a cup.

So I decided to graft another in the same maner ( with green background).  Pictures were taken just before I secure them with the rubber band.

Attached Images
jpeg II_LSU_P._root_graft_callous._bands_removed.JPG (747.94 KB, 94 views)
jpeg II_LSU_P._root_graft_callous._bands_removed_2.JPG (785.61 KB, 64 views)
jpeg II_LSU_P._root_graft_callous._bands_removed_3.JPG (476.65 KB, 56 views)
jpeg LSU_P._root_graft.JPG (426.44 KB, 72 views)
jpeg LSU_P._root_graft_v.2.JPG (616.22 KB, 76 views)
jpeg LSU_P._root_graft_v.3.JPG (434.90 KB, 54 views)
jpeg LSU_P._root_graft_v.4.JPG (640.97 KB, 68 views)


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Grasa
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ForeverFigs

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Reply with quote  #2 
Grassa,
    It's great to see you back in the operating room again.  Your experiments are mind boggleing.  Please keep us posted on this.  The pictures are great.  I have grafting rubberbands and Parafilm from the nursery.  If you want some, let me know.  I wonder if useing roots from another variety will alter it from being LSU Purple.  Maybe it will be a mix of the two trees?  Or maybe its just a way to get soil nutrients into the cutting until it establishes it's own roots? 

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Vince
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Bass

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Reply with quote  #3 
That's an interesting experiment, root grafting is done on a few trees, but no one bothered doing so on figs. This have to be tried on trees with weak growth. You would accomplish the same results by grafting unto another tree.
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james

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Reply with quote  #4 

I have found that LSU Purple is a prolific root producer.  So much so, I decided if I needed to propagate for rootstock, it would be LSUP.  This tree started out as basically a rooted cutting.  When planted in Feb. it had two roots about 2-3 long each.  When I bare-rooted it the following Feb. it looked like this (that is a standard "pull apart" chop-stick sitting on top of it):



Here is a close up to show how dense the roots were (I had already cut off some of the length):


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gorgi

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Reply with quote  #5 
@grasa
That sure is one (rooting) technique not familiar to me (I never claimed that I am an expert!).
Please do let us know the end-result (~6 months from now?).

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FiggyFrank

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Reply with quote  #6 
Very nice work, Grasa.

P.S. - don't forget to send me your address via PM.

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Frank
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HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #7 
This is something that sure should be tried on Black Madeira.  Thanks for all of your experiments and photos, Grasa!  I wish you had nicer weather for figs to accommodate your love for figs.
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Harvey - Correia Farms, Correia Chestnut Farm, Figaholics, PurelyPoms, etc. Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14

NOTE: Essentially all of my figs from 2013 and subsequent have been caprified so fruits may be different than those grown in areas without caprifigs/wasps.

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george

Registered: 08/27/10
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Reply with quote  #8 
Grasa



Real cool stuff is the white powder rooting hormone?
Keep it up


George
gorgi

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Reply with quote  #9 
Curious George here...

I wonder what any alignment (if any) you used.
For example; I know that for wood-to-wood grafting, aligning both cambium-layers is very critical.
How about root-to-wood grafting?

And thanks for all your experimenting/research work/effort....

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Chivas

Registered: 09/06/10
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Reply with quote  #10 
Maybe it is good for black ischia, a healthy, vigourous cultivar maybe could help push some of the loss of vigour from the infection of it to produce some good branches?
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saxonfig

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Reply with quote  #11 
I'd been following Grasa's lead on this. I started a few of these last month just as an experiment. Looks to be working. I will have to post some pics later.

I plan to do a bunch more like this.
Reasons:
1). I've had better success with grafting than I have with rooting cuttings.
2). Also, I have a lot more  roots available than I do root stock trees .

@ Chivas. I've done some grafts with Black Ischia onto a  BT root stock but in the typical fashion. I plan to try a few more this spring on a couple of other root stocks that I know to be more vigorous.

I'm with you on this Grasa ;-) .

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Bill
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Boris

Registered: 02/04/11
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Reply with quote  #12 

Congratulations on your success Grasa!
Like George I am curious if you scrape or cut off the outer yellow layer of the root where it touches the cambium of the cutting. From the pictures it remains unclear.
Thanks,
Boris

Boris

Registered: 02/04/11
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Reply with quote  #13 
Bass,
What other trees you know that can be root-grafted?
Thanks,
Boris
DesertDance

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Reply with quote  #14 
I only know that LSU Gold has roots resistant to nematodes, and those with nematode ridden soil, could use it as root stock.  And with all Grasa's root grafting info, how can anybody lose?  LSU Gold is going high demand, trust me!

LSU claims that this fig has roots that are nematode resistant! This may be a very good asset as a root stock.  LSU Gold is a large yellow fig (35-50 grams)blushed with red and containing light red to pink pulp. The fruit has excellent flavor and good cold resistance. Tastes best in drier climates.  Has a small eye that leaks honeydew. For grafting other cultivars (when so prefered/possible), or where RKN is a major fig problem. 

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sammy

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Reply with quote  #15 

Great photos Grasa.
I've tried what you are doing and my cutting is on day eleven and the grafted root part has 1/4" to 3/8" new white root growth on it.
The root stock had been severed from the in ground pots for about a month and a half and still in the ground and then I pulled the roots out of the ground and put them in the fridge. After sitting in the fridge for a month and a half I finally grafted them on a semi dormant cutting.
I can't really see any callousing on mine though. Time will tell. This is fun anyways.

By the way, this is a Hardy Chicago cutting with a Kadota root.

Attached Images
jpeg roots.jpg (293.92 KB, 43 views)
jpeg roots_1.jpg (270.51 KB, 42 views)
jpeg roots_2.jpg (282.57 KB, 36 views)
jpeg roots_3.jpg (287.02 KB, 33 views)


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Sam zone 4 Thessalon Ontario, Canada WISH LIST: FLOREA,  BAYERNFEIGE VIOLETA, LAMPA PRETA

Grasa

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Posts: 1,705
Reply with quote  #16 

You all inspire me. We have bad weather here, so I must figure something to grow figs here, everyone that knows figs tell me I am wasting my time, as only few figs produce here. Well, if this works and the roots of a local tree can make the wonderful varieties produce, than more power to them.

Sam, I did that way in the beginning. I am not a biologist, nor have a clue where a cambium is, except from looking online. so, the only thing I did at first was to cut a slanting cut on both root and cutting - they worked!  But with time and experiments, I think this is the best so far - 12 days is great for the huge accomplishment when the other sibbling cuttings did not even show signs of rooting. If I have that big root you had, I would separate it in several little ones, shorter roots are easier to manipulate. Yours seem to have taken off nicely! Great job!

I attempted to push a toothpick between the outter layer and the white core, just enough for me to push in a small root, but that did not work, so for this shown above, i cut with blade and just loosen  the cut sideways with the tip of the tooth pick, in 3 areas. this cutting is not even  1/2" in diameter, so the is less than 1/4" between one cut and another.

  I prepared the root as for cleft graft, I washed them with soap and very warm water, and keep them in wet paper towel while I am working, so they dont dry out. the cut is made with slant on one side and a little exposed core and push it in the small opening of the cut and loosen skin. once firm in place i hold it tight and put all others in their cuts. This well calloused above had the band removed in 12 days! for the new one, I used compostable plastic - has a streach and breaks up easy, hoping this method will not require me to open the band (I noticed on other grafts that took long, the band constricted the new cutting - and was difficult to remove the bands, so I am moving away from them)

Vince, thanks for the offer, but I like to do my things the hard way, and I am a scavenger, recycling what is at hand. it is working so far, this is not a production nursery.

Yesterday I prepared 2 Natalinas- here they are with compostable plastic wrapping ( easier to work than rubber bands).

Of course, we won't know what this will turn out for  a few more years.

From my experiments, preparing the cutting with bottom cut just below the node and preparing the roots (we know roots alone will  not grow branches) - the grafted roots appear to trigger the cutting to root - seen how quick they are growing, is rewarding to me.

Attached Images
jpeg roots_grafts_in_the_box.JPG (699.22 KB, 43 views)
jpeg Natalina_1-2.JPG (678.70 KB, 43 views)


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Grasa
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sammy

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Reply with quote  #17 
Grasa, I'll have to try your method with the little roots on the end . It sure looks a lot easier. 
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Sam zone 4 Thessalon Ontario, Canada WISH LIST: FLOREA,  BAYERNFEIGE VIOLETA, LAMPA PRETA
pyxistort

Registered: 10/28/09
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Reply with quote  #18 
Grasa, I really hope this will help us to harvest figs from some tender varieties.  Looking forward hearing your grafting experience when we meet in the future.  
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Kirkland, WA Zone 7b/8a?
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jenniferarino83

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Reply with quote  #19 
Your little loop holes are interesting. I get bud, whip, side, bark, wedge and cleft grafts BUT root grafting? Now that's what I call "short-cuts". I confess, I find your grafting experiments a little scary but with results like this, your experiments have more leverage as far as convincment but that is just me. Only time will tell. I hope to see more successful results. You are doing great


P.S
I bud grafted Col de Dame Noir to BT 3yr old rootstock and another (Col de Dame Noir) whip graft on Paradiso rootstock. Still under evaluation.
Jennifer

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james

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Reply with quote  #20 
I'm not trying to be disagreeable or cause a stink.  I am, however, still a trying to understand the advantages of this process...

I see Bill's point about sometimes having more roots than rootstock, but is there more to grafting on roots than that?  In the past, we have been warned not to plant with the union close to or below the soil line.  This is because the rootstock has desirable traits for a rootstock and the scion wood has desirable traits for top growth.  For those trying this, are you hoping to eliminate or minimize "traditional" grafting?  Or is there an advantage to grafting roots which would more traditional grafting techniques obsolete? Or is it just something cool to try?

Thanks.

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sammy

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Reply with quote  #21 
James, for me it's just fun to try something different to see if it will work, but figs root easily so I'll continue on with the normal rooting way.



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Sam zone 4 Thessalon Ontario, Canada WISH LIST: FLOREA,  BAYERNFEIGE VIOLETA, LAMPA PRETA
ascpete

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Reply with quote  #22 
Grasa,
Thanks for sharing your info. Please keep us updated on the growth/progress of the cuttings.

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DesertDance

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Reply with quote  #23 
Grasa is so saavy!  She nails it, and we listen!  Keep it coming girl!
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rcantor

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Reply with quote  #24 
Grasa, if there were a Nobel prize for figs you'd get it.  Would you post pictures of the process?  Show us how you cut the wood and how you cut the root and how you put it together?  Thanks!

James, I think this is a great way to get hard to root cuttings without the risk of breakage or rootstock budding.

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Boris

Registered: 02/04/11
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Reply with quote  #25 
Bob,
With all respect to Grasa, the Nobel Prize would go to China as many US jobs went. Grasa was inspired by a picture of root grafting done by a Chinese person. However, she replicated the entire process without knowing the details, just based on her intuition and common sense.

Anyways, I doubght it is a new type of graft. Probably it was invented thousand of years ago and has resurfaced now on our forum as a well-forgotten old method.
HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #26 
Grasa, are your roots (root scions, I guess) dug from your garden soil just prior to grafting?

I've only tried root grafting of feijoa previously and it ended in failure.  I don't remember what lead me to give it a try but I remembered doing some searching online and finding that camellia are sometimes root grafted.  Since then I learned from a friend who grafted feijoa onto a seedling plant and then, after growing planted the plant with the union well below the soil surface and tying a wire around the stem below the graft union, encouraging the top to form roots.  Feijoa are sometimes challenging or very challenging to root so this is a method to get around that problem.  Since feijoa can sucker, I guess that is the reason for tying the wire around the stem.  The same might be true of the fig rootstock suckering, I suppose.

George, regarding alignment of the cambium layer, I've seen others use bark grafting methods where the scion was slipped under neat the bark similar to what Grasa is doing for roots and it works fine.  I think that since the bark is lifted up the entire gap between the wood and the bark acts as part of the vascular system.  In my chestnut rind bark grafts (see some photos at http://www.chestnuts.us/gallery.htm if you wish), one side of the scion is matched up with the stock's cambium layer but the other side of the scion is under the flap of bark.  Both sides of the scion form a union (signs of some unions are still visible today nearly eight years after grafting and becoming quite large, 6" or more in diameter).  So I think it's reliable to prepare the wedged root and slip it below the bark.  It's certainly appears to be working for Grasa.

James, I will give my views of the potential advantages even though you didn't ask me directly.  Some varieties of various species are known to tolerate wet soils or cold soils better than others and some seem more efficient at providing vigor while some will dwarf a plant.  I see all of these as being reasons why root grafting can provide benefits for some varieties of figs that might be grown in less than ideal conditions or, perhaps, a variety of low vigor.  I do not see a disadvantage of the union being planted below the depth of the soil as the grower will have a plant whose stock is facing conditions no worse than if it was rooted on its own roots but still getting the benefit of the grafted roots that are perceived to have some particular benefits.  This method probably has no long-term benefit over conventional grafting but a person may not have a rooted cutting or tree of the desired rootstock at the same time as when they obtain the scion they wish to grow.  I imagine I can dig up many roots from my LSU Purple for grafting tomorrow, if I wanted.  I recently purchased some potted trees at Home Depot primarily for the purpose of grafting to get faster production from my desired varieties.  I believe root grafting won't produce fruit as quickly but is a lower cost option.

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Harvey - Correia Farms, Correia Chestnut Farm, Figaholics, PurelyPoms, etc. Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14

NOTE: Essentially all of my figs from 2013 and subsequent have been caprified so fruits may be different than those grown in areas without caprifigs/wasps.

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lukeott

Registered: 07/23/11
Posts: 647
Reply with quote  #27 
I am not understanding the out come. I like the work done and think very good job, but once the real roots come out of scion it will feed from them. With this it will be roots from it's true scion with no advantage or disadvantage. My point is, your not changing the make up of the tree. I like that your are experimenting and documenting with pictures, from this we all learn.



luke
DesertDance

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Reply with quote  #28 
The only advantage I see is that some cuttings refuse to root, and with Grasa's method, she gives the cutting a chance to survive with a root bringing moisture and nutrients to it.  I think no matter which fig the roots come from, the cutting will produce the figs of it's own variety.  I'm not a rocket scientist for sure, but we do have this vineyard, and also grafted citrus and roses.  Any shoots coming from below the graft are considered suckers, and will take nourishment from the desired variety.  Root stock is usually pretty aggressive.  Not sure if a root on a fig would do the same as grafted grapes, roses and citrus.  Grasa will let us know, I'm confident of that:-))
Suzi

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Grasa

Registered: 09/07/12
Posts: 1,705
Reply with quote  #29 
Remember when I was given a "leaf cutting"? I was also given many roots... I planted them, it was warm outside.... they never sprouted anything, my leaf cutting died also.  Those things don't work.
Roots cannot by nature grow bark, leaves... So, in my own lay mind, I am with Suzi, I don't think the root  grafted will not alter the variety, or it should not.  I just want them to grow stronger and survive out cold and rain. I just came back from the outside.. the ground is frozen several inches deep, and my Fig Tree is happy as always. So is the several small trees I made from airlayers.  If I can make the new varieties grow half as good, I am satisfied. Thanks for all your comments. I like challenges and and love my figs.

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Grasa
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Reply with quote  #30 
I am pretty sure LSU Purple is the RKN resistant fig.
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james

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Reply with quote  #31 
I don't think I have any doubts the tree will come true to the scion wood and not the roots.  My concern was the root grafting method seems to have more room for problems than traditional grafting methods.  As I see there are three potential issues which are negated in a graft union being above the soil line.
  • Since the union is below ground, the cutting has the opportunity to produce it's own roots.  We already know the advantages for grafting onto a desired rootstock.  What happens if/when the cutting produces it's own roots?  Do you begin to/completely lose the potential for vigorous growth the rootstock would have provided you?
  • When the tree produces volunteers, how does one know which variety it is?
  • I'm sorry, I'm taking cold/flu meds (but I'm not sick) and they make me loopy.  I can't remember what I was going to type here.  When I do, I'll fill it in.
Anyway, to me it seems the wood to wood type of grafts have the potential to be more successful without many of the risks.  I think I will watch with admiration until some more of the advantages of this method begin to present themselves.  At the very least it is pretty cool.

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saxonfig

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Reply with quote  #32 
@ James.
Jack and Suzi both touched on some of the reasons why I thought this was a good idea.

Here are the reasons I"m trying it:
1) I'm hoping the well established roots will give a lowly cutting a "jump start". No worrying about delicate roots forming and possibly failing.
2) I'm thinking/hoping we ought to be able to do the root graft, pot it directly into your soil of choice, and water it in a more "normal" fashion (remains to be tested).
3) I have plenty of good roots available. More so than available trees to graft onto.
4) Gives me another (maybe more solid?) option for starting all of the cuttings that I have. 

As far as long term benefits such as a more vigorous root stock? I'm thinking this is where traditional grafting will continue to be more beneficial. Although Jack did make a good point. The roots that were grafted on should continue to carry whatever characteristics it had from the parent tree. In spite of the fact that the cuttings will, no doubt, form roots of its own eventually.

For example, if I were going to graft Black Ischia in hopes of it doing better on a more vigorous rootstock, I wouldn't do the root graft. I'd want it to depend entirely on the rootstock without forming any of its own roots. Just some of my thoughts....

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saxonfig

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Reply with quote  #33 
This reply is just a continuation of my last post really.

I remembered one more reason why I like this idea of root grafting. You should be able to use a much smaller piece of scionwood and still get good, if not great, results. Many of the grafts I've done on rootsocks outdoors have had only one or two nodes. That's all that's needed since the scion is being fed by the rootstock. I'm thinking something similar may apply here. Maybe to a lesser degree but that remains to be proven yet.

Grasa. I hope you don't mind but I was planning to link this thread to the other one I started that's similar to this.

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HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #34 
Bill, you're pretty darn smart! LOL, I just came here to post the same thing.  Tonight I grafted a portion of my Lebanese Red stick, using just one bud and did my first root graft of a fig.  I'm hoping it has better results when I tried root grafting feijoa a few years ago.  I also used a cleft graft to graft on another portion of the stick onto a potted Improved Brown Turkey and then used the final two bud portion of the same stick to root in the new bag method using Dip n Grow diluted 5x.

Attached Images
jpeg LebaneseRedRootGraft1c.jpg (241.38 KB, 36 views)
jpeg LebaneseRedRootGraft2c.jpg (247.17 KB, 26 views)


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Harvey - Correia Farms, Correia Chestnut Farm, Figaholics, PurelyPoms, etc. Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14

NOTE: Essentially all of my figs from 2013 and subsequent have been caprified so fruits may be different than those grown in areas without caprifigs/wasps.

https://www.facebook.com/Figaholics

Axier

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Reply with quote  #35 
Very interesting Grasa, thanks for posting, pictures are essential.
I have grafted figs many times, but never root grafting.
James, Bill has well summarized the advantages of this method.
In my opinion it is a good choice for difficult to root varieties and/or to save cuttings.
Take into account that grafted root are reserves saved from the cutting and available for leaves growth or other roots to form.
However, if you want to use a rootstock, you can not use this method, because the cutting will make new own roots, probably, in much more quantity.
For rootstocks, traditional method: "air grafting".

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Axier
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HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #36 
Axier, I've thought that the cutting might form roots later on but in cases where we are working with a variety that has low vigor, I'm not sure that they will be in greater number than the grafted roots.  In natural conditions, we see branches of a tree which can become dominant and I believe we "might" see stronger roots continuing to have dominance over the roots from the variety being grafted onto (the cutting).  That is a theory I have, anyways, and it would be interesting to test this much further.  Still, I think grafting onto an existing plant of rootstock is best but that plant is not always at hand.  I dug up roots at 11PM last night to try the root grafting.  Much easier to procure some roots than a rootstock plant, especially at that time of night. ;)
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Harvey - Correia Farms, Correia Chestnut Farm, Figaholics, PurelyPoms, etc. Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14

NOTE: Essentially all of my figs from 2013 and subsequent have been caprified so fruits may be different than those grown in areas without caprifigs/wasps.

https://www.facebook.com/Figaholics

saxonfig

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Reply with quote  #37 
@Harvey. As the saying goes. Great minds think alike, right?  I must admit though. I've been called many things but "smart" isn't usually one of them. Not unless it's followed by that little three letter word - "a##". LOL!

I think it was a good idea to wrap the entire piece with the Parafilm. Should give the small cutting the best chance for making it. Should also greatly reduce the possibility of any mold trying to grow on it.

Now Harvey. I really do hate being the first person to say anything but I know others will be thinking it also. Just in case you're not already aware of it, that root looks like it has a little RKN living in it. I hate being the bearer of bad news but it really does look like it to me. Anyone else notice that?

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HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #38 
Yes, I noticed that, but think it might be something else.  RKN is mostly a problem in sandy soils, I thought, and my soil is quite heavy.  The root came from a Panche tree that is quite vigorous.  I thought about digging around for some more but it was cold and dark at 11pm! ;)
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Harvey - Correia Farms, Correia Chestnut Farm, Figaholics, PurelyPoms, etc. Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14

NOTE: Essentially all of my figs from 2013 and subsequent have been caprified so fruits may be different than those grown in areas without caprifigs/wasps.

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Grasa

Registered: 09/07/12
Posts: 1,705
Reply with quote  #39 
Ground is frozen here!  I had many wood chips as mulch, but my chickens are scratching those chips. I tried getting more roots out there but cannot dig in that hard soil. My tree is so 'dead asleep'.
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Grasa
Seattle, WA
dmartin

Registered: 08/26/12
Posts: 155
Reply with quote  #40 
WOW!!!!!  Some amazing work!  It's fun to see several fig forum members following a similar thought pattern.  This is great.  Thank you for your working and adding to the body of the knowledge on this forum.  Inspiring effort.
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Doug :) Zone 7A

Wish list: That all my figs will produce a bumper crop next summer!
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