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K6MZMarion

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Posted Reply with quote  #251 
A friend sent me this great article.

Airing out the truth on dissolved oxygen in hydroponics / Just 4 Growers

http://www.just4growers.com/stream/hydroponic-growing-techniques/airing-out-the-truth-on-dissolved-oxygen-in-hydroponics.aspx
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Posted Reply with quote  #252 

  By sharing successes and failures, we hope to guide other's paths around the pitfalls of our hard-learned lessons.  But, again, it's the smallest of unbeknownst deviations that I continue to believe is all that is necessary to alter a successful recipe, hence, my caveat in adopting all of these 'Better Mousetraps' remains: Your Mileage May Vary! 

   (I eagerly adopted the cloners, as I have had just a little smidgen of experience with hydro-ag, having pioneered and operated an aquaponic operation in the past as a side-line business.)

   Here is my personal reason for shying from the practice of using Hydrogen Peroxide in these cloners:

    Contrary to some advocates persuasive argument, H2O2 does not merely enrich the oxygen in the plant's water.  Peroxide is citotoxic. (It kills both plant and animal cells.  Particularly newly formed cells)  As an intensive care RN, I realize that peroxide was at one time used to disinfect superficial wounds.  This practice ceased after studies revealed how toxic the solution was to newly-forming cells at the wound site, and that the substance promoted scaring.  In addition, gram-negative bacteria, responsible for the production of endotoxins, and which utilize a substance close to peroxide for their cell duplication, are highly adaptive at becoming resistant to antibiotics, and have been found to utilize the low-dosage hydrogen peroxide to develop a resistance to it, thereby becoming immune to its disinfectant properties.  These bacteria, responsible for many pneumonias, would then thrive in the cloner environment. 

  Anyway...   this was my reason for using chlorine vs hydrogen peroxide.  I was unfortunately oblivious to the fact that my chosen product had been adulterated with lye.


   Who knows?.......   these little guys may survive despite my efforts to kill them all off.

 
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Posted Reply with quote  #253 
Would it not be better to use an air pump and stone to oxygenate the water. I have to believe the less chemical the better. JMO.
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Posted Reply with quote  #254 
I'm terribly confused as to why there is any need to oxygenate the water.

The cloner sprays water/mist at the roots which are otherwise fully exposed.  How much more air could be needed?

Andrew (the 'not the science guy')
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Posted Reply with quote  #255 
Thanks Blue!

The reason I add hydrogen peroxide is because my hydroponics shop told me too. They said, it cuts down on the bacteria and alge build up. With the tiny amount I add, I seriously doubt it is helping. The cuttings don't stay in the cloner longer than 8 weeks. However, if I left them in longer, I know alge build up will be massive.
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Posted Reply with quote  #256 
I should have been more clear.  I understand the desire to reduce harmful mold/bacteria/other growth.  I'm questioning the rationale behind 'it adds more oxygen'.

Andrew
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Posted Reply with quote  #257 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyInNYC
I should have been more clear.  I understand the desire to reduce harmful mold/bacteria/other growth.  I'm questioning the rationale behind 'it adds more oxygen'.



Andrew,  the link that Marion supplied, addresses dissolved O2 in the reservoir of flood-bed hydroponics.  The added air bubblers only find their worth in aeroponic cloners when roots are totally submersed in liquid.  One can't improve on aeration with the mist/spray operation if the roots are suspended in the atmosphere.  Even commercial water treatment plants use spray aerators in their operation.

  Blue
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Posted Reply with quote  #258 

  Dennis, I hope that you didn't take my post as criticizing your practice.  The proof of your success is in your plants.  I'm in awe of your accomplishments.

   I purposely began the post by saying :   Here is my personal reason for shying from the practice of using Hydrogen Peroxide in these cloners. 

  I've learned a massive amount of knowledge from the experience of those that contribute here, and would be the last one to believe that I know more than anyone else.

   Blue
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Posted Reply with quote  #259 
No. I didn't Blue. It's all good! Thank you for your kind words. I'm so glad to see others are having success with these cloners. I just had to share what I did.
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Posted Reply with quote  #260 
Hey Jerry,

I just use the test kit for my swimming pool.  The lowest color on the chlorine scale is equal to 0.5 ppm.  They make another kit that will read down to 0.2ppm but it is a lot more expensive.  You can probably eyeball 0.25 ppm if you want.  You don't need the entire kit I have for the cloner.  This one is the cheapest that reads free chlorine, which is what you want to know for disinfecting power.

http://www.amazon.com/Taylor-Basic-Residential-Pool-Water/dp/B00305A0QG/ref=sr_1_63?ie=UTF8&qid=1453343565&sr=8-63&keywords=taylor+test+kit

You won't be able to use the PH portion of it since it only reads from 7 to 8 and optimal for plants is more like 5.5 to 6.5 ish.  I posted a link to a good PH adjustment kit a while ago in this thread.

Hey Dennis,

you are probably correct about over thinking the cloner thing.  But then again, the cloner thing at all is over thinking rooting figs.  Mai's bag technique looks "dirt" simple and also seems to solve the fungus gnat issue.  But for me I am interested in the cloner for cloning green cuttings of other plants as well as the figs.  I may or may not continue to use the pool shock in the future.  It has definitely taken care of my slime issue.  The question for me is does it retard or damage the cuttings in any way?  It is no big deal for me to add it and gives me something to do while the cuttings root.  I agree it is probably not needed at all if the reservoir temperature is kept cool enough.  I turned the temperature up a little on mine thinking it would accelerate the rooting process.  It seems to have definitely accelerated the slime growing process.


Dan
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Posted Reply with quote  #261 
Hi,
I read in a post, that people were adding clonex to the water/ on cuttings.
Normally, it is written on those products "don't breath near the bottle", "don't touch/avoid skin contact" , "wear gloves".
With the cloner you're spraying the water and the chemicals into the air ... Probably not a good idea ... Rooting hormones are not a safe product - it is a dangerous one when misused - read the label.
Chlorines are ok in the water, but I wouldn't use rooting hormones - just my take on it - stay safe .

As for oxygen in the water, for the exotic fishes, we use the bubblers to turn "nitrites" to "nitrates" and break the crust that may appears on the surface of the water. Refer to the cycle of nitrogen in the water. The breakdown is done by bacterias that one needs to introduce to the tank first. They call that process: to cycle the tank.
"Nitrites" are not usable by plants and can kill fishes. "Nitrates/nitrogen" are used by the plants in the tanks, so is safer.
In the cloner, as long as you replace some water every week, you should be safe. If you don't, the first problem might be a bad smell from the water after say a month of making no replacement at all. Algae growth produces a bad smell after a while.
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Posted Reply with quote  #262 
Dennis, about how much peroxide do you use...estimated?
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snaglpus

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Posted Reply with quote  #263 
Meg,
A teaspoon every 3 days.
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Dennis
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smatthew

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Posted Reply with quote  #264 
Sorry to jump in late, but that link posted in #251 is soo very wrong.  The author asserts that "if we bubble air through the water then we raise the pH and force the DO level down over time". I've taken enough aquaculture courses to know that's very very wrong. I'm suspect of most of that article.

In my opinion - I wouldn't use bleach or hypochlorite in a reservoir.  Peroxides in small doses are better. Both will oxidize roots, which isn't a great thing. 

In soil, I've seen calcium peroxide used when planting trees - it slowly breaks down and provides additional oxygen in the soil which the roots appreciate. But most of it's oxidizing power is used up on the organic matter in the soil, not on the roots.

As for air in a cloner - if your cloner is a sealed box, you need to introduce air somehow. An air pump will do the trick. Some cloners run a fan. Otherwise the oxygen levels will drop as it's consumed by the cuttings and bacteria.

Ok, I'll get off my box and stop preaching now ;-}
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DaveL

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Posted Reply with quote  #265 
Matt, it is not preaching. I for one appreciate all the imput given as this is totally new to me. Thanks
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Posted Reply with quote  #266 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveL
Matt, it is not preaching. I for one appreciate all the import given as this is totally new to me. Thanks



  I feel the same, Scott...  between all of us, hopefully we'll make one whole person!


   Should I look for you in Santa Rosa tomorrow?  They've asked me to work their scion exchange as well.  (A four-hr drive at O'Dark-thirty...   what fun!!   LOL!
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Posted Reply with quote  #267 
Matt, it's all good.  I don't think you're preaching.  All comments are welcome.  Thank you.
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smatthew

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Posted Reply with quote  #268 
Blue - Yeah I think i'll be there. I hear they have cider apple scions.....
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danw

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Posted Reply with quote  #269 
OK Fine!  You guys are freaking me out.  I just changed out the water and dropped the temperature to 68 degrees.  I guess that is where water holds the most oxygen?

Anyway I will see how this goes.  I am slapping in some cuttings from my Osborn Prolific for an experiment.  I will get the cuttings nice and full of roots, then I will soak one of them in plain water and the other in water laced with the pool shock at 0.5 ppm.  I will then take lots of pictures and document what happens to each of the cuttings.


Dan
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Posted Reply with quote  #270 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danw

  I am slapping in some cuttings from my Osborn Prolific for an experiment.  I will get the cuttings nice and full of roots, then I will soak one of them in plain water and the other in water laced with the pool shock at 0.5 ppm.  I will then take lots of pictures and document what happens to each of the cuttings.


  Dan,  you 'da Man!

   You even picked the perfect guinea  for the experiment... my O/P is the blandest fig growing on my place.  It is now simply a mule for grafting slow growers. 
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Posted Reply with quote  #271 
I am a little behind everyone, but my cloner is coming along.  I was surprised at how long it took me considering the idea is so simple.  The devil was in the details.  Cutting the holes in the lid was easy, but de-burring and sanding the holes to make sure the plastic chips didn't clog the spray nozzles was quite the pain.  As with everyone else who purchased the Lowes special, my lid leaked.  I double wrapped in weather stripping and the leak is almost gone.  But when I check the basement floor, I see a dark circle meaning there is a tiny drip.  I am running the system with bleach and water tonight, then I will rinse and run tomorrow night.  Should be ready to go by Sunday.  But now I am afraid to put all my cuttings in as I don't want to kill them with temperature, oxygen, negative ions, free radicals, or some other strange issue.  I think I will do one cutting of each plant and hold some back.  The spring is still a long time off.  I also bought PVC pipes to create an enclosure and hang grow lights.  I want to see how the plants progress post cuttings.  From what I've read, that's when plants benefit from this system.  Getting close!  I purchased peat plugs that are supposed to be for growing seeds.  I may have tomatoes by March!
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Posted Reply with quote  #272 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smatthew
Blue - Yeah I think i'll be there. I hear they have cider apple scions.....


  We'll be sanitizing the apple and pears prior to opening the doors...  if I see it come though, I'll bag some scion for you.
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Posted Reply with quote  #273 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemalibu

 my O/P is the blandest fig growing on my place.  It is now simply a mule for grafting slow growers. 

Exactly my sentiment.  Any cool cuttings that don't root are getting grafted to the OP as a last ditch effort.
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Posted Reply with quote  #274 
Andrew, could you post some more info on the peat plug you purchased for the cloners. Thanks
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Posted Reply with quote  #275 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveL
Andrew, could you post some more info on the peat plug you purchased for the cloners. Thanks

This is what I found:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002IU8K2?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00

Here is a question/answer surrounding seeds:

Question:
CAN BE USED FOR ROSE SEEDS?
Answer:
 Yea, you can use these to germinate any seed that fits inside. Just keep it moist and store in a warm, dark place until they sprout. The largest seed I've used is green beans, and it worked great for me. I've also had success with plain sponges, just cut them to size, cut a slit in the center, add seed + water + darkness. These are definitely the best thing on the market I've used to start seeds and clone plants. see less
By Invisitr0n on August 16, 2013








Disclaimer: I have almost no experience with anything I post regarding growing.  I regurgitate what I read.  But this seems like it has potential.
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Posted Reply with quote  #276 
What prevents the peat dust and loose particles from contaminating the water in the cloner and clogging the spray heads?
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Posted Reply with quote  #277 
I haven't tried it yet, but will be able to report back by next weekend.  the person responding to the question stated they had success with sponges.  if the peat does fall apart, sponges might be a better alternative.
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Posted Reply with quote  #278 
I finally got the cloner project completed and the delays were fortunate because I got a lot of information from everyone here.  I added a humidity tent and surrounded in insulation to keep plants warm in my basement.  See pictures below.  I need to work on the insulation.  I also used the rapid rooter plugs to hold seeds and they seem very sponge-like and do not appear to be breaking down.  they were smaller than the 2" cups and I wrapped them in paper towel to increase circumference and prevent water spray.  I have the water temperature set at 74 and the ph right at 6 (which I learned from this thread).  I am slowly lowering temp to get it closer to 70.  I have one of Blue's 3Xcrown and a cutting from Garlic Mike.  It was originally in soil with plants, but since there were no roots, I cleaned it and added it to cloner.  Oddly, neither cutting seems to be doing much after a week.  I am expecting some Desert King cuttings from Shirley, when they arrive, I will try rooting in cloner and zip-lock and compare results.

I have a question.  When adjusting water heater, I noticed the heater was slippery i.e. slime starting to form.  I have a chlorine tester and Clear-rez on order, but it hasn't arrived.  I added 3 capfuls of 3% peroxide to 13 gallons of water (bin is 1/2 filled).  Would that be enough to take care of the slime until the chlorine arrives?  would it be OK to raise Chlorine higher than .5 ppm?  Like 1ppm for a short time to get rid of the slime?

I originally started this project with my teenage son as a science project.  He lost interest almost immediately, but I am fascinated.  I am expecting the DEA to knock on the door any day.


 IMG_0252.JPG  IMG_0258.JPG 

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Posted Reply with quote  #279 
Aporto - check post#180 by coop, he linked some good reads from the grass forums on alternatives to clear rez, using pool shock and the quantities to use. 
http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1290319953&postcount=180

I think you can raise the PPM safely without impacting the cuttings, from what i researched on the grass forums, it helps people run higher temps and preventing slime. The peroxide might not help as much as the shock/clear-rez for the slime buildup.

Hope that helps, i believe my towns water has chlorine added, but i might get pool shock just in case to ensure no slime buildup.

Edit: BTW - love the setup and growtent!
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Posted Reply with quote  #280 
Matt,

Thanks for the post and links.  The links seem to make a pretty strong argument for CL!  I thought the slime was a nuisance but from the posts in Yours/Coop's links, people are saying slime is a plant killer.  People with well water (which I have) do much worse than city as city water is heavily chlorinated.  In fact there was a post here where someone said they cooked their cuttings by keeping temps at 80.  The pot links state that 80 degree temperatures don't kill cuttings, but they promote bacteria growth which kills cuttings.  Also, I thought $35 / quart for chlorinated water was expensive, but after reading Clorox has Lye in it, I didn't want to risk losing everything.  I think I will be getting some HTH ASAP.

Thanks again and thank you to all.  Who would have guessed there was so much science in this stuff?  Reminds me of a time back in science class when we used to ask, "When are we ever going to use this stuff?"  The answer is Always, Everyday, we just didn't know it.
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Posted Reply with quote  #281 
.. And ...
One more use for Clorox, I dump a few capfuls into the bottom of my humidity tub once per week and I swear it kills the fungus gnats and the plants tolerate it well.  I received several plants and an apology because they had a gnat issue.  I added the plants and the gnats were there, but after a week, only a handful remain.

Plants.JPG 

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Posted Reply with quote  #282 
APORTO

Personally I am now running at 68 degrees because when I ran at 74-75 degrees I got slime.  Also I had been slacking on the chlorine.

Adding Clorox seemed to brown / shrink the roots overnight!  I immediately switched to HTH shock, but the roots seemed to continue to wither.  I don't really know if it was lingering effects from the slime or the Clorox, but it sure seemed like the Clorox had a bad effect.

The HTH shock may be fine and work like the Clear Res, but right now I am just using water PH adjusted to 6.  I cut off the bottom of the cuttings with the decayed roots.  Things have bumped up again and new roots are emerging.  I will experiment later with some cuttings that are not so near and dear to my heart.

Also I would not warm the air outside the cloner too much.  I think having the cool air helps keep too much vegetative top growth and the warm (68 degrees) water gets the roots going.

Good luck!!  We are all watching with interest.

Dan
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Posted Reply with quote  #283 
Took these photos yesterday. Started these cuttings 1/7/16. Running a T24 cloner 24/7 @ 2 minutes on and 15 minutes off, something I read on an herb forum. I added Z7 per directions to tap water with ph adjusted near 6. The room temp runs 65-74°. Everything seem to be OK for now. There is a white substance on the bottom that looks like a mineral deposite. Water is still clear. Haven't noticed any skum or slime on inside of reservoir or on cuttings.

A couple figs need to be moved to soil soon.

Attached Images
jpeg _IMG_000000_000000.jpg (973.16 KB, 63 views)
jpeg 20160127_222852.jpg (913.17 KB, 61 views)


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Jerry
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Posted Reply with quote  #284 
Jerry looks good, is you water temp running about the same as your room temp? If I may ask what is Z7?
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Posted Reply with quote  #285 
Nice going Jerry. Enjoy the adventure. It's interesting how certain methods seem to trend year to year. This is definitely The Cloner year as were the Root Riot cubes a few years ago and Rich's Method and now Mai. It runs "hot", like a certain Fig does every year. It's an ever evolving hobby
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Posted Reply with quote  #286 
@Davel, I'm not measuring water temp. When I feel the side of the reservoir with my hand it never feels cold or hot, usually about body temp or a little less.

I also read about Z7 on the herb forum. Here is some info about it.

http://www.everwoodfarm.com/Z7_More_Info

http://www.everwoodfarm.com/Z7_User_Tips

@Coop, this is a fun thing for me. I want to give this cloner a try before I venture in to building one like you guys have done.
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Posted Reply with quote  #287 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry_M
I also read about Z7 on the herb forum. Here is some info about it.


   Their instructions say to never use chlorine or peroxide with Z7.   


   I'd be concerned that I'd end up with the healthiest Super Slime yet.
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Posted Reply with quote  #288 
Am I the only one reading all the names on Jerry's cuttings and imagining they were mine?
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Posted Reply with quote  #289 
Quote:
Originally Posted by danw
Am I the only one reading all the names on Jerry's cuttings and imagining they were mine?


  Dan, 
         As I read those labels, I thought:  "Ummm...  how many of my paychecks am I seeing here"  ???
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Posted Reply with quote  #290 
@danw and @Blue, please be patient as I don't believe in selling cuttings or plants to friends. :)

Oh, by the way those cuttings are a long, long way from being viable plants at least for me.
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Posted Reply with quote  #291 
Jerry, thanks for the info on Z7 and btw I have to agree with Blue and Dan that is quite an impressive collection your rooting.
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Posted Reply with quote  #292 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry_M
Oh, by the way those cuttings are a long, long way from being viable plants at least for me.


You will be amazed how fast they go from the stage you are at, to 4 or 5 inch roots ready to pot up.
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Wish List: Bordisot Negra Rimada, BB10 (dan_la), Peloponnisiaka Aspra Sika, Mavra Vasilika Sika, Sanguinato, San Donato, Smith
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APORTO

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Posted Reply with quote  #293 
This weekend, I went on a failed search for HTH.  It is difficult to score in the winter.  Clear-Rez is in shipment from Amazon and I will wait until it arrives.  If anyone is questioning the use of rapid rooter peat plugs, I threw a few in the empty holes with a single tomato seed in each plug.   Just under a week and all 3 seeds have sprouted and look healthy.  The peat is not breaking down and clogging sprayers.  I think this will be a great way to start seedlings.  Also, I am using this as more of a test and want to see how long I can keep the plants in the grower.  I believe the plants will flourish into their adult stages as long as they are supported from falling over.
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6B-7A - Woodbridge, CT
DaveL

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Posted Reply with quote  #294 
Andrew, I am also interested in starting my vege seeds this way. Keep us informed of your test. Thanks
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Dave
Waterford, Ct. Zone 6B
Frankallen

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Posted Reply with quote  #295 
My first try with my "Clone King 36"......This is 28 days! It looks like I may have 9 cuttings that rotted. The rest looks pretty good, about time to transfer to cups! : )

Cloner rooting.jpg 

 

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Frank from Bama-  Zone 7-b Alabama

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"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever".

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danw

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Posted Reply with quote  #296 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankallen
My first try with my "Clone King 36"......This is 28 days! It looks like I may have 9 cuttings that rotted. The rest looks pretty good, about time to transfer to cups! : )


Nice!  Don't give up on those 9 unless you know they are rotted.  Sometimes they just take a long time.
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Wish List: Bordisot Negra Rimada, BB10 (dan_la), Peloponnisiaka Aspra Sika, Mavra Vasilika Sika, Sanguinato, San Donato, Smith
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Frankallen

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Posted Reply with quote  #297 
They are rotten for sure!
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Frank from Bama-  Zone 7-b Alabama

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"Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever".

Mahatma Gandhi
Jerry_M

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Posted Reply with quote  #298 
Good job, Frank. Mine have advanced since my last photo. I am concerned the cuttings with long roots and top growth will out grow the holes in the top of the cloner making it difficult to remove without doing some damage either to the roots or the top growth.
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Jerry
Canyon Lake, TX 8b
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greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #299 
Nice going, Jerry!
What are you going to do with Zidi in TX?
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wish list: Violeta, Calderona. USDA z 10a, SoCal
waynea

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Posted Reply with quote  #300 
Don't Zidi have good brebas????
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