Earliest In-Ground Fig Fruit, No Protection, Zone 6b

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hllyhll

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Posts: 162

Posted 1409676806	Reply with quote #1

I call it Mount Etna Unknown, ripened fruit on September 1st and 2nd, 2014: This fig, above, picked in the hot afternoon tasted of strawberry jam. The fig picked yesterday evening (no picture), maybe a little less "ripe" but to me even more flavorful, tasted of grape-strawberry, or to be more exact: grapey-grape-wild-strawberry. This cultivar has tasted the same in-ground as in pot these past couple weeks. This is a one year old bush placed in-ground last year as a rooted cutting. Last fall, I cut it to the ground and heaped a couple inches of mulch over it. No artificial protection, simply cut back and mulch. I would be interested to see reports of other unprotected in-ground fig bushes in zone 6b or colder that are ripening fruit this year after this harsh winter. This is a great robust fig - vigorous, productive, early, very tasty, hardy, and apparently disease free. I am very happy to have stumbled upon it. It was sold to me as cuttings labeled Brooklyn White in fall of 2012. __________________ Tony WV 6b

Ampersand

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Posts: 728

Posted 1409677449	Reply with quote #2

Sounds like a winner Tony, thanks for sharing. Let us know if you ever figure out what it truly is.

hllyhll

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Posts: 162

Posted 1409679164	Reply with quote #3

Probably have to leave it to science to figure out with precise certainty. Kelby, how have your in-ground figs done this year? Did you attempt protection at all? __________________ Tony WV 6b

pino

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Posts: 2,118

Posted 1409679944	Reply with quote #4

This promises to be an interesting thread. This will be a decision year for me as far as which in-ground figs to go with. Even if not ripe yet are you interested in a status of how far along in-ground figs are in the colder zones? __________________ Pino, zone 6, Niagara, JCJ Acres Wish; Peace on earth and more figs Italian 258, Galicia Negra, Luv, trade suggestions welcome.

hllyhll

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Posts: 162

Posted 1409680712	Reply with quote #5

Pino, Yes, sure. Some of my promising as yet unripe in-ground cultivars include especially a number of other Mount Etna strains (Gino's Black and Takoma Violet in particular), plus Improved Celeste, Celeste PP, Binello / Gallo?, and possibly Banana / Gallo?, also LSU Gold, and possibly Aldo and others. Next year, I'll be hopeful about especially what Ronde de Bordeaux, Florea, Nero 600m, and others can show, after their first winter unprotected in-ground. __________________ Tony WV 6b

Ampersand

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Posts: 728

Posted 1409681008	Reply with quote #6

Tony, last winter I only had a BT in the ground as a 1 year old plant put in ground late summer. I only threw a pile of leaves on top, it died to about 1". Grown back nicely, but not fruiting yet. I have 6 more in ground now that hopefully I can share some info on next year.

musillid

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Posts: 1,507

Posted 1409681337	Reply with quote #7

In ground and survived in 6b this past winter. Congratulations! __________________ Dale non compost mentis in Zone 6a

figherder

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Posts: 237

Posted 1409681646	Reply with quote #8

Looks and sounds great. Would probably do ok in 6a too. Might ripen a couple weeks later is all. __________________ Jeff in zone 5b Wish list St rita,Vista,Sal's G,De la Reina, preto, Sport and pops purple red from Bellaclare, Planera Malta Black, Navid Unk Dark Greek,

hllyhll

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Posts: 162

Posted 1409682114	Reply with quote #9

In addition to my zone 6b trials, I'm trialing about a dozen cultivars unprotected and very young in zone 5b (northern Pennsylvania) this coming winter. Not as many types as I would like, might be more in subsequent years. Will see what comes of it next year, if anything. In fact, I planted a few cultivars at 550 meters (1800 feet) in zone 5b. I don't think that Valle Calda [550m] or Nero 600m, though planted that high, were planted in that cold of a growing zone. __________________ Tony WV 6b

Rewton

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Posts: 1,946

Posted 1409682826	Reply with quote #10

"Last fall, I cut it to the ground and heaped a couple inches of mulch over it. No artificial protection, simply cut back and mulch." Tony, I'm having trouble understanding your rationale for cutting the tree/bush down to the ground in the Fall. Given the winter we had, it probably would have died back to the ground anyway but if we would have had a normal winter you would have lost quite a bit of live wood, correct? I have also put a bunch of figs in the ground this Spring and am mulling over what the winter will be like and how best to protect them. They have grown like gangbusters - some are 6 feet high and wide. I will definitely do some serious pruning on them to make it easier to protect them but haven't decided how severe a pruning job to do. __________________ Steve MD zone 7a

hllyhll

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Posts: 162

Posted 1409688781	Reply with quote #11

Steve, I did not cut everything to the ground, but everything that I did not cut to the ground died to the ground anyway. The winter was especially harsh. In a less harsh winter would anything above ground have survived? I don't know. It's possible, I suppose. However since these were all very young trees, I figured that it was unlikely. I did protect one tree a couple years old, cutting it about two feet from the ground and covering it with a plastic tub: bad result, rodents girdled it at ground level. I don't want the various hassles of covering, or the uncertainties of it. I'm identifying cultivars and strategies to avoid that. And I did have a distinct further rationale for cutting most of the cultivars to the ground: doing so allowed me to spread an uninterrupted layer of mulch and/or wood chips and/or uncut fall leaves, which flatten down quickly in fall rains and seem to form a kind of tarp, or superior insulation. If anything, I am worried about having the figs be too well naturally insulated and thereby attracting nesting and root-eating, bark-eating rodents. I want the figs to be quite cold in the winter, even relatively exposed, to naturally ward off rodents, while being able to survive to bear fruit come summer. I was conscious about that going into last winter, and nothing has served to change my opinion so far. Rather the opposite. __________________ Tony WV 6b

bigbadbill

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Posts: 376

Posted 1409699048	Reply with quote #12

I couldn't agree more, Tony. I do the same thing. On a first year tree, even in a mild winter, it will die back anyway ( or at least partially-not leaving but a few inches because it doesn't have its "winter coat on". There isn't much protection ( thickness) on one year old bark. It has been my experience that in the years I've grown trees in the ground, ( 12 yrs), first year trees die back. Mulching is a smart move and a lot easier to do than wrap frail whips at that age IMO. To prevent the rodents from tunneling and chewing, I throw moth balls near the bases, and that seems to work well. After a few years, the branches are thicker, and better equipped to handle the temps and NW wind. __________________ SE Pa, zone 6b https://www.facebook.com/offthebeatenpathnurseries

pino

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Posts: 2,118

Posted 1409699419	Reply with quote #13

Tony I like what you are doing trying to find the right varieties and ways to minimally assist them through the winter. I have a similar goal. The problem is that if I don't give them adequate protection then I find that I will not have a lot of figs that year and this exposes my real goal of having lots of my own figs to eat. Searching for the elusive fig that can grow unprotected in my winters (-20C is typical) is like looking for a horse that flys.,LOL I like the work members like ascpete, Herman2 and others are doing in training and protecting figs for the winter and watch eagerly for their posts. __________________ Pino, zone 6, Niagara, JCJ Acres Wish; Peace on earth and more figs Italian 258, Galicia Negra, Luv, trade suggestions welcome.

hllyhll

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Posts: 162

Posted 1409702249	Reply with quote #14

Bill, yes I think I may likely have to employ rodent deterrents eventually. I think I can come up with a few organic deterrents rather than moth balls. We'll see. Pino, I share your concerns about productivity. For now, my best productivity comes from drilling many extra holes in pots and sinking them into mulched ground then pulling/cutting out the pots each year. And also growing in regular pots above ground. However, concurrently I'm working toward creating highly productive in-ground fig bushes in zone 6 and even in zone 5, ideally. My plans may change, but currently I am trying to identify the most robust varieties for such conditions, the ones with the best "spring-back" qualities after ground die-back. Eventually, hopefully sooner rather than later, I hope to attempt underground cordoning. In other words and pictures, I hope to attempt something like the following, at link, but a few inches underground rather than a few feet above ground: http://growinggreener.blogspot.com/2006/08/method-for-growing-figs-in-japan-with.html I don't know if it will work but think it is worth a try. Some people are architecturally inclined and like to try to devise covering and shelter for above-ground wood. Not me so much but people are different which is good. __________________ Tony WV 6b

jdsfrance

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Posts: 2,591

Posted 1409733622	Reply with quote #15

Hi bigbadbill, What do you call a one year tree ? Is it a first year growing for a cutting ? If so, sorry, but not all of mine do die-back protected in my Zone7. You should try my post about winter protection and give it a try . If you attract rodents, it is mainly because of a bad choice of media. If you use compost from a nursery - it is draining and still only dirt, so you are likely not to attract rodents . At least for the last two winters that I use this method, I haven't have had a problem . As for winter protections, let me write this again for all our newbies : Better safe than sorry ! The method I use is just so easy and winter-proof ! My former method was with plastic sheets all around the trees stapled on a wooden frame ... Man, with wind and snow accumulating over the roof - that was a real pain as It would break open just at the worst moment - when cold winds were blowing. Now, wind can blow, it won't move my eighty liters trashcans filled with dirt from the nurseries ! Some members often speak about dessication of the stems during the cold winter ... On stems protected by compost from the nurseries (dark dirt - no remaining wood quality) that just doesn't happen. Because the stems are exchanging water with the compost ... Taking and giving at will . Good luck to all with your fig trees for the coming winter ! Hey, wait, let me harvest this year's main crop first :) - if I can do. __________________ ------------------------ Climate from -25°C to + 35°C Only cold hardy figtrees can make it here

Ampersand

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Posts: 728

Posted 1409744366	Reply with quote #16

Instead of chemical deterrents for rodents, has anyone used physical barriers? I'm planning on wrapping trunks as best I can with nursery tree wrap, the white spiral stuff. I was playing with an idea of using 6 or 8 inch PVC pipe with a cap to help insulate and keep out critters...currently cost prohibitive for me though. A hungry enough rodent will find a way, unfortunately. Hopefully the local stray cats will help this winter.

tylerj

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Posts: 646

Posted 1409745786	Reply with quote #17

With regards to wrapping up an inground tree... are there any issues with the tree not being able to "breathe" or does that not matter since they are dormant?? Do people get mold issues doing this?? If the insulation material is dry and the containment is kept water proof.... do the trees overwinter fine without rotting?? My thought would be as long as they are dormant and kept dry they would be good? Tyler __________________ London, Ontario zone 6a Wish List: Martinenca Rimada, Genovese Nero AF, Galicia Negra, Brooklyn White

can_smokva

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Posts: 89

Posted 1409748748	Reply with quote #18

Tyler, I haven't done it myself yet, but as it may become a possible necessity when I plant one in ground. To be prepared for this wrapping, I consulted two local old-timers who have done it over past 15 years. They strive to make it waterproof to keep insulating value unreduced (last winter there was no dieback), but they do always provide a "chimney" or top vent. Damir

bigbadbill

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Posts: 376

Posted 1409750536	Reply with quote #19

Jdsfrance, I am in a slightly colder area than you, so believe me, first year cuttings die back, protected or not. I've grown them for 12 years, trying different methods. My feeling is why not sacrifice the tip growth and use those as insurance cuttings in the winter (what else do I have to do?)? The mulching, no matter what media, attracts rodents in my area. I use what Bass uses to deter them. My 5 year old in ground Sals produced 80 pounds of fruit last summer in zone 6b with no artificial protection. This system is just fine for me. __________________ SE Pa, zone 6b https://www.facebook.com/offthebeatenpathnurseries

tylerj

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Posts: 646

Posted 1409750759	Reply with quote #20

Thanks Damir thats what I was wondering. __________________ London, Ontario zone 6a Wish List: Martinenca Rimada, Genovese Nero AF, Galicia Negra, Brooklyn White

hllyhll

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Posts: 162

Posted 1409757410	Reply with quote #21

"My 5 year old in ground Sals produced 80 pounds of fruit last summer in zone 6b with no artificial protection. This system is just fine for me." That's impressive. If you had produced 8 pounds, an order of magnitude less, it would have still been impressive. Did your Sal's bush die back entirely to the ground the previous winter or two before producing all that fruit? I imagine if it had totally died back it would have required a very large underground network of buds to then produce so greatly. Total ground dieback is not ideal obviously but for people in the north it may be the most practical way to go. It seems possible that it could be very highly productive as well. People in the north may need to think of growing figs the way they think of growing bulb type plants that die back to the underground bulb and roots every winter then produce a lot of exotic looking beautiful flowers every summer. The main differences being that the seemingly exotic looking flowers produced would instead be the ripe fig fruits, and the bulbs would instead be either untrained clumps of buds or long trained rows/ropes/cordons of buds producing the yearly groundbreaking and fruit bearing stems. __________________ Tony WV 6b

eboone

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Posts: 1,101

Posted 1409759490	Reply with quote #22

Quote: Originally Posted by bigbadbill My 5 year old in ground Sals produced 80 pounds of fruit last summer in zone 6b with no artificial protection. This system is just fine for me. No artificial protection means what? No mulch, no covering? Or was it cut back to ground level also? How did that one do with the bad winter last year, and is it producing at the same level now? __________________ Ed Zone 6A - Southwest PA --------------------------- Short wish list: CDDG, LSU Red, Dark Greek (Navid), Col Littman's Black Cross. And any cold hardy early fig.

bigbadbill

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Posts: 376

Posted 1409759734	Reply with quote #23

Hi Tony, The 2-3 years prior, the Sals suffered no die back at all. It was a monster last year because of it-I hadn't anything close to that production in the past. This year it did die back...not to the ground level, though. I mulched it well, and that is where the new growth emerged. It is an ugly mess due to this sprawling and brawling, but if you have the room for it, it can be productive. I just realize that I can't expect to get consistent yields because of the occasional harsh winter. __________________ SE Pa, zone 6b https://www.facebook.com/offthebeatenpathnurseries

hllyhll

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Posts: 162

Posted 1409761895	Reply with quote #24

Bill, I figured that was the most likely scenario. And that reinforces my view that well-planned underground cordoning - or perhaps even mere undermulch cordoning - could potentially provide consistent high yields in cold areas without the need for any protection, beyond some mulch. And the mulch is not even an extra additive, since I use it in any case for its water retention and nutrient providing qualities that are so useful during summer. __________________ Tony WV 6b

eboone

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Posts: 1,101

Posted 1409763625	Reply with quote #25

Quote: Originally Posted by hllyhll well-planned underground cordoning Tony, Would be interested to hear how you plan that. I understand espalier techniques, plan to trial some figs in ground next year in a 'step-over' orchard layout, just wondered how to get them underground as you suggest. Do a 5 ft long single cordon bent horizontal to a support while still in a pot, then plant the fig and lay the whole thing in a trench ? Or did you have another idea? __________________ Ed Zone 6A - Southwest PA --------------------------- Short wish list: CDDG, LSU Red, Dark Greek (Navid), Col Littman's Black Cross. And any cold hardy early fig.

hllyhll

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Posts: 162

Posted 1409767655	Reply with quote #26

Ed, I haven't sat down and formalized any plans along these lines. However, I have done a fair amount of informal underground cordoning this summer, with a number of different cultivars including Ronde de Bordeaux, Gino's Black, Takoma Violet, Aldo (Palermo Red), and Salem Dark among others. By this I mean that I have bent down and buried ground level limbs anywhere from 1-4 inches below ground, extending the limb out in a straight line away from the tree trunk. These limbs grow out of the trunk at or just above or below ground level. Preferably somewhat below. Over a period of days or weeks depending on how flexible these limbs are, I bend them into a shallow trench that I dig in the ground. My trenches so far are anywhere from 1 foot to 1 meter long, depending on how long the limb is. I leave a few buds/leaves near the tip of the limb and the limb itself curling up a few inches above ground. On most of these cordons, the tip starts to grow straight up as a vertical trunk removed typically a few feet from the main trunk. My hope is that next summer quite a few new "trunks" will grow vertically between the main trunk and the tip trunk of the underground cordon. (Assuming the cordon survives the winter freeze. That may be a big assumption.) I assume that the cordon is rooting and therefore will be well rooted going into next spring, with plenty of live buds (protected by being just underground) for growing many new "trunks". Next summer, I hope to pinch the tips of numerous new trunks, on each and every of these individual cordoned "trees," to produce plentiful fruit. Some of this cordoning - live limb burial - I do on flat ground. Some of the cordoning is made easier by going up a slope. I don't know how it will all work, or if it will work at all. Theoretically is seems that it should work, but I've only now begun to attempt it. Here is a Takoma Violet and an underground cordon stretching off to the right. The TV is in-ground, wintered over from last year. The pot that you see I cut and placed on about a month ago in an attempt to clone the trunk. I left the tip of the cordon curling up to poke out of the ground about a month ago. That tip has since grown a few inches, turning into a kind of trunk at a remove perhaps. Similarly below - this is one Salem Dark tree put in ground this summer. I trained a ground level limb underground, and it now appears to be growing as a trunk at a remove there to the right. Below, is a Hardy Chicago that I began to cordon underground then called it off and brought it back above ground. I both didn't have enough space there and the limb was too high above ground where it grows out of the trunk, I thought. So now it's merely a low growing near horizontal limb a bit above ground. I'm thinking of digging this tree up and putting it in a pot. Below, more examples of young trees with a limb cordoned underground this summer and the tip growing up at a distance. Hopefully next summer numerous fruiting trunks will shoot up between the tip and the main trunk all along the underground cordon. Again, the sliced pots that you see are clone attempts, as these are young in-ground trees. This is what I have been trying. I'm sure there are many different ways to try getting cordons underground. Maybe too there are more accurate words and phrases for this sort of technique than "underground cordon". I expect these to be underground rooting cordons, not rootless like above ground cordons. __________________ Tony WV 6b

Ampersand

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Posts: 728

Posted 1409768054	Reply with quote #27

You'll have to keep us posted on this Tony, interesting idea. Are you concerned about the cordons rooting and there being too many shoots? Or will you just thin the shoots as needed? I can't imagine they will only grow from those tips for very long, it'll start sprawling and crawling in no time at all since they look like happy, healthy plants. ps: I see you have an enemy in Creeping Charlie as well. That stuff won't stay out of my beds, but it looks nice when it blooms in spring.

hllyhll

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Posts: 162

Posted 1409768401	Reply with quote #28

Yes, I added a note that I expect the cordons to root since they are underground. And thinning might well be necessary. Sometimes I battle with what you call Creeping Charlie a bit but it does serve as a kind of living mulch too and should compost in place nicely over the winter providing some nutrients for next year's fig trees I expect. __________________ Tony WV 6b

figherder

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Posts: 237

Posted 1409770752	Reply with quote #29

Looking forward to seeing how this progresses next year. I was going to do the above ground technique but if this works like you are planning then I will do this instead. Having more roots along the entire length of the "Cordon" can only be a good thing. __________________ Jeff in zone 5b Wish list St rita,Vista,Sal's G,De la Reina, preto, Sport and pops purple red from Bellaclare, Planera Malta Black, Navid Unk Dark Greek,

eboone

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Posts: 1,101

Posted 1409773774	Reply with quote #30

Tony, thanks for the excellent description of what you are doing. I think the only drawback to what you are doing is that these roots start out pretty shallow. If a whole cordon or stem was planted down a foot or more lower, it would likely be better protected. Either way, eventually you will have a somewhat 'linear' mass of roots, with new stems emerging from within each time the winter is bad enough to kill the existing trunks. OR just prune back to ground level every winter. This will probably only be worth doing with relatively early fruiting varieties here in the North. I might try doing one row of a step-over espalier and compare with a row of trees with the trunks planted deeper horizontally, if I can get enough growth on them to get several feet underground at one time. __________________ Ed Zone 6A - Southwest PA --------------------------- Short wish list: CDDG, LSU Red, Dark Greek (Navid), Col Littman's Black Cross. And any cold hardy early fig.

bigbadbill

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Posts: 376

Posted 1409775702	Reply with quote #31

Thank you, Tony. I appreciate the description and pics of this plan/concept. Please keep us posted on the findings this coming spring/summer with updates. Very interesting idea! __________________ SE Pa, zone 6b https://www.facebook.com/offthebeatenpathnurseries

hllyhll

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Posts: 162

Posted 1409780435	Reply with quote #32

I appreciate all the interest. I look forward to continuing to monitor, expand, and vary these experiments. In regard to this: "I think the only drawback to what you are doing is that these roots start out pretty shallow. If a whole cordon or stem was planted down a foot or more lower, it would likely be better protected." In my zone 5 underground cordoning attempts this summer, I did go deeper than a few inches, as much as a foot deep or more. The reason that I did not go deeper here in zone 6 is that I noticed during this very harsh past winter that very little if any wood damage seemed to occur even slightly underground. Essentially all the wood damage seemed to be to air exposed wood or to wood under a very thin amount of mulch. Of course, it's possible that shallow underground cordons will be different, be more susceptible to cold damage than any main trunk, and so in future years I might have to cordon deeper (if this technique is workable at all). However, another reason that I did not go deeper this year with the cordons is that I noticed when I took extra precautions last winter and mulched young tree trunks very deep and/or planted very deep, then it took a few of those young trees several weeks longer than the other trees to bud out in the spring and early summer. I feel I planted or mulched them too deep, which should be no problem going forward given that they have grown more fully closer to the surface and I will not mulch them as heavily this winter. But it did set them back unnecessarily this past year, I think. Again, cordons may turn out to be different. I may have to take that extra step of deeper burial with them, if they can be made to work at all. We'll see. __________________ Tony WV 6b

GregMartin

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Posts: 550

Posted 1409782364	Reply with quote #33

Thank you Tony. I was wondering how this would work out, so I'm thrilled to see that you're working with this method. Some people think you'll get way too much root mass with this method and that will drive too much vegetative shoot growth, but we'll see. If that's the case then perhaps dense plantings can address that. Can't wait to see what next the next years bring for you. __________________ zone 5 Maine Seeking: Saint Martin, Naples White, Black Tuscan, Bécane, French Alps, Abruzzi, Tenica, Wild Mountain Figs from the coldest corners (Iranian, Turkish or other...would love seeds too)

GregMartin

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Posts: 550

Posted 1409782395	Reply with quote #34

Subscribed! __________________ zone 5 Maine Seeking: Saint Martin, Naples White, Black Tuscan, Bécane, French Alps, Abruzzi, Tenica, Wild Mountain Figs from the coldest corners (Iranian, Turkish or other...would love seeds too)

hllyhll

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Posts: 162

Posted 1409785795	Reply with quote #35

Greg, I have seen seemingly much too much vegetative growth with correspondingly limited fruit production on many ground-dieback fig clumps but on very well cultivated, mulched, and irrigated ground that is not my own. My red clay may be fairly nutrient rich and well draining but it does not allow for easy breathing of the roots. So I may experience that problem of excessive vegetation as the years go on but so far I've not seen more vegetative growth than I want. And once I better figure out and get the best short season cultivars in ground in quantity and perhaps figure out some limited fertilizer techniques and the like to favor fruit over vegetation, then I hope to see especially good success. Granted, any big success of the underground cordons may result in a whole different story, as might the better growing power of older and older in-ground trees. If they begin to take off next year or in future years vegetatively but not fruitfully, well I'll have to figure out that issue as it may arise. There is so much endless clay here, and the winters are harsh enough, that I'm hard pressed to see the cultivars taking off into crazy vegetation in a way that could not be modulated and transformed into good fruit production by modest application of appropriate fertilizer and pinching/pruning techniques. At least, that's what I would try - to shift any great growing power away from vegetation and into fruit production. In ways that keep things simple, very simple, ideally. But, again, we'll see. Should be interesting, at the least. Also, I can't imagine that others haven't experimented with this sort of thing before, underground cordoning. I would like to hear about any specific details, if so. __________________ Tony WV 6b

jdsfrance

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Posts: 2,591

Posted 1409822793	Reply with quote #36

Hi hllyhll, If you replace mulch with dirt (dark compost from the nurseries with no remaining wood ), and check my post on winter protections ... you'll see some resemblance ... The difference being that I'm trying to save 50 cm of stem above dirt instead of just the buried stems . The dark compost and dark trashcan for me should act as a heat sink and thus help keeping some more heat around the trees . Another difference is that come spring, I remove the compost to allow the stem to breath and make its life . I don't want the stems to use energy for rooting . As for your test, I have some remarks : Using hay and straw as you do, I would attract rodents here and they surely would kill my trees. That same medium would probably rot and keep too much water around the buried stems and thus get the stems to rot . Your water table must be deep sunken - here if I bury a stem it would probably stay too wet - here, at my location . Good luck with your experimentation ! Keep us posted ! Did your groundlayers root by now ? __________________ ------------------------ Climate from -25°C to + 35°C Only cold hardy figtrees can make it here

hllyhll

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Posts: 162

Posted 1409839354	Reply with quote #37

Most of the ground-layers seem to have long since rooted. As for rodents, plenty of those here all around before I put any fig trees in the ground. So far: co-existence, it seems. I do have cats. I occasionally flood the fig root area. And I trample around in incidental ways keeping things somewhat disturbed, while trying not to damage roots. Also quite a number of companion plants and bushes perhaps help distract rodents. Will see if that combo is enough to keep rodents mostly at bay. The "hay and straw" is actually lawn clippings from a neighbor in an arrangement that probably won't last as they are moving. Your above ground method is in a way my below ground method: earthen burial. I have far too many trees to use above ground burial effectively, and far too few trash cans, and anyway want to proceed more naturally, but great if it works for you and is your preferred method. Yes, the water table here is nowhere to be found, basically, as I am on a steep mountainside. So, moist but not remotely too wet for stems here. Last year, as an experiment, I put a few unrooted cuttings direct into the ground. I don't think the ground warmed enough as deep as I put them. Or maybe too much clay bothered root formation. Anyway, most of the cuttings did not root, however nor did they rot over the winter and rooted instead this the following summer, surprising me when they leafed above ground, and then grew well, especially after I dug them up out of the choking clay and put them in pots with good growing medium. I wonder if anyone has wrapped parafilm grafting tape around a few trunks or limbs in an attempt to preserve them through winter cold. Works great retaining moisture and so on in cuttings when rooting (Tim Clymer's method). I guess it would not work for wintertime preservation of wood, as the key in that far more than wind and water protection, given hardened wood, seems to be the simple need for heat, fundamentally, not falling below a certain temperature threshhold. (And regardless much wrapping can be time-consuming and costly.) Ground functions triply as heat source, heat sink, and heat insulator. Hard not to wish though that there would be some type of quick and simple, natural protection for a lot of above ground wood. __________________ Tony WV 6b

1king

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Posts: 60

Posted 1409844439	Reply with quote #38

Thanks for sharing your plans +pics Tony. I have been plotting to do something very similar on a steep gravelly loam soil in zone 6a. I'm convinced there is a way to do this without great expense and large above ground work. I plan to do several trials this winter by planting 2-3 year old trees 6-12" deep, surround with rodent protection a) small rocks b) wire wrapped around trunk to 1' above ground and backfilling with loose, breathable material such as pine needles, cones and then a few inches of the gravelly soil so that the trunks base is about 2' below surface. I'll pull it all back in spring/unwrap the wire mesh to let the soil warm and provide very low poly covered hoops for an early spring start. The poly will be taken off in in May/June after embryos form and netting will go on as needed for hail, insects and birds. I see one of the huge benefits of this kind of growing in northern areas as being able to provide the low poly hoops 2-5' wide/tall at low cost to increase yields/growing season. I look forward to sharing more as plans become reality... __________________ ivan - coastal bc

hllyhll

Registered:1358637509
Posts: 162

Posted 1409853063	Reply with quote #39

Ivan, sounds interesting. Can always learn something from various protection and micro climate type experiments. My personal preference is to avoid wrapping and unwrapping, covering and uncovering. In this way, I try to make ripening figs as simple as possible, and as material free as possible. And my strategy to offset late arriving main crop in-ground figs is to cultivate early potted breba crops. And in this manner ripen fruit June through October. Or beyond? So I'm always on the lookout for the earliest potted breba producing cultivars and the earliest and most robust or hardy main crop cultivars. __________________ Tony WV 6b

timclymer

Registered:1300323432
Posts: 305

Posted 1409969612	Reply with quote #40

Tony, Interesting thread. We've gotten a few ripe main crop figs off of what I think is LSU Improved Celeste (was sold as LSU O'Rourke from Petals from the Past) about 2 weeks ago, which I considered really early. Some Florea were ripening around the same time on a tree at my Grandma's place. Both of these died back to ground level. Just today we had our first ripe fig off of Marseilles Black VS. So Florea and Improved Celeste do seem REALLY early (as Herman's observations have shown). Regarding your thought on wrapping the tree with something like parafilm, it might be worth an experiment. There are also spray-on antitranspirants which might do something similar, though I might be a little cautious about spraying it on a fruit tree and I'm not sure how long they last. __________________ http://threefoldfarm.org - Fig trees and farm updates https://www.facebook.com/ThreefoldFarm South Central PA (6b,7a) Want List: Ital 258, any figs found growing in PA, NJ, or NY

ascpete

Registered:1336096379
Posts: 1,942

Posted 1409973921	Reply with quote #41

Tony, Thanks for starting this topic and sharing your techniques. The attached diagram has been modified to include the winterization plan that I'll be using this year with my in ground bushes and step over espaliers. The scaffold branches (cordons) will be spaced approximately 2" off the ground and will be covered with Pine Shavings. This past winter all branches that were below the pine shavings survived the cold. The scaffold branches of the fig bushes will be cut back to just below the top of the mounds. Both bushes and Espaliers will be planted at ~ 3' below ground surface level. . Tim C, I will be testing a white wash made from 50% latex paint on a few fig trees this season. It breathes, but could be also used as a bark "antitranspirant".

hllyhll

Registered:1358637509
Posts: 162

Posted 1409974542	Reply with quote #42

Tim, I have the same LSU Improved Celeste sold as O'Rourke from Petals from the Past. It looks like it may well be the third in-ground cultivar to ripen here (died back to ground). In future years I would not be surprised if it becomes the first to ripen, though who knows. It was among the very last to bud out here this year and yet among the first to put on fruit. This year's main crop ripening order thus far in GROUND: Mount Etna Unknown September 1 1 yr old Celeste PP September 3 2 yrs old This year's main crop ripening order thus far in POT: Mount Etna Unknown August 20 1 yr old Hunt August 23 several yrs old Marseilles Black August 31 1 yr old Improved Celeste PP September 2 2 yrs old __________________ Tony WV 6b

rcantor

Registered:1309799312
Posts: 5,727

Posted 1409974985	Reply with quote #43

If you're planting your cordons underground you might want to run some hot water pipes on either side several inches away. If you heated up the soil in April they'd bud out in early May and you'd have a month's head start. Of course you wouldn't want water in there over the winter. __________________ Zone 6, MO Wish list: Galicia Negra, De La Reina - Pons, Genovese Nero - Rafed's, Sbayi, Souadi, Acciano, Any Rimada, Sodus Sicilian, any Bass, Pons or Axier fig, any great tasting fig.

hllyhll

Registered:1358637509
Posts: 162

Posted 1409975364	Reply with quote #44

Looks good, Pete. The diagram makes it very clear. What cultivars are you going to attach to the scaffolds? Have you tried any of these low scaffolds in previous years? Or were your surviving branches covered in pine shavings this past winter simply low running branches that you perhaps pinned down and did not scaffold? Very interesting that through this past harsh winter none of your branches died beneath pine shavings. How deep beneath the surface of the pine shavings did the branches sit? __________________ Tony WV 6b

cis4elk

Registered:1347840383
Posts: 1,718

Posted 1409985495	Reply with quote #45

Tony, Here is a link to a thread Pete started. He has been has been evolving this process. Japanese/Stepover Espalier Orchard the Adventure begins I have a tree I will be putting in ground next year. I keep waffling as to whether I want to train it in the style that Pete is working with, a very low espalier which the arms get burried in the winter. Or bush form, and trimming it down to about 2.5-3 ft each fall and burying the trimmed tree in a wire cage filled with dry shredded leaves and tarped and topped with plywood. I like the look of the bush :) but the very low espalier would likely be easier and more effectively insulated in the long run. The polar vortex has put many minds into overdrive on how to grow figs in cooler climates more effectively. This may have never happened otherwise. __________________ Calvin Littleton,CO z5/6 Wants List: For everyone to clean-up after themselves and co-exist peacefully. Let's think more about the future of our planet and less about ourselves. :)

ascpete

Registered:1336096379
Posts: 1,942

Posted 1410008504	Reply with quote #46

Tony, The plan is a work in progress, this is only my 3rd season growing figs and the 2nd season exploring the benefits of the Japanese Pruning Technique. Most of the cultivars, some are found unknown NYC cultivars will be planted in ground and trialed as bush and espalier with the same scaffold type training, http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=6388743 . The Japanese Pruning Technique works when used in Tree, Bush or Espalier form, the key is to establish the scaffold branches and the fruiting nodes. The protection of the scaffold branches will almost guarantee a harvest. WillsC posted update pictures of his VDB espalier, http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1283967119&postcount=17 and although he's in Florida, the growth habit of the fruiting nodes has been similar in my zone. I haven't tried winterizing the low ground hugging scaffold (cordon) as yet, it is a plan for this growing season. The 12" high cordons from last season all died this past winter due to exposure, many were 2" caliper. Yes, all the wood that was covered below the "mulch" survived and sprouted new shoots. The dieback and observations occurred in Zone 7 (NYC) and Zone 6/5B where these trees were planted. The dieback stopped at or just below the mulch line. Calvin, The trees that are being trained as Bush form will have their scaffold branches trained to about 2' high with the Pine Shavings mounded about 3' high. The 3' to 4' diameter mound will be enclosed by metal fencing to hold the formed shape and height. .

hllyhll

Registered:1358637509
Posts: 162

Posted 1410019007	Reply with quote #47

Thanks for the links. Calvin, I think the biggest beneficiaries of cold weather fig growth improvements could be those in zone 5 and colder, though those in zones 6 and 7 and so on would benefit greatly too. Whether to bush or to cordon, why not try both together, with a low cordon shooting out to one side of a bush? Either could be dispatched later, or both maintained, I would think. Pete, If I were to try ground hugging cordons (2-3 inches above soil surface), which I may need to especially if the underground rooting cordon idea doesn't work, then I would think of preparing ground hugging cordons for winter as a form of burial as opposed to covering. What this means in practice, I don't know. Using dirt instead of wood chips? Or running the cordons in swales that don't retain water, either because they are well draining or do not run on contour? then covering with dirt or mulch in late fall and sweeping it out in early spring? My underground cordons I would expect sooner rather than later to become essentially elongated bushes, with all the problems and possibilities that that might entail. __________________ Tony WV 6b

ascpete

Registered:1336096379
Posts: 1,942

Posted 1410046740	Reply with quote #48

Tony, In answer to your questions, Yes, but wood shavings are much easier and quicker to move than soil or sand.

Charley

Registered:1401162922
Posts: 63

Posted 1410108847	Reply with quote #49

I am going to try the step-over-espalier form for growing some plants in Kentucky. A few comments about the burried cordons. It would seem to a method for protecting more roots of the same plant. However it not particularly different from planting rooted cuttings closely and expecting to have all plants rejuvinate from roots after being frozen back to ground. The practical results will be the same as thinning the resulting bush, multistemmed growth, that follows dying back to ground. I'm just a beginner at figs, but it seems to me that the key to getting early shoot development and growth is either warmer ground or warmer stems/branches, or possibly both. The deeper the soil cover the later the roots warmup. While that soil cover provides temperature stability to survive the winter, it is going to be slow to warm and trigger growth. My plan it to try to use two foot tall styrofoam sheets to create an above ground box, open to the soil. Fill the box with dry leaves which will further insulate the cordons. The heat resevoir of the soil should keep it from having the hard freeze and the box shields from winds, without being some large teepee arrangement. Last winter the lows were about -6 F but the soil temperature at 4" depth did not get below 32 F. I expect the section I'm going to cover and protect from surface air exposure to stay above that temperature. The leaves can be pretty easily placed or removed with a leaf vac blower. I hope to have some living above ground growth in the cordons to help trigger plant growth in the spring and be able to get pretty fast soil warmup when the insulation is removed. I have such limited space with adequate sunlight that I plan on only letting each plant and cordon be about three feet horizontal as a way to have more varieties. That should also lead to smaller extent of root growth on the surface plane. In any case it will probably require quite a lot of pruning and pinching to limit plant growth to only three or four verticals and no additional shoots from the ground. __________________ Zone 6a - Kentucky

pino

Registered:1383190021
Posts: 2,118

Posted 1410114718	Reply with quote #50

My understanding is you need a nice wall or fence to benefit fully from the espalier form? With no wall or fence is there any reason why I can't use the espalier form and have 4/5 cordons spread out evenly in all directions? The cordons would be trained as explained by Pete. Still close to the ground so easy to apply winter protection. __________________ Pino, zone 6, Niagara, JCJ Acres Wish; Peace on earth and more figs Italian 258, Galicia Negra, Luv, trade suggestions welcome.

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