Does FMV affect all parts of a tree, roots, all branches?

Rayvino
1498396816

hoosierbanana

I ordered 1 oz. of Forbid4, a few questions (ok more than a few)

1. Can I spray it on now that plants are leafed out and some have figs?

2. Will one application do it or must it be repeated, how often?

3. I'm not sure if it's mites but it seems like a good preventative thing to do, have you seen any fig varieties that it might harm?

4. You said 1ml. Per gallon, any simple way to measure 1 ml. Is it like one drop?

Many thanks!

Quote

schang
1498397111

So after reading all these posts, here is the questions I have:

1) Does FMV/FMD matter if it only stunts the growth and productivity somewhat, and may eventually recover ? or not ?

2) Can anyone taste the difference of the fruits between the infected and not infected trees, knowing that FMV should add extra protein and its derivative in the fruit?

3) Most here put the trees in the containers, especially those fig collectors. I like to plant it in ground. Does this matter to the health of the plants? Of course for those who live in the north, container is a must, but there are cold hardy varieties available out there though.

Quote

Sas
1498402957

Quote:

Originally Posted by schang
So after reading all these posts, here is the questions I have:

1) Does FMV/FMD matter if it only stunts the growth and productivity somewhat, and may eventually recover ? or not ?

Yes it does. I have lots of trees and the healthy ones rate of growth is multiple times faster than an FMV infected tree. And if winter damaged or voles damaged, their recovery is also much faster.

2) Can anyone taste the difference of the fruits between the infected and not infected trees, knowing that FMV should add extra protein and its derivative in the fruit?

I did not notice any issues with taste. It's a rate of growth issue more than anything else.

3) Most here put the trees in the containers, especially those fig collectors. I like to plant it in ground. Does this matter to the health of the plants? Of course for those who live in the north, container is a must, but there are cold hardy varieties available out there though.

In ground, it's even more challenging. Among the things you'd be dealing with is the soil type and location of tree. So having a healthy tree right from the start should lead to a much faster establishment of tree.
I planted several trees at the community garden last year. All of them were winter damaged and all growth this season is from ground level, but the one that's most affected is the petit Negri that came from a Nursery and had signs of heavy FMV infection.

The first photo shows the five trees as of 22 days ago

The second one shows the FMV infected petit Negri. It's several weeks later now and most of the other trees are recovering nicely and have set fruit while this one remains at almost the same height with no fruit despite this tree being older than all the others. It did set fruit while in pot and today we're back to square one.

I will post about the progress of these trees as soon as I go over there later today.

In over five years I did not notice any spread of FMV from one tree to the next since most of my trees are potted, and not sure if it does how long it's takes.

Quote

schang
1498405301

Perhaps those died back are not meant for planting in ground which are too cold for them. If marginally cold hardy, they may need cover for winter protection ?

If FMV does matter as you described, why should we even bother planting them as the on-line sellers openly state that FMV is suspected and state that it does not affect the plant much?

Feeling helpless ? I only started planting fig trees a couple of years ago, two bought locally when I can visually inspect the trees by their well being visually (no idea of FMV then). Fortunately they are healthy in ground. The other two were bought on-line which were tissue cultured, and are also healthy, without any knowledge of FMV. Maybe I got lucky...

Quote

Sas
1498409806

In the past three or four years, I've planted too many non irrigated fig trees in ground at a wildlife property and found that they're not as safe in Zone 8B as much as I initially thought.
I probably lost more trees than I expected. The rate of loss is around 30%..
When young, every single one of them gets damaged in winter including varieties that are called Hardy, but most if not all do come back in spring. One thing became obvious to me, is that the ones that had no symptoms of FMV suffered less damage than the ones with symptoms in each and every case. In many cases the trees with FMV symptoms never came back.
I tried protecting them and still lost lots of wood, so now I don't. I just cover with mulch. They reach a certain height during the summer then at some point many die back. I'm still hoping that at some point they will take off.
The size of potted tree when transferred to inground, did not help much, as the initial tree almost always died and new growth always came back from the root system at ground level.
It's a question of how long you're willing to give your tree to actually see results and in my basic research, I found that some varieties did way better than others in ground and grew much faster so far. I believe it's all about adapting to local conditions and perhaps this takes time for the tree to achieve.
Now for pots it's a different ball game, you can grow almost anything for a while since you have more control over the environment.

Quote

schang
1498414969

This reminded me about an encounter with a local nursery owner, when I asked him what he carries for fig trees. He said: Celeste and Brown Turkey. I asked him why these two, and not other more "exotic" or "rare" types, He responded with a slight flare of contempt, that they grow well here. End of conversation.

Quote

hoosierbanana
1498420704 · Edited

Quote:

hoosierbanana

I ordered 1 oz. of Forbid4, a few questions (ok more than a few)

1. Can I spray it on now that plants are leafed out and some have figs?

2. Will one application do it or must it be repeated, how often?

3. I'm not sure if it's mites but it seems like a good preventative thing to do, have you seen any fig varieties that it might harm?

4. You said 1ml. Per gallon, any simple way to measure 1 ml. Is it like one drop?

Many thanks!

One application at 1 ml. did do the job for me, the first time I had them I did follow up on the worst affected and switched between Avid and Forbid, a week apart, but then last year I had some mites come in on new cuttings (decided to closely observe them rather than spray as precaution, couldn't find any mites with the scope or see any symptoms until the summer though) and one spray of Forbid knocked them all out, there were some unripe figs on the trees both times. I use a little syringe that I got with some cat medicine, it measures in .1 ml. increments. But 1ml. should be 20 drops, or .2 tsp, I just measured though and counted 21 drops the first time and 22 the second, must be something to do with the viscosity, or maybe there were a few air bubbles... There is a warning on the label to test spray a small number of plants first because Forbid can cause leaf damage in a few plant species, but I just sprayed them all and never saw any damage whatsoever. It will be a good thing to have around, just spray any new plants or cuttings and you should not have to worry

Quote

Rayvino
1498467015

hoosierbanana - Thanks for the information

Quote

ricky
1498482109 · Edited

I got this black madeira fig tree from mail order, it shocked me that it came with many big fat fig bud mites ( Confirmed with x50 loupe), I sprayed them with available perticide " malathion", it killed mites as well as young fig trees leaves.
I wish that I can get Forbid here, Our Customs here are very tough this day due to "Fentinyl crisis", I haven't get many mail orders for more than 3 months.

Since all my in ground trees are cold killed this winter, I find that new grow from base are more healthy.

I have few potted fig trees with badly FMV leaves(no mite) and tiny small leaves, I have been with them near 1 year without improvement, It is time to let them go, Should I junk them as garbage? or Should I plant them beside River for last chance?
What varieties are more FMV resistance? I just want few healthy fig trees in my yard.
I am thinking to get rid of all fig trees and Just buy couple cleaner, tissue culture fig trees next year.

Quote

Sas
1498531263

Just snapped some photos of all new growth this season at the community garden. All the original trees died to the ground in first winter.
The first photo shows what I believe to be an FMV infected petit Negri. It came from an online nursery this way. You can see the rate of growth of the other four vs this one. I'm tempted to replace it but it gave delicious figs before.
I'm still hoping that the new growth in ground end up shaking off the FMV symptoms at some point. In this case there's no hurry, but there's a definite advantage to having an FMV free tree.

Quote

FrankieC
1498698672

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoosierbanana

It was first observed less than 100 years ago, and was most likely much less common then than it is today. Like Ray and many, many, other people have said, virus symptoms are virtually non-existent on trees found growing on the east coast.

Many people have expressed frustration about the mite being established in CA and say there is no point in making any effort, while it has not stopped others (although not all of them have made public statements) from successfully protecting the health of their collections my monitoring and treating for fig bud mites. If you plant a seedling and be careful to not introduce the fig bud mite from materials you get from another collection, you will never see any FMV symptoms on them in WV, or any other region isolated from wild fig trees for that matter. Fig bud mites are host specific, they cannot reproduce on other species.

Could you provide a reference please, I've read several surveys and the highest infection rate was found in CA, but then again they only managed to find and test symptomatic trees. Before you say "all tree in CA have symptoms" please know that you would be contradicting observations made by several CA growers. Alma is immune, it is only logical that some other varieties are as well.

And the seedlings you mentioned? TC plants that have been virus indexed? undergone thermotherapy? The ones discovered to be free from virus in many surveys using pcr analysis around the world? Alma, Hamma? Even without expensive testing there is a clear difference between symptomatic and non-symptomatic trees, there is no in for a penny in for a pound here. The symptoms have been found to be directly correlated with amount of virus present in the plant cells, the particles need to be so numerous that they begin to actually gum up the works of the cells in order to cause any symptoms. The more virus, the more severe the symptoms. FMV has been shown to not be transmissible by sap, and can only migrate through the plant between adjacent cells, but the fig bud mite not only transmits virus from plant to plant it also rapidly increases the spread of virus in any one plant. Because virus replication and cell division are not tied together the amount of initial virus in a newly divided cell can increase or decrease. Rapid cell division relative to virus replication reduces the viral load, this is the reason thermotherapy works, the virus is denatured by heat and unable to replicate so each cell division cuts the number of viruses in half until none remain and virus free material is collected from the new growth.

I spent a whole season battling "rust" and "nutrient deficiency" only to discover the symptoms were from fig bud mites which spread persitent virus symptoms to about half of my collection (mostly trees that previously showed no symptoms, or at least got worse). It did give me the opportunity to do some things that people said was previously impossible, such as comparing symptomatic vs. non-symptomatic trees of a couple varieties.

The impacts can be much worse than cosmetic, growth can be stunted, fruit can have necrotic spots and drop.
My big question is...is FMV/FMD really a problem?

Absolutely, figs are not an economically important crop in the US so receive very little research. But in areas of the world where they are more important there are efforts to preserve healthy specimens.

Please remember that the advent of the internet and globalization has rapidly increased distribution of all types plant material and pests, we can look at the past but nobody knows what the future holds. Also consider that a disease which spreads from one tree to another does not take modern science to fight, people have been destroying sickly plants for thousands of years.

You are assuming nurseries that supply commercial orchards have the same attitude about FMV as you do. But they are more likely to undertake sanitary selections and or have mother trees tissue cultured to avoid the liability, the costs would be minimal compared to the risk of having large orders sent back. After all, best practices dictate that symptomatic plants should not be propagated from, if it were not possible then why would that standard be set for commercial growers?

DWD2- In the past you incorrectly diagnosed fig bud mite symptoms as virus symptoms. Hopefully you can see how it is impossible to interpret virus symptoms effectively without distinguishing between other similar symptoms.
https://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/instant-fmv-6004031

The version of Black Madeira that has highest demand currently is from KK, which has no obvious symptoms, I also grew a symptom free BM from a mother plant directly from Wolfskill. I've also propagated symptom free versions of a half dozen others from Wolfskill, though I have discarded most (including BM) for poor suitability to my climate.

Please see my comments above, as well as the threads where I describe my experience with fig bud mites, you will find them with a simple search. You are right to think that after a season or 2 all plants in a collection would most likely be infected, but there are also factors such as natural predators which will limit mite populations in some cases, so every infestation will vary. I discarded almost a whole year's worth of new plants, sure they were still alive but severely stunted and a pale comparison to their mothers, new plants from the healthy mothers quickly outgrew them. In the long run it was the right decision.

That year I planted a small orchard, which was infested at the time of planting and was in close proximity to symptomatic plants. Most of those plants showed symptoms but only a small number needed to be replaced, however, because the bases of the plants are still heavily infected; pruning back can cause symptoms to flair up and I I had to replace another tree this year from that group which froze back and only managed to produce sickly and stunted growths from the crown this spring. There was stark difference in growth and production between many symptomatic and non-symptomatic plants of the same variety, and no improvement in flavor. The symptoms really do vary from tree to tree, and it causes inconsistency from plant to plant. For a group like we have here, which often discusses and evaluates varieties, this extra variable is quite undesirable.

I am not professionally trained, although I do have a strong interest and respect for science. Who I am is someone who has been affected negatively by interacting with the fig community, as many other people and nurseries seem to be also. I did my best to provide supporting evidence, because I knew there would be resistance, but it is dismaying to see my experience ignored. Ray is right to worry that as a community we are acting recklessly, I've prevented multiple heirloom/family/otherwise symptom free trees owned by new members from being affected by material with fig bud mites, though it has brought me grief and pushed me out of the popular crowd. So regardless of whether you or others take me seriously I will continue to inform people, I know I would have appreciated someone diagnosing fig bud mite symptoms on my plants before so much damage was done, and although it puts those people in an awkward position to choose who to believe, most have been appreciative.

I've spent many hours reading research papers and observations from members of the community, as well as carefully watching my own trees. If you would like to discuss any of what I've written I'd be happy to, assuming you remain intellectually honest and open to additional evidence.