BLB
Registered:1214341548 Posts: 2,936
Posted 1342492883
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#51
Thanks Herman, You never cease to dazzle and amaze! Sorry to any out there that I sent either scion or airlayers to, please change the label to Aubique Petite. So now I need to get me a real Petite negra. Michael, sure be happy to trade, but it looks like you've got AP covered.
MichaelTucson
Registered:1333340598 Posts: 1,216
Posted 1342493588
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#52
Barry, I'm happy to stay "on" with our trade. I didn't make it to that nursery today (work kept me busy 'til after closing). So I'm not sure if they've still got them. I'm also not sure if they're the same as your tree either. But since you still want the kind of PN that I've got anyway, let's keep it "on". If I do manage to get one of those trees from the local nursery, I'll post pix. (Won't be tomorrow... I know my schedule tomorrow won't allow me to get there). Sure has been fun learning about these varieties. Thanks Herman and everyone who contributed. Mike central NY state, zone 5
__________________Pauca sed matura.
BLB
Registered:1214341548 Posts: 2,936
Posted 1342493879
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#53
It's a deal Michael, thanks.
Gina
Registered:1330452963 Posts: 2,260
Posted 1342493886
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#54
If anyone has any extra cuttings of the real PN, I'd love some too. I thought I had purchased a real PN, but... sniff ... no.
__________________ WillsC's new fig forum: http://www.Ourfigs.com (and blueberries)
BLB
Registered:1214341548 Posts: 2,936
Posted 1342498549
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#55
Gina, No need for tears. If you have what I have and it looks that way, it is a very good tree, compares well for taste with VDB.
Gina
Registered:1330452963 Posts: 2,260
Posted 1342500677
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#56
You are right Barry. It's not as if I don't already have a lot of nice fig trees, including my 'new' AP. :)Don't cry for me Petite Negra The truth is I never had you All through my wild days My fig existence I kept my promise Don't keep your distance Life is too good to mourn too long for the one that got away.
__________________ WillsC's new fig forum: http://www.Ourfigs.com (and blueberries)
BLB
Registered:1214341548 Posts: 2,936
Posted 1342501291
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#57
Nice Evita reference. If when I get scion from Michael or anyone else, and am able to get more than one tree out of it, I'll send one to you, promise.
Gina
Registered:1330452963 Posts: 2,260
Posted 1342502349
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#58
Thank you. I'm sure it will all work out. :)
__________________ WillsC's new fig forum: http://www.Ourfigs.com (and blueberries)
nelson20vt
Registered:1259864353 Posts: 1,847
Posted 1342525753
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#59
Gor my petite negri from el in 2010.
__________________ Mississauga, ON, Canada Z5B/6A
MichaelTucson
Registered:1333340598 Posts: 1,216
Posted 1342537582
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#60
Thanks Nelson. I see you also have some of the three-lobed leaves. They all look shiny too though, unlike mine. Nice pics. Mike central NY state, zone 5
__________________Pauca sed matura.
nelson20vt
Registered:1259864353 Posts: 1,847
Posted 1342538977
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#61
Hey Michal yes I have lots of 3 lobed leaves even last year I did also I did find a few photos from my PN last year.
__________________ Mississauga, ON, Canada Z5B/6A
BLB
Registered:1214341548 Posts: 2,936
Posted 1342539357
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#62
Nice pics Nelson, your tree looks great. It also looks different than mine which just shows that Herman was correct about my tree.
nelson20vt
Registered:1259864353 Posts: 1,847
Posted 1342540508
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#63
Thank You BLB, I did notice last year fruits were very different in shape to my VDB from EL wich made me happy I didnt want to end up with two Identical plants. If its a true Petite Negri or not I have no clue figs are very tasty though and thats what really matters. Vasile what is your thought on My plant?
__________________ Mississauga, ON, Canada Z5B/6A
dfoster25
Registered:1337044031 Posts: 723
MichaelTucson
Registered:1333340598 Posts: 1,216
Posted 1344912219
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#65
OK, a long time ago (a month or so) I said that I'd post pix of the two leaf patterns on my Petit Aubique (the Pierre Baud variety, sometimes apparently called Petit Negri). Well, I took the pix way back then, but just now uploaded them to my computer, so here they are. (And many of you will also notice another oft-discussed variety that the leaves also resemble). I still think it's cool the way each limb is consistent in its leaf shape, yet different limbs on the same tree look like they're different trees. (The guy at the nursery thought they were grafted, but couldn't find the bud union / graft point :-).
The first leaf type:
And another picture of the first leaf type:
And here's the second leaf type on my tree:
(the pix are about a month old... the figs on the tree are maturing nicely). So again, those pix are of my Petit Aubique (Pierre Baud) tree, not to be confused with my true Petit Negri (EL). That tree (the real Petit Negri) is hardly growing... nary a new leaf after 60 days since it was up-potted to a gallon with promix+extra perlite.
Mike central NY state, zone 5
p.s. I'm sure none of you would want to guess what the folks at the nursery had this Petit Aubique tree labeled as...
__________________Pauca sed matura.
shah8
Registered:1339623766 Posts: 657
Posted 1344918129
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#66
Well, now I wanna see a picture of that so-called real petite negri (EL), if I could get a snap from the future, of course... Honestly, I think Herman2 is wrong amidst the general confusion of bordeaux variants. I think people just went to France, picked up some tree roughly approximating some variety and went home. Only thing I will say about the picture is that the leaves are a smidge too cut for Petite Negri. A few of my PN's leaves are that cut, but most 5 & 7 lobed leaves are fat, and can look slightly like some of the NdC and Black Beauty leaves, distinguishable by the higher gloss of the PN (and single lobe tendency). Compare with the PN here:http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/Petit-Negri-Not-So-Petit-5472207?highlight=negri That one has leaves far more like NdC than mine, but mine isn't dissimilar in that it has relatively fat fingers. The leave you're showing is cut like RdB or Valle Negra. PN should also fruit before VdB/Negronne, et al.
__________________ Especially desired figs: UCD 187-25, UCD 200-48, UCD 157-17, UCD 309-B1, Princesa, Black Madeira, high quality sugar fig that ripens Sept-Oct. Probable desired fig: Smith, St Jean, JH Adriatic, CddB, Gulbun, Pastilliere, Sucrette Rooting: Smith, CDDB--this pretty much means I have my fun tries (tho' important since they are truly desirable), and only interested for this year: Gulbun, BM, 187-25, or something wildly exotic or precious that nobody has any good reason to send me.
snaglpus
Registered:1244258188 Posts: 4,072
Posted 1344957042
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#67
Mike, it was labeled as Brown Turkey. Wasn't it?
__________________ Dennis Charlotte, North Carolina/Zone 8a
nypd5229
Registered:1290455653 Posts: 1,903
Posted 1344957236
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#68
That's a Valle Negra leaf if I ever saw one. Matches mine to a 'T'!
__________________ Dominick
Zone 6a-MA
MichaelTucson
Registered:1333340598 Posts: 1,216
Posted 1345092279
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#69
Quote:
Originally Posted by snaglpus Mike, it was labeled as Brown Turkey. Wasn't it?
Yes Dennis, you guessed it. (Or, was it... maybe it was Clown Jerky or something like that? I can't remember :-) And it even came with a fancy label! Dominick -- that's interesting. It matches the one my dad has that he bought with a label of Petite Negra, and I was thinking it's a Petite Aubique. Whatever it is, it's been making lots of figs... I'm hoping the season lasts long enough here this year for them to ripen. The Peter's Honey that is right next to it has about 100 main crop figs on it now, and a couple of them are starting to swell... maybe this one will catch on to the idea :-) This one has maybe 25 or so main crop figs, and they've had a bit of violet on them since around the last week of July. If they ripen, I'll post pix so you can compare the actual fig with your Valle Negra too (rather than just the leaf). Mike central NY state, zone 5
__________________Pauca sed matura.
nypd5229
Registered:1290455653 Posts: 1,903
Posted 1345120983
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#70
I Just started it this year so I have no fruits for comparison. It supposedly comes from northern Italy in the Liguria region, not far from France I believe. Some have compared it to VdB, favorably. There is only 1 or 2 posts on this fig so there is not a lot of info. It has the thinnest leaves I have seen on any I have grown.
__________________ Dominick
Zone 6a-MA
stefpix
Registered:1340649999 Posts: 159
Posted 1345124259
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#71
Dominick, that is interesting. Liguria is a long and thin coastal region that goes from Tuscany to France (borders with Monte Carlo / Monaco). The climate, especially in the winter, is a lot milder than the bordering region of Piedmont or nearby Lombardy. It is basically mountains and sea. I wonder where did you get your cuttings from.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liguria Liguria is bordered by France to the west, Piedmont to the north, and Emilia-Romagna and Tuscany to the east. It lies on the Ligurian Sea . The narrow strip of land is bordered by the sea , the Alps and the Apennines mountains. Some mountains rise above 2000 m; the watershed line runs at an average altitude of about 1000 m.
The winding arched extension goes from Ventimiglia to La Spezia and is one of the smallest regions in Italy. Liguria is just 5,422 square kilometres, or 1.18% of all of Italy. Of this, 3524.08 kilometres are mountainous (65% of the total) and 891.95 square kilometres are hills (35% of the total). Liguria's Natural Reserves cover 12% of the entire region, or 60,000 hectares of land. They are made up of one National Reserve, six large parks, two smaller parks and three nature reserves.
The continental shelf is very narrow, and so steep it descends almost immediately to considerable marine depths along its 315-km coastline. Except for the Portovenere and Portofino promontories, it is generally not very jagged, and is often high. At the mouths of the biggest watercourses there are small beaches, but there are no deep bays and natural harbours except for those of Genoa and La Spezia .
The ring of hills lying immediately beyond the coast together with the sea account for a mild climate year-round. Average winter temperatures are 7 to 10 °C (45 to 50 °F) and summer temperatures of 23 to 24 °C (73 to 75 °F), which make for a pleasant stay even in the dead of winter. Rainfall can be abundant at times, as mountains very close to the coast create an orographic effect. Genoa and La Spezia can see up to 2,000 mm (79 in) of rain in a year; other areas instead show the normal Mediterranean rainfall of 500 to 800 mm (20 to 31 in) annually.
__________________ --
stefano
lukeott
Registered:1311470849 Posts: 645
Posted 1345687090
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#72
Michael, I have to tell you when I seen a picture of your tree I had to order to see for myself. Well they showed up last evening and they look nothing like yours. The one's they sent me look like Aubique Petite. I was a little upset so I called EL up. They tell me they only have one tree and the one I recieved was it. I can tell you they are surely different leaves then what your pics show and would like to see if your tree leaves change when it gets older. luke
ascpete
Registered:1336096379 Posts: 1,942
Posted 1349037245
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#73
Hello all, I have been reading this thread from the beginning because I had ordered both plants from EL. Attached are pictures of the the leaves of both plants, and they are different. The Petite Negri is only 18 inches tall but it has 3 and 5 lobed leaves. The Violet De Bordeaux (which was tagged Negronne) is 3 feet tall and has mostly 5 lobed leaves, very few 3 lobed. The question still applies. .
MichaelTucson
Registered:1333340598 Posts: 1,216
Posted 1349039024
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#74
Thanks for bumping this thread, Pete. It reminds me that I promised to post pix of the actual figs that I got off of my (Aubique Petite, or Valle Negra / Liguria, or whatever that tree actually is). I've eaten about 8 or 10 of the figs from that tree... just picked one this morning actually, and I've taken pictures of most of them. So maybe this evening (or sometime soon) I'll locate where the pix are and post them. (Unfortunately, though there are 15 or so more figs on the tree, that's probably the last of them that will ripen... the nights have been so cold here, and the leaves have gotten so yellowed and browned, I doubt the figs will ripen). Meanwhile though, a couple of comments about the original tree that motivated me to start the thread. My Petit Negri (EL) didn't grow very much at all this year... no new growth and no new leaves, from the time I got it in June through now (last day of September). It "looked" healthy right through the summer, just didn't grow. It was treated well and lived in among many other trees that were treated similarly (but the others put on LOTS of new growth). I'm just hoping it survives the winter. (And to those folks who wanted cuttings of my Petit Negra (EL), I'm still keeping track of your names and willing to do cuttings, but I'm afraid they'll have to wait until 2013, because this one just didn't grow. OK, about the leaves (and the implicitly related question of ID). Pete, your leaf pic on the left looks like the 5-lobed version of Petit Negri (EL)... that's gotta be from the same mother tree as mine. (Did yours grow much this year after you got it from EL?). And the Negronne leaf (aka VdB) on the left. I've been convinced from the start that Negronne is a different variety from Petit Negri, and also different from Aubique Petite (in my opinion anyway). So thank for posting the pictures, Pete! Luke... you said yours look different... can you post pictures? OK, last bit for this post... I promise to dig out the pix I took of my other tree that I posted pics of (the Aubique Petit, or Valle Negra, or Liguria, or whatever that tree actually is). Those pix are all still on the camera, and for me it takes a little more effort to get them uploaded and resized so that I can post them. (My pix are huge files... too big to post, so I have to do resizing and all that sort of junk). Again, thanks for bumping the thread Pete. And thanks for posting the pics. I think our Petit Negri (EL) trees are from the same mother tree. And Negronne is different. I don't know what Luke got from EL, but await his pictures. Mike central NY state, zone 5
__________________Pauca sed matura.
ascpete
Registered:1336096379 Posts: 1,942
Posted 1349043843
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#75
Mike, You're welcome. I ordered the Petite Negri (EL), May 27,2012 and received it 10 days later. It was a rooted cutting with two leaves 2 inches above the soil line in a 2 inch pot. I up potted in a 1 gallon and then a 3 gallon planter. Today it is approximately 18 inches tall, 2 branches from the soil line, and currently has 10 figs growing. I was planning on growing the plant indoors therefore I have not removed the figs as yet. After reading all the great info posted on this Forum, I followed their advice. Three things changed from my initial foray (about 1 dozen plants). 1. I bare rooted the fig plants that I received with the water bath method (tub of water and swishing), removing all potting material and de-tangling the roots, but not pruning. 2. Using gritty mix (5-1-1) potting mix, Dolemite Limestone and adding organic fertilizer Espoma Garden-tone (not time release). 3. Installing a homemade "Smart Pot Pot liner" made from Spun landscape weed fabric (containers larger than 2 gallon). The smart pot is a trademarked fabric pot liner commercially available. My biggest problem has been the fig Rust that came with these plants. The lower (older leaver) are covered, giving the appearance of severe FMV discolored leaves. I have used Copper and Sulfur sprays but am barely keeping ahead of the rust in the last month. Hopefully winter will destroy any That I miss (all fallen fig leaves will be burned or discarded in the garbage). My night time temperatures are already dipping into the 40's If you look closely at the leaf pictures that I posted you may notice the Rust. The Negronne leaf has some FMV discoloration but most is rust. The Negronne came as a multi-branched tree in a 3 quart container. It has grown about 12 inches on each of 7 branches, and is 3 1/2 feet tall. I have eaten 2 figs from this plant and have just pinched 3 dozen figs. I am planning on letting this plant go dormant because I want to destroy the leaves (Rust).
MichaelTucson
Registered:1333340598 Posts: 1,216
Posted 1349069864
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#76
I wish it were only down into the 40's here too... but we've been into the 30's a few nights last week. Rust is no longer the issue for my leaves... they're all dropping now from the cold. Seems way too early for 30's! What happened to autumn? (Time to reflect and listen to that George Harrison song I guess).
__________________Pauca sed matura.
cis4elk
Registered:1347840383 Posts: 1,718
DesertDance
Registered:1247674606 Posts: 4,518
Posted 1349258533
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#78
Four years ago I purchased a Peter's Honey from Gurney's nursery which was later ID'd here on the forum as VdB. Then Herman ID'd my VdB as Aubique Petite, and other's dispute that, so confusion reigns. The toughest part is trading with other members. I do not want to claim my tree as one or the other, because it's just all craziness! When trading do we say something like: Violette De Bordeaux AKA Aubique Petite AKA ??? No intention to mislead anyone, and trading time is approaching, so how do we honestly label our cuttings? Suzi
Attached Images
Violette_Du_Bordeaux_leaves.jpg (74.34 KB, 347 views)
2012-05-12_VdB.jpg (133.87 KB, 346 views)
VdB.jpg (551.84 KB, 345 views)
__________________ Zone 9b, Southern California. "First year they sleep, Second year they creep, Third year they leap!" Wish List: I wish all of you happy fig collecting! My wishes have been fulfilled!
BLB
Registered:1214341548 Posts: 2,936
Posted 1349269849
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#79
I would give the history, I bought it as blank, it was identified as blank and so on
DesertDance
Registered:1247674606 Posts: 4,518
Posted 1349271025
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#80
Thanks Barry! I'll do just that! Suzi
__________________ Zone 9b, Southern California. "First year they sleep, Second year they creep, Third year they leap!" Wish List: I wish all of you happy fig collecting! My wishes have been fulfilled!
ascpete
Registered:1336096379 Posts: 1,942
Posted 1373811268
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#81
Current pictures of Petite Negri EL and VDB/Negronne EL. The VDB is an actual sucker that grew from below the soil line last year. It has shown no visible FMD symtoms (mosaic or malformed leaves) last year or this year (so far), it was separated in early spring from the mother tree. The Petite Negri, and mother VDB leaves are symtomatic of FMD. .
newnandawg
Registered:1344130335 Posts: 2,535
Posted 1373812149
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#82
Very nice Pete.
7deuce
Registered:1275528558 Posts: 566
rcantor
Registered:1309799312 Posts: 5,724
Posted 1373827161
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#84
Great thread. Here's my question. If you have a VdB do any of these Petit N?gr?/Abique Petite plants have any significant adavntages as in better taste or productivity or different ripening season? Thanks.
__________________ Zone 6, MO Wish list: Galicia Negra, De La Reina - Pons, Genovese Nero - Rafed's, Sbayi, Souadi, Acciano, Any Rimada, Sodus Sicilian, any Bass, Pons or Axier fig, any great tasting fig.
ascpete
Registered:1336096379 Posts: 1,942
Posted 1373827821
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#85
Bob C, IMO, No! At least where it applies to my Petite Negri. The VDB is already over 4 feet tall and loaded with figs (over 4 dozen), with about a dozen already at the stagnant stage. The PN is 2 feet tall and has 9 embryonic figs.
Attached Images
VDBel_6-30-13.jpg (206.70 KB, 24 views)
cis4elk
Registered:1347840383 Posts: 1,718
Posted 1373833148
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#86
That's great, I have a VdB I started this winter which I am hoping will bear heavier than my PN. No need for 2 trees that are nearly the same. I still have a couple years to make up my mind on that one though.
__________________ Calvin Littleton,CO z5/6 Wants List: For everyone to clean-up after themselves and co-exist peacefully. Let's think more about the future of our planet and less about ourselves. :)
shah8
Registered:1339623766 Posts: 657
Posted 1373839718
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#87
Petite Negri should have larger fruit. It also needs more heat than VdB.
__________________ Especially desired figs: UCD 187-25, UCD 200-48, UCD 157-17, UCD 309-B1, Princesa, Black Madeira, high quality sugar fig that ripens Sept-Oct. Probable desired fig: Smith, St Jean, JH Adriatic, CddB, Gulbun, Pastilliere, Sucrette Rooting: Smith, CDDB--this pretty much means I have my fun tries (tho' important since they are truly desirable), and only interested for this year: Gulbun, BM, 187-25, or something wildly exotic or precious that nobody has any good reason to send me.
cis4elk
Registered:1347840383 Posts: 1,718
Posted 1373868148
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#88
Daniel, are those from potted or in-ground trees?
__________________ Calvin Littleton,CO z5/6 Wants List: For everyone to clean-up after themselves and co-exist peacefully. Let's think more about the future of our planet and less about ourselves. :)
ascpete
Registered:1336096379 Posts: 1,942
Posted 1375573553
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#89
I purchased an LSU Purple from Edible Landscaping earlier this year, the pictured plant is what I received dormant in a 4 inch pot. I believe its an Petite Aubique or Petite Negri, time will tell. The leaves are similar to Jason V's "Petite Negra" in post #83, with mostly 3 lobed leaves and only a few 5 lobed and singles. I have LSU Purple from 2 other nurseries and tasted a few last year, and the leaves look nothing alike. This plant produced figs as soon as it started to leaf out and grow, I have already pinched 6 figlets and have left 2 to develop, but there are another 6 already starting to swell. Hopefully it can be identified.Inline image
Attached Images
Leaf_UnknownEL_8-3-13.jpg (156.72 KB, 267 views)
Leaf_UnknownEL1_8-3-13.jpg (150.50 KB, 13 views)
figqueen13
Registered:1371093856 Posts: 81
Posted 1375580624
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#90
I drove to EL three weeks go and purchased 2 Petite Negri as well as few others. They gave me very large plants for a 4" pot. They have all three different leaves on them- 1 lobe, 3 and 5 lobes. It looks very similar to Jason's and Pete's.But I don't know how this plant can be dwarf, since the leaves are so large. In my opinion, larger than VDB.
__________________ Elizabeth, Richmond, Virginia zone7a .
shah8
Registered:1339623766 Posts: 657
Posted 1375587774
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#91
Again, it's not a dwarf fig. Total misnomer.
__________________ Especially desired figs: UCD 187-25, UCD 200-48, UCD 157-17, UCD 309-B1, Princesa, Black Madeira, high quality sugar fig that ripens Sept-Oct. Probable desired fig: Smith, St Jean, JH Adriatic, CddB, Gulbun, Pastilliere, Sucrette Rooting: Smith, CDDB--this pretty much means I have my fun tries (tho' important since they are truly desirable), and only interested for this year: Gulbun, BM, 187-25, or something wildly exotic or precious that nobody has any good reason to send me.
SEGeo
Registered:1343244935 Posts: 517
Posted 1375593291
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#92
After spending the last several hours reading over this thread I can say my head hurts. In conclusion I am now more perplexed on these varieties than before reading what everyone has mentioned. I think we all can agree that EL has us all mixed up and all these figs taste good.
__________________ Chris Fairchild
Virginia Beach, Va.
USDA Hardiness Zone 8a
Graduate Student - Engineering and GeoScience
***I assume all my figs carry FMV***
Wish List:
javajunkie
Registered:1362970391 Posts: 1,523
Posted 1378931277
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#93
I'm with you Chris. I've read and reread and damned if I know what ANY of the 5 I have are. (supposed to be Petite Negri) I'm sure I have Petite Aubique and Petite Negri but I sure can't tell you which is which!
__________________ Tami SE Texas
javajunkie
Registered:1362970391 Posts: 1,523
cobb4861
Registered:1375370895 Posts: 537
Posted 1379035964
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#95
Tami, those leaves look like mine. So now I want to know whether this is the read deal or a mistaken identity. Either way its a good fig.
__________________ Meghan Cobb ~ Growing zone 9 Wish List: Pane e Vino White and /or Dark, De la Reina, Iranian mountain fig and anything else that is great to grow or at least try in the hot and humid Southeast Texas.
javajunkie
Registered:1362970391 Posts: 1,523
Posted 1379036266
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#96
I absolutely want both Megan but I would sure like to know which is which.
__________________ Tami SE Texas
cobb4861
Registered:1375370895 Posts: 537
Posted 1379041543
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#97
Tami, I'll send you pictures of mine tomorrow and see if you think they are the same.
__________________ Meghan Cobb ~ Growing zone 9 Wish List: Pane e Vino White and /or Dark, De la Reina, Iranian mountain fig and anything else that is great to grow or at least try in the hot and humid Southeast Texas.
cobb4861
Registered:1375370895 Posts: 537
Posted 1379084841
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#98
Tami, I'm pretty sure that mine Petite Negra is the same as yours. So the question still remains, is this a PN?
Attached Images
Figs_-_Petite_Negra_leaves.jpg (562.43 KB, 22 views)
Figs_-_Petite_Negra.jpg (575.07 KB, 26 views)
__________________ Meghan Cobb ~ Growing zone 9 Wish List: Pane e Vino White and /or Dark, De la Reina, Iranian mountain fig and anything else that is great to grow or at least try in the hot and humid Southeast Texas.
javajunkie
Registered:1362970391 Posts: 1,523
Posted 1379085350
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#99
Will someone please chime in on posts #96 and #100?
__________________ Tami SE Texas
MichaelTucson
Registered:1333340598 Posts: 1,216
Posted 1379109886
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#100
Quote:
Originally Posted by javajunkie Okay, I finally got some pictures, can someone please tell me which I have?
Tami, To me your pictures look the same as my tree of Petit Negri... the one that Vasile (Herman2) called the real deal (the true Petit Negri). Especially in the last two pictures (though some of the other pics too). The only thing I can't tell from your pictures is how much your leaves have any gloss to them. Can you comment the actual texture of the leaves? I'm asking because identifying based on the leaf alone is difficult... leaf morphology is affected by so many variables. But I think you've got real Petit Negri there (in post 96). Mike
__________________Pauca sed matura.