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Fig breeding

Yeah, so the P allele is egg lethal...the FEMALE CULTIVAR HAS THE P ALLELE AND THOSE EGGS DIE!!! SO??? WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH CHEMICALLY INDUCING 'FEMINIZED' gaP/ga+ pollen WHICH IS NOT LETHAL...OH AND VIABLE???

The P allele is in the female fig, but those eggs die and it is never passed...SO? What does that have to do with GA3 induction of male flower structures in the pistillate hermie or pure pistillate hermie prized fig landrace cultivar for viable gaP/ga+ feminized pollen for S1 hybrid prooduction? THE P ALLELE IS EGG LETHAL AND NOT SPERM LETHAL...EVEN 'FEMINIZED SPERM' WITH THE P ALLELE...HOW ABOUT THAT?...:)

Also, someone might have already figured this one out....

When you cross gaP/ga+ x gaP/ga+ you get 25% gaP/gaP, 50% gaP/ga+ and 25 ga+/ga+....So, 25% would have just P allele and they would die as they would all be egg lethal.....So, you are left with 2/3 persistant female S1 hybrids and 1/3 non-persistant....still, looking at the numbers....2/3 persistance is pretty good.

So when a gaP/ga+ persistant fig female cultivar is selfed, 25% of the seed die and the in the rest of the seed 2/3 are persistant and 1/3 xx......That is WAY BETTER THAN 1 in 1000 or the space and numbers when using male caprifig! Again, no wonder the Japanese are doing this!

In an S1 cross, the 2/3 persistant will be a blending of the two choice female landrace cultivars you selected for the cross....You kinda know what you are getting!

So if these seeds are selfed landrace....2/3 should be persistant and be almost clones of the mother and 1/3 not persistant....BIG DEAL!!!!

 

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Details about   RARE French Fig tree 'Madeleine des deux saisons' indoor or outdoor! seeds.

 

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1/3 of my plants will be trash...no biggie...:) I think it is way cool that fig are actually all hermie and S1 crosses and inbreds can be made....Yeah, this is way cool...:)

What is also quite interesting is that by germinating these 'assured viable' fig seeds I will know if this is pistillate hermaphrodite or apomixis! If what is going on is pistillate hermaphrodite, I expect only 2/3 of the seed to be persistant. If it is apomixis, 100% should be persistant.....According to the Punnett Square genetics on persistance I read about.....If it is apomixis, 100% clonal looking plants....Pistillate hermie instead I get 2/3 persistant and 1/3 garbage....correct my genetics if you see a problem....I already corrected myself once with the Persistance alleles being P and +...Sorry about that, but I do not think I made any more mistakes....I cannot wait to germinate those fig seeds and see what I get....2/3 persistant or 100%??? I bet it is 2/3...:)

Still those odds on a selfing are pretty good....2/3 of the plants are near clones of the mother! Same will be true for S1 hybrids using feminized pollen...:)

Also, looking at the Cross Between Persistent Female Tree (P+) and Persistent Caprifig (P+): only 50% of the offspring are persistant! When you make an S1 cross, 2/3 of the offspring will be persistant! You get a greater degree of persistance in S1 hybrid and inbred line production and you get the blending of the two selected female parents...so you can kinda predict what you are getting in the resulting persistant offspring in the S1....

Hard to predict what you are going to get with male plants....Same goes in Cannabis...that's why they are doing all the feminized seed production for the stoners....

congatom, I love your passion and enthusiasm. If P is egg lethal, wouldn't apomixis give you 100% Caducous (non persistent) plants?

Apomixis gets around sexual gametes and uses regular 2N cells for the offspring and are a diploid clone of the mother...There is no 'true egg', but again, I am no expert on apomixis...I'll tell you that right now...But my guess is since apomixis does not involve an egg cell, the lethal thing may not come into play at all. I cannot comment further than this. However, when I get those seed from Canada....If I get 2/3 persistant fig offspring then I am most-likely correct that ALL FIG are hermies and the genetic system is gaP/ga+ over the hermie bell curve. If I get 50% persistant females, then I suspect this guy in Canada used a persistant caprifig and if its apomixis....100% persistant(???) Again, I have to look at apomixis more carefully, but I don't think it involves an egg, so no egg lethal and all persistant as it is a REAL CLONE of the mother??? So, for  me, next step is germinate those fig seeds and see the ratio of persistance. Is it 2 out of 3, 50/50, 100% or 0% (C. caprifig?? Those are like 1 in 1000 right ??)....So, IF this guy in Canda has VIABLE selfed fig seed from landrace....I suspect I will get 2/3 persistant....Anything else...especially 50/50 tells me he used a persistant caprifig and 100% out of my 24 seeds would be most-likely apomixis and think is HIGHLY UNLIKELY! Then I could get all garbage...HE USED A C. caprifig....Or he is selling non-fertile seeds...but he says they are fertile and I believe him...I bet I will get 2/3 persistant female fig that are close to clones of the mother!  1/3 no fruits...garbage.....

He assures they are fertile selfed seeds and I get money back if he is wrong...he's not wrong....He has a pistillate hermie landrace fig and is harvesting seeds and selling them....:)

Congatom,
Thank you very much for this info. Nice to see this forum being used like this again.
best,
mgg

Ok, I am done for today I think....That is enough for all you to think about....Again, I present things they way I do....It's like PULLING A BANDAID! If you don't like it...sorry....When I see errors in science....especially plant science and plant breeding...I will chime in and give you all an education if need be! I am just trying to help you people out as you have ALL THE INFORMATION, but you are not connecting the dots correctly and I'm an expert on hemphrodite plant complex breeding systems and I had chime in....get out the fig breeding 'dark ages' please....and don't take offense...I'm just trying to give you information that you obviously have no clue exists so that you can accelerate you breeding success and not have to worry about "We don't have Davis or LSU any more!" SO WHAT!!! Look at the stoner Cannabis breeders and what they have done using GA3! No excuses people....Giddy up....It is going to be a while before you fig breeders catch up to the stoners...:) Friendly ribbing people...:) I got to go...cheers all...:)

Here is some 'Old School' info on Cannabis and hermies it relates well to fig too!

From R.C. Clarke's Marijuana Botany.....

Sex - Attempts to breed offspring of only one sexual type have led to more misunderstanding than any other facet of Cannabis genetics. The discoveries of McPhee (1925) and Schaffner (1928) showed that pure sexual type and hermaphrodite conditions are inherited and that the percentage of sexual types could be altered by crossing with certain hermaphrodites. Since then it has generally been assumed by researchers and breeders that a cross between ANY unselected hermaphrodite plant and a pistillate seed-parent should result in a population of all pistillate offspring. This is not the case. In most cases, the offspring of hermaphrodite parents tend toward hermaphrodism, which is largely unfavorable for the production of Cannabis other than fiber hemp. This is not to say that there is no tendency for hermaphrodite crosses to alter sex ratios in the offspring. The accidental release of some pollen from predominantly pistillate hermaphrodites, along with the complete eradication of nearly every staminate and staminate hermaphrodite plant may have led to a shift in sexual ratio in domestic populations of sinsemilla drug Cannabis. It is commonly observed that these strains tend toward 60% to 80% pistillate plants and a few pistillate hermaphrodites are not uncommon in these populations.
However, a cross can be made which will produce nearly all pistillate or staminate individuals. If the proper pistillate hermaphrodite plant is selected as the pollen-parent and a pure pistillate plant is selected as the seed-parent it is possible to produce an F1, and subsequent generations, of nearly all pistillate offspring. The proper pistillate hermaphrodite pollen-parent is one which has grown as a pure pistillate plant and at the end of the season, or under artificial environmental stress, begins to develop a very few staminate flowers. If pollen from these few staminate flowers forming on a pistillate plant is applied to a pure pistillate seed parent, the resulting F1 generation should be almost all pistillate with only a few pistillate hermaphrodites. This will also be the case if the selected pistillate hermaphrodite pollen source is selfed and bears its own seeds. Remember that a selfed hermaphrodite gives rise to more hermaphrodites, but a selfed pistillate plant that has given rise to a limited number of staminate flowers in response to environmental stresses should give rise to nearly all pistillate offspring. The F1 offspring may have a slight tendency to produce a few staminate flowers under further environmental stress and these are used to produce F2 seed. A monoecious strain produces 95+% plants with many pistillate and staminate flowers, but a dioecious strain produces 95+% pure pistillate or staminate plants. A plant from a dioecious strain with a few inter-sexual flowers is a pistillate or staminate hermaphrodite. Therefore, the difference between monoecism and hermaphrodism is one of degree, determined by genetics and environment.

Crosses may also be performed to produce nearly all staminate offspring. This is accomplished by crossing a pure staminate plant with a staminate plant that has produced a few pistillate flowers due to environmental stress, or selfing the latter plant. It is readily apparent that in the wild this is not a likely possibility. Very few staminate plants live long enough to produce pistillate flowers, and when this does happen the number of seeds produced is limited to the few pistillate flowers that occur. In the case of a pistillate hermaphrodite, it may produce only a few staminate flowers, but each of these may produce thousands of pollen grains, any one of which may fertilize one of the plentiful pistillate flowers, producing a seed. This is
another reason that natural Cannabis populations tend toward predominantly pistillate and pistillate hermaphrodite plants. Artificial hermaphrodites can be produced by hormone sprays, mutilation, and altered light cycles. These should prove most useful for fixing traits and sexual type.

Drug strains are selected for strong dioecious tendencies. Some breeders select strains with a sex ratio more nearly approaching one than a strain with a high pistillate sex ratio. They believe this reduces the chances of pistillate plants turning hermaphrodite later in the season.

Only problem, Robert Clarke whiffed on the last sentence of the first paragraph and he MEANT TO SAY "Therefore, the difference between 'DIOECIOUS' and hermaphrodism is one of degree determined by genetics and environment.... He is talking about dioecious and hermies and then therefore for the monoecious and that is not correct.....But I know what he meant to say as I AM SAYING IT! Again, ROBERT IS TALKING ABOUT THE HERMIE BELL CURVE!!! When it is ONE OF DEGREE, GENETIC AND ENVIRONMENT....THAT BE QUANTITATIVE!

However, Roberts Clarks assessment on Cannabis is applicable to fig as fig really all hermies and Robert is even suggesting this when he mentions the 'one of degree' thing......So from there the Cannabis breeders got a hold of the 1972 paper on using GA3 to produce 'feminized' pollen and since males are the BANE of Cannabis growers....Here we are 15 years later with stoners breeding for 'feminized seed' and the Cannabis breeding industry has just taken off....All the while, Japan, looks like they understand what is really going on in fig and that the pure pistillates are either pistillate hermies or pure pistillate hermies and with their knowledge of GA3 (as they discovered it)...most-likely working on a 'hunch' like what I am suggesting to all of you....it looks like the Japanese have worked out feminized pollen production using GA3 in breba fig. To think, this might actually work in fig and we can get S1 hybrids....2/3 persistant too and ALL FEMALE!!! MY GOSH!!!

One more error on my part, but not a biggie....You get 50% persistent when crossing the persistent caprifig onto a edible female fig, BUT, I LEFT THIS OUT....1/2 of those will be male as you are using a male as one of the parents.....look at heterocaprifig below.....YOU BETTER HOPE YOU HAVE A HETERO TOO!!!! So IF you have a hetero caprifig and you cross onto a female edible fig, YOU GET A LOT FEWER PERSISTENT FEMALES AS YOU HAVE MALES TO DEAL WITH ALONG WITH PERSISTENCE. WHEN YOU USE 'FEMINIZED' POLLEN, YOU GET ALL FEMALE AND YOU JUST NEED TO DEAL WITH PERSISTENCE AND 25% gaP/gaP eggs never make it...THAT IS WAY BETTER THAN USING A CAPRIFIG AND YOU BETTER HOPE WHEN YOU USE A CAPRIFIG IT IS HETERO! NO WONDER THE JAPANESE ARE USING GA3 and going the synthetic hybrid route using 'feminized' pollen.....using caprifig males and the NUMBERS SUCK!!!
homo caprifig                     heterocaprifig

All GA/ga Male 1/2 GA/ga Male *
1/2 ga/ga Female *

 

* = Most likely genotypic combination: Homozygous female tree x heterozygous caprifig.

I did not show the parent allele column but with the female it ONLY recessive ga.....with the hetero male the bi-alleles are GA and ga....50% males EVEN BEFORE TAKING INTO ACCOUNT PERSISTENCE??? Oh man...:( It's funny because Hiro is probably saying, "Tom, why did you have to fill them in? Now were are going to have too many fig!" ....Sorry Hiro...:)

Hey Hiro, I had to tell them because it is a WAY COOL quantitative genetic breeding system with genes and a wasp and you can play with GA3....Play from a plant breeder point of view.....Man, I had to tell them...:)

Man, in about 5 years or so, there may be a lot of S1 fig hybrids around....Hopefully not all from Japan.....

I have not heard of this Japanese fig breeding program, do you have any links where I can read more about their program?

One more error in my Punnet squares.....Not bad though and the comparison favors S1's all the way. When you cross a female persistent fig, you have ga+ alleles in the egg only....all with P alleles die....So when you cross ga+ female gametes with 'feminized' gaP/ga+ pollen, you get 100% female and 50% persistent....That's still way better than using a male for pollen! Half of the offspring will be male BEFORE taking into account persistence and you really do not know how the male contributes to the female pheno just by looking! Again, no wonder the Japanese are using GA3......Sorry for the slight math errors, but it's been a while since I did three gene Punnets and I tend to catch myself when I do simple mistakes like this...:) But still....NO MALES AND 50% persistent......and you know what you are getting.....my gosh!

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