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Encanto Farms Nursery > Topics > Rooting method expierments, 2012 and 2013
 
 


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OctopusInc

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Posted Reply with quote  #1 

When I added figs to my botany collection in March of 2012 I was not completely sure how to root them.  This forum generally suggested a method using cups and compost/perlite mix, while other forums generally suggested using moist sphagnum filled boxes.  Everyone seemed to be consistently naturalist in thinking rooting hormones were bad--which had been the opposite of my experience with other plants.

I received 39 cuttings in 2012 from members here and from eBay.  Those cuttings were divided evenly into four groups: cups with hormone, cups without hormone, moist sphagnum boxes, moist sphagnum boxes with hormone.

 

Both sphagnum boxes rooted more consistently than the cups (19/20 vs 4/19).  I also observed that the group in sphagnum boxes with hormone grew roots much faster and much larger than the sphagnum boxes without hormone.  3/4 cups that rooted were also with rooting hormone.  My observation was that sphagnum boxes with rooting hormone (specifically Clonex rooting gel) was the best combination.

This year I have received an additional 50+ cuttings so far (with UCD yet to deliver and several on eBay I'm looking for).  Most of them I have rooted with tried-and-true hormone+sphagnum with great success.  Here are my experiments this year:

Rockwool in the lab: I received several very long Lyndhurst White cuttings from KK on this forum.  One of those cuttings I cut down into 1-node segments, scarified them, dipped in hormone, and packed them into rock wool cubes under my lights.  They have remained moist and with 24 hour light (so no mold can occur).  When I visited Al--better known as NortheastNewbie on this forum--he showed me where he had buried a log lengthwise because he is under the impression that it will shoot a tree from each node.  To explore his idea I buried one of the cuttings horizontally in a box of soil and put it in my basement under a 400w high pressure sodium lamp.  The rest of the Lyndhurst White all went into sphagnum boxes.  So far all 6 of the 1-node segments have rooted (picture here), no sprouts from the log experiment have been spotted, and all of the sphagnum box cuttings have rooted, but the 1-node rock wool cubes have far outpaced the sphagnum box in root production.  The Lyndhurst White took 16 days to root in sphagnum chambers, 9 days to root in rock wool cubes.  When I received two Black Madeira cuttings from tmc2009 this experiment was replicated.  Again they have all rooted and again the rock wool cubes have significantly outpaced the sphagnum chamber.  

 

The next thing I want to know is how much faster a cutting with 3+ nodes will grow than a 1 node cutting.  If the rate is similar then I will be thoroughly convinced that rock wool cubes with rooting hormone is a superior method to sphagnum chambers with rooting hormone.

 
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garden_whisperer

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Posted Reply with quote  #2 
Impressive report, i am waiting to hear how the log turns out. please keep us posted and great work.

Dave
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Posted Reply with quote  #3 
Let me first prequalify by saying my conditions were different than yours.  I've found that all cuttings root equally well in either spaghnum moss or perlite/potting mix.  Spaghnum moss took longer to root for me.  BUT I also had a heat source keeping the perlite/potting soil at ~75-76F AND had a different potting mix than you.
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Posted Reply with quote  #4 
Sounds like you got rooting perfected. Good work!
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Posted Reply with quote  #5 
Octo , just want to say thanks for sharing your information/work and pictures here on the forum .  ; )
Marc

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Posted Reply with quote  #6 
Really interesting, I rooted severall cuttings this year and I used the rockwool method with rooting hormone on cuttings which had more than 3 nodes. I got really good results and almost all of them rooted in a short period.
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Posted Reply with quote  #7 
Is rockwool expensive?
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Posted Reply with quote  #8 
Not really expensive, I got 50 for 15$
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OctopusInc

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Posted Reply with quote  #9 
Rockwool is pretty inexpensive.  Some things have a hard time penetrating it too.  For instance rose cuttings shoot a little tiny root then fail to penetrate the cube then die.  None of my rockwool figs have successfully penetrated through the cube yet either, but since one of my trees last year had no trouble penetrating a solid plastic container I have faith they will find their way.  :-)
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ascpete

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Posted Reply with quote  #10 
Thanks for posting and sharing this information with us. I have one question, What temperature were the cuttings for the different rooting test?

I did similar rooting experiments back in May 2012, (without rooting hormone) and came to similar conclusions. Start cuttings in Sphagnum moss to get callus and root initials (2 to 4 weeks), then transfer to cups for another 2 weeks, while maintaining approximately 75 Deg F at all times. By the end of the 6 week period the cup (at that time I used 20 oz cups) had a good visible root mass and the success rate was over 95%.

I have recently started an experiment, with and without Dip N Grow rooting hormone, and scored and unscored cuttings. I am at day 10 of the experiment and  all the hormone treated cuttings (scored and unscored) have root initials and some have a few roots. The untreated scored cuttings are also developing root initials, which I find interesting. They are in Sphagnum moss at a constant 75 -78 Deg F. in the dark.

I am also rooting a few large diameter cuttings with hormone and scoring, They have developed roots and root initials by day 8. I will be starting a Topic about this experiment, with progress pictures within the next week.

Again thanks for sharing and please keep us updated.
OctopusInc

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Posted Reply with quote  #11 
Pete,

My grow room is at a constant 71 F.  However I do feel that the cups in 2012 may have gotten a little too dry at one point and that may have led to the demise of several.  Scoring (scarifying) encourages root growth, but you want to make sure you don't penetrate the green layer under the hardened bark layer.  I usually drag a fork over them until I see the green layer but not down to the woody layer.  

I also have a 4 foot 20 pound RdB cutting/branch I am trying to root.  I expect it to fail, but will post all about it if it succeeds.
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Posted Reply with quote  #12 
Octopusinc,

Thanks for that info. I have observed that increasing the temperature (75-78 F) dramatically decreases the rooting time. With hormone my Moss time currently is decreased by 1 to 2 weeks ( 1-2 weeks in moss, on to cups for 2 to 4 weeks, then to 1 gallon pots).

The scoring experiment was designed to find the best scoring method for root development. Most literature says "score" without any actual description of how deep or wide. Your description is actually one of two score method that seems to work best for root development, I have called it "scrape" in my tests. The other is "slice" which is thin slits with the knife edge.


I have rooted up to 1-1/2 diameter branches 2 to 3 feet long with success. They were placed in 30 gallon clear plastic bags with Sphagnum moss without hormone. I am currently testing larger caliper branches with hormone, because I have collected 2 to 3 inch diameter branches from several pruned trees which I plan on rooting. So far the tests seem successful.
I have found the the Larger branches usually survive, If you can get the roots growing quickly, that is why I always note the (optimal) temperatures for rooting fig cuttings. If this temperature can be maintained for the first 4 to 6 weeks of growth the cuttings usually develop large root mass quickly.
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Posted Reply with quote  #13 

Way to go. LW looks good
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Grasa

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Posted Reply with quote  #14 
my fat trunk that I rooted, I did not use any moss at all.  I had a plastic tub, which I lined with crumbled  moist newspaper, I put the fat trunk over, it hang outside as it was too large, but there was plenty of air all around it, I crumbled more newspaper and cover the top, leaving pockets of air...and put the plastic tub inside of a black garbage bag and in a cabinet it went for a week, I opened just to give it a fresh air and mist a little if needed, it rooted amazingly.. and it has many branches and several grafts on it.
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snaglpus

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Posted Reply with quote  #15 
OP, hope you won't mind the abbreviation, great job!
Question......for those 6 rooted in the rock wool.....did you use those rock wool trays with the 12" dome lid for growth? The reason I ask is I plan on using rock wool this year. That hormone gel is MONEY! Cutting root faster and the roots are stronger! Did you use bottom heat? What were the rooting room temp? What was the rooting humidity for the rock wool?


thanks,
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OctopusInc

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Posted Reply with quote  #16 
Pete: In my opinion the best place to score is the opposite side of the node.

Dennis: I had them in a Tupperware container that was sitting in one of my dome covered carnivorous bog boxes.
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Posted Reply with quote  #17 
it seems you are putting the cuttings straight into cup with soil/perlite mix. my experience with that is it's very iffy. it works, but there will be possible failure for whatever reason (mostly rot for me... losing barks and so on after awhile. i had better luck with peat pot method with cutting bypassing baggie stage). best approach is to let the cutting seat in moist environment such as your s. moss set up or in baggie with paper towel for at least 2-3 weeks. i don't know what it does, but this seems to stimulate the root growth or something and even if i don't see the root, they will usually strike once moved into the soil mix. 

also as others have mentioned, temp around 75-80 is a good place for the cuttings to be at. using baggie method with paper towel, i usually have above 80% success rate. most of the failure for this spring was ones with terminal node that never opened, and i didn't feel like waiting on them. 
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OctopusInc

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Posted Reply with quote  #18 
Some updates on these experiments.  

The rock wool cubes have been more of a challenge than I expected.  When the Lyndhurst Whites rooted I buried their cubes in soil and put them out under my lights uncovered.  I figured they have a visible set of healthy roots so surely they can maintain their own moisture levels.  Big mistake.  They died over the next few days.  I had kept one back in the humidity box just in case something like this happened.  That one I treated exactly the same--buried the cube in a cup of soil--except it then stayed in the humidity box soil and all to acclimate.  This seemed to make a big difference.  It stabilized easily then I was careful to slowly acclimate it to my house humidity.  Started with the vents on the humidity box, then moved out and misted several times a day for a few days, and now its doing fine.



Not long after the Lyndhurst Whites showed their first roots I tried another experiment with a Jolly Tiger cutting I received.  This time I cut it into 3 2-node segments.  A problem that occurred with the LW was that they all shot roots but many of them did not seem able to shoot any above ground growth.  I hypothesized that this was probably because since they were 1 node that the only node was being used as a root engine and there were no upper nodes to shoot growth from.  2 nodes seemed like an upgrade.  

I also put these 2-node segments into cups of fig soil rather than rock wool (2:1:1 brown pine bark, perlite, compost, + a cup of Hoffman's 'super manure' chicken manure, some chopped live sphagnum, and a liberal dose of dolomite lime.)  The reason for this is that I have had problem in the past with rock wool in that it retains so much water and the stone wool is just so difficult for roots to penetrate.  



There were 3 of these cups.  One of them shot leaves right away, one molded and got mushy, and this one pictured still looks unchanged.  It is now my last hope for the Jolly Tiger.  The one with leaves I tugged at yesterday (stupid, I know) to see if there were roots since I didn't see any through the cup and it had been over a month.  As soon as I felt resistance I realized I had caused damage.  This morning all the leaves on that one had gone limp and began to wither.  I pulled that cutting out and it actually didn't have any roots anyway.   

Not long after the LW nodes--but before the JT nodes--I received 2 Black Madeira cuttings.  I wasn't about to go all in on an experimental rooting with $100 cuttings, but 50/50 is reasonable?  One of the cuttings got chopped into 6 2-node segments, the other was rooted tried-and-true scarified, dipped in Clonex, and in a dark moist sphagnum chamber.  

Here are the BM nodes today


5/6 shot roots.  5/5 rooted shot leaves.  Pretty solid.  Having learned my lesson from the LW acclimation failure I was very careful and just tried one of the rooted cubes into a soil cup.  This cup still lives in the humidity box but seems to have survived the transfer to soil just fine.


So it seems like rock wool 2-node starters are a lot better than 1-node starters.  And that if they are properly acclimated they will be stable in-soil trees in no time.  But is it really a 'better' way to root?  Its too early to tell, but the BM rooted the ole' tried and true way sure looks a lot better than all of the rock wool cube plants:


In fact, this Black Madeira looks better than every other fig I have rooted this season.  I think this may be because I was so invested into it and babied it the maximum amount.  Unlike other cuttings that root, then I put them in pots, then put them in the basement under lights; this one I kept upstairs in the main lab with a humidity hood until I saw lots of green growth *and* roots.  Then removed the cup and misted it 5/day for 3 days, then gave it another week before moving it to the basement.  

This brings me to my conclusion for today: overall rock wool cubes seem superior to soil cups for small 1-2 node cuttings that also have Clonex rooting gel, reverse osmosis water, and controlled light/humidity/temperature.  Also it seems that 2-node cuttings are better than 1-node cuttings because they seem to dedicate the bottom node as a root engine so a second node is needed for green growth.  

I cannot yet say if 2-node cuttings are better than a whole cutting rooted in sphagnum.  The test for this will be next year in the summer when I will measure the sum of growth from all the surviving Black Madeira 2-node cuttings and compare it to the sum of growth on the sphagnum rooted tree.  

But having observed the differences between the Black Madeira sphagnum rooted cutting that I babied with so much attention compared to all of the other sphagnum rooted cuttings that I have babied less this year, I can say for sure that more love is better than less.

Happy Valentine's day.  :-)
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JD

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Posted Reply with quote  #19 
OP,

A few questions regarding the how-to:
Is the bottom of the cutting even with the bottom of the wool?
Does the gel dry before you insert it into the wool and water?
Do you have a photo of the Black Madeira roots in the wool?

Thanks
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OctopusInc

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Posted Reply with quote  #20 
JD,

The bottom of the cutting is not flush with the cube.  Rock wool cubes have a hole in the top that goes to the center.  I dip them in gel then immediately plug them into the cube a little past when the rock wool resists--when the cutting is penetrating beyond the hole.  I do trim all of my cuttings right up next to the bottom node though.

No photos of black mad. roots in the wool.
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Growing: Pipo, Sicilian Red, Picolla Negretta, Red Lebanese, Ronde de Bordeaux, Galicia Negra, Violette de Bordeaux, Black Madeira, Celeste, Jolly Tiger, Figo Preto, Cole de Dame Blanc, Cole de Dame Gris, Sal's Gene,  UCD 185-25, Paradiso, Dark Portugal, White Madeira #1, White Ischia, Chicago Hardy, 

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Posted Reply with quote  #21 
i orderd some RootRiot cubes to try this year . also some clonex jell and some clonex rooting nutriant solution.

AUSTIN
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DWD2

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Posted Reply with quote  #22 
Greg, I have a couple of questions too.

Have you tried any other hormone prep(s) (Dip 'n Grow, etc) other than Clonex?
For the rock wool, you indicate you are dipping in Clonex. When one does that a lot of the gel goes with the cutting & will then flow down into the rock wool block. Do you make any effort to reduce the Clonex excess before placing in the rock wool block or into Sphagnum moss?
Do you try to minimize Sphagnum moss contamination with the Clonex?
Have you tried gently scored (as you describe above) versus unscored and/or deeply scored?

Thanks!
OctopusInc

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Posted Reply with quote  #23 

DWD2, I have used powdered dip'n'grow and just like Clonex gel more as personal preference.  Both worked fine for me.  I have tried scarifying/non scarified groups, and different levels of scarification including all the way up the cutting, between different nodes, at different depths, and frequencies.  So far my opinion is that the best scarification is between the bottom and first node deep enough only to expose the cambium layer.  I make no effort to reduce the amount of gel on the cutting before inserting beyond not letting it drip on my hand.  

I don't do anything to minimize the Clonex coming in contact with sphagnum.  I lay my cuttings directly in the moss and cover them.  This way the sphagnum prevents mold from inoculating the sterile gel.
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Posted Reply with quote  #24 

Recap: over the winter I had purchased 2 Black Madeira cuttings from a fellow f4f member.  One of those two was rooted with the tried and true method of sphagnum chambers, the other cutting chopped into six small nodes and planted in rock wool cubes under lights.  After rooting they were all placed in cups under the same lights and had identical environments since except that the sphagnum rooted cutting needed to be repotted to a 5g pot in April.  

In the short run it seemed as though the standard cutting would surely outpace the rock wool cuttings.  To skew things more, half of the rock wool nodes died between rooting and now.  Still, it seems that the rock wool cubes have produced more plant material overall even with the casualties.  

[Android134_zps2f6f1068]
Black Madeira grown from full cutting, in 5g pot.

[Android143_zps72692213][Android131_zps747bd44b][Android122_zps58c5fa52]
Three survivors each grown from 1/6 of a cutting, in 1g pots.
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Posted Reply with quote  #25 
This thread has all kinds of useful information, especially for a neophyte (me).
Thanks a bunch.
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Posted Reply with quote  #26 
This is a great thread.
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Posted Reply with quote  #27 
Greg
Great stuff. Really enjoyed your research and you BM's look great. Congratulations my friend
Coop
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Posted Reply with quote  #28 

7/4/14 update:  I had three 1g survivors from the root cube experiment.  This winter I sold one, but that one died frozen in transit due to USPS losing the package for nine days...  So I sent a replacement in May leaving just one survivor from the 6 root cubes, and the one grown from a full cutting (let's call that one BM1).

But that survivor is now larger than BM1 side by side, and has two healthy vigorous shoots.  Here it is side by side with BM1 (she's the one with the purple fruit.)

Now, in BM1's defense, she's been growing fruit all year and that takes a whole lot of energy.  But the survivor is grown from 1/6 the amount of wood BM1 is grown from.  It is worth noting that this survivor was the shortest of the three I had.

So I think by now it is fair to say that the node cuttings in rock wool grew more tree faster than the one grown from the tried and true root chamber method.  But the rooted cutting is much thicker and fruiting.  At least for now... 


[005_zpsaf9147b2] 
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Posted Reply with quote  #29 
How does BM1 compare now to the lone root cube survivors, 2 years on?
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Posted Reply with quote  #30 

BM1 died last year to root shock when I was stupid in transplanting it in July.

 

The first root cube survivor is 6 and a half feet tall and is my biggest tree right now, my second BM mother tree is also one of the root cubes from back then.

 
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Posted Reply with quote  #31 
Thanks for the update. Sorry to hear about the BM1's ultimate fate and congrats on having such mature Black Madeira trees! I see you also grow White Madeira. What are your thoughts on White Madeira as a mutation of Black Madeira? Taste differences?
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Dan, West Central FL 9a

Wishlist- Great tasting dark or light figs with deep red interiors: White Madeira, Craven's Craving, Portugal Black Madeira, Sultani, Violeta, USDA Black Ischia, Dall'Osso, CdDB or CdDB-N
OctopusInc

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Posted Reply with quote  #32 
I just got my white madeira in the mail 2 days ago and potted it up.  Won't have fruit for some time! 
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Growing: Pipo, Sicilian Red, Picolla Negretta, Red Lebanese, Ronde de Bordeaux, Galicia Negra, Violette de Bordeaux, Black Madeira, Celeste, Jolly Tiger, Figo Preto, Cole de Dame Blanc, Cole de Dame Gris, Sal's Gene,  UCD 185-25, Paradiso, Dark Portugal, White Madeira #1, White Ischia, Chicago Hardy, 

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Posted Reply with quote  #33 
Ahh, I didn't know. Once again congratulations are in order. The only thread I read about it had been Tam's and wanted to see the similarities and differences. Definitely report on its progress in the future.
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Dan, West Central FL 9a

Wishlist- Great tasting dark or light figs with deep red interiors: White Madeira, Craven's Craving, Portugal Black Madeira, Sultani, Violeta, USDA Black Ischia, Dall'Osso, CdDB or CdDB-N
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Posted Reply with quote  #34 

Mine is from Tam!

 

Actually I got it from Rewton who got it from Tam.  Thus "white madeira #1"
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Growing: Pipo, Sicilian Red, Picolla Negretta, Red Lebanese, Ronde de Bordeaux, Galicia Negra, Violette de Bordeaux, Black Madeira, Celeste, Jolly Tiger, Figo Preto, Cole de Dame Blanc, Cole de Dame Gris, Sal's Gene,  UCD 185-25, Paradiso, Dark Portugal, White Madeira #1, White Ischia, Chicago Hardy, 

Want: Sumacki (bass's), anything that produces like a boss in Ohio!

I am both Octopuslnc & EclecticBotany on eBay 
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Posted Reply with quote  #35 
Cool. I tried to get more info. from Tam, but apparently he's not active here anymore. It will be interesting to see behavior differences as it grows into maturity.
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Dan, West Central FL 9a

Wishlist- Great tasting dark or light figs with deep red interiors: White Madeira, Craven's Craving, Portugal Black Madeira, Sultani, Violeta, USDA Black Ischia, Dall'Osso, CdDB or CdDB-N
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Posted Reply with quote  #36 
Same situation, I tried to contact Tam for a while and ended up with the same result that he's been inactive for a while.
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Growing: Pipo, Sicilian Red, Picolla Negretta, Red Lebanese, Ronde de Bordeaux, Galicia Negra, Violette de Bordeaux, Black Madeira, Celeste, Jolly Tiger, Figo Preto, Cole de Dame Blanc, Cole de Dame Gris, Sal's Gene,  UCD 185-25, Paradiso, Dark Portugal, White Madeira #1, White Ischia, Chicago Hardy, 

Want: Sumacki (bass's), anything that produces like a boss in Ohio!

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OctopusInc

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Posted Reply with quote  #37 
Worth nothing, the BM rock wool nodes are just producing fruit for the first time this year.  The cutting produced fruit at least a year earlier.  But the rock wool node that is now over 6' has many fruit.  I'll get some pics later this month.
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Growing: Pipo, Sicilian Red, Picolla Negretta, Red Lebanese, Ronde de Bordeaux, Galicia Negra, Violette de Bordeaux, Black Madeira, Celeste, Jolly Tiger, Figo Preto, Cole de Dame Blanc, Cole de Dame Gris, Sal's Gene,  UCD 185-25, Paradiso, Dark Portugal, White Madeira #1, White Ischia, Chicago Hardy, 

Want: Sumacki (bass's), anything that produces like a boss in Ohio!

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Posted Reply with quote  #38 
Whenever you have time. I appreciate it. At this point, I value Black Madeiras that actually grow, establish themselves, and mature. Fruiting a year later than cuttings is okay. Your rooting method is one of a few I am evaluating, which is economically feasible to create lots of viable wood, to establish an orchard. The long term goal is to have so much fruit that I can make Black/White Madeira jam. : )
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Dan, West Central FL 9a

Wishlist- Great tasting dark or light figs with deep red interiors: White Madeira, Craven's Craving, Portugal Black Madeira, Sultani, Violeta, USDA Black Ischia, Dall'Osso, CdDB or CdDB-N
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Posted Reply with quote  #39 
I had been advised that the white madeira doesn't taste like black at all, which makes sense.  It's just that the leaf looks similar is my understanding thus far.  But we will see!
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Growing: Pipo, Sicilian Red, Picolla Negretta, Red Lebanese, Ronde de Bordeaux, Galicia Negra, Violette de Bordeaux, Black Madeira, Celeste, Jolly Tiger, Figo Preto, Cole de Dame Blanc, Cole de Dame Gris, Sal's Gene,  UCD 185-25, Paradiso, Dark Portugal, White Madeira #1, White Ischia, Chicago Hardy, 

Want: Sumacki (bass's), anything that produces like a boss in Ohio!

I am both Octopuslnc & EclecticBotany on eBay 
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Posted Reply with quote  #40 
Ok. Bummer. I was hoping it is a mutation that affects the color and not the taste. Once it fruits in a year or so, we will have a definite answer.
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Dan, West Central FL 9a

Wishlist- Great tasting dark or light figs with deep red interiors: White Madeira, Craven's Craving, Portugal Black Madeira, Sultani, Violeta, USDA Black Ischia, Dall'Osso, CdDB or CdDB-N
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