congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424911357
Reply with quote #1
Go to eBay or Amazon...get some GA3...determine the correct concentration reading this paper:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24477812
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424911546
Reply with quote #2
Word has it, this is being done in Japan...WHY NOT HERE? Average Joe's are creating 'FEMINIZED' Cannabis seeds using this technique and Japan is doing it with fig.....Why is it not being done here in the USA? IT'S SIMPLE and very cost and time effective...YOU GET ALL FEMALE SYNTHETIC HYBRIDS.......That's the way to go!
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424912533
Reply with quote #3
I'll look for the Japanese paper on injecting GA3 in fig Breba to induce feminized pollen production. Other members mentioned that the paper exists and should be able to get a hold of it. Translating it might be a problem as I don't read Japanese and the translators online are not the best for Asian languages. But that should not matter as the concentration of GA3 dissolved in alchol and put in water to collect in a syringe is minimal! You may have to make a liter or so and just use what you need. The Japanese appear to be experimenting with synthetic S1 fig hybrids using feminized pollen and we are not doing that here in the USA....WHY NOT? AND DON'T GET ANGRY WITH ME FOR ASKING! Again, WHEN DID THAT PAPER IN JAPAN COME OUT? PROBABLY A WHILE BACK, SO CANNABIS PEOPLE ARE SMARTER THAN FIG PEOPLE AND UNDERSTAND ABOUT PISTILLATE HERMAPHRODITES AND FEMINIZED XX POLLEN AND FIG BREEDERS (OUTSIDE JAPAN) ARE CLUELESS.....OK...:( AGAIN, WHY IS THIS NOT BEING DONE? MY PLATE IS FULL WITH ORCHIDS RIGHT NOW AND I ONLY HAVE YOUNG FIG TREES NO FRUITS YET....SO DON'T ASK ME FOR A COUPLE YEARS!!!! BUT ALL YOU THAT ARE INTERESTED....IT'S SIMPLE PEOPLE...JUST READ THAT PAPER ON MALE FLOWER INDUCTION IN CANNABIS AND MY GUESS IS THE CONCENTRATION THAT WILL WORK ON FIG IS THE SAME AS CANNABIS AND CANNABIS WAS IN THE MORACEA FAMILY BEFORE SPLITTERS PUT IT IN CANNABIS FAMILY AND OUT OF MORACEA! I believe fig to be Moracea....mullberry and all that jazz, I could be wrong, I would have to look it up. But interesting too how Cannabis and fig were once considered in the same plant family! Again, just more evidence we are dealing with hermaphrodite bell curve and pistillate hermaphrodite Breba figs, which again, THROWS A WHOLE NEW INTERESTING TWIST IN FIG BREEDING FOR SUPERIOR S1 HYBRIDS! THIS HAS TO GET DONE HERE IN THE USA....IT'S SIMPLE!!!!
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424912828
Reply with quote #4
Why use Caprifig when you can create synthetic F1 hydrids with know female superior cultivars? Japan obviously aked themselves that question and they decided that the best use of their breeding budget would be the creation of feminized XX pollen for use in the creation of synthetic F1 hybrids like what is being done by 'stupid Cannabis people'...:) Yeah, us Cannabis breeders are not as smart as you fig breeders, RIGHT?...:) JUST JOKING PEOPLE!!! YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO TAKE A JOKE WITH ME AND ANSWER THE TOUGH QUESTIONS!!!!
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424915554
Reply with quote #5
If a species has BOTH a strong hemaphrodite condition and what appear to be diecious all male and all female plants, in reality ALL OF THEM ARE HERMIES! Not sure if this is the case with all ID'd diecious plants. But as the diecious condition is part of the hermaphrodite bell curve, just an outlier, I would suspect most all diecious plants to have some form of hemaphrodite condition. In plants like fig, Cannabis and hop there are strong hermaphrodite conditions and therefore they are all hermies! Again, any PhD plant breeder want to challenge me on this, go for it!
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424915710
Reply with quote #6
Does asparagus, date palm and others have hermies? Probably, but I would have to look into it. But fig with that strong hermie condition and other documented evidence and the GA3 Breba feminized pollen in Japan tell me figs are all hermaphrodite on that bell curve, just like Cannabis and hop......
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424915825
Reply with quote #7
If Japan is experimenting with GA3 for production of Breba 'feminized xx pollen' for use in creating S1 hybrids, FIG BREEDERS NEED TO BE DOING THE SAME SIMPLE THING....JUST LIKE THE STUPID CANNABIS BREEDERS...:)
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424915856
Reply with quote #8
Fig Breeders HERE in the USA need to be doing this.....
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424915974
Reply with quote #9
That was funny how I make a few posts and someone posts a note on GA3 and Japan, which is further evidence that fig is hermaphrodite on that bell curve!
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424916135
Reply with quote #10
Temporal and even structural sterility do not equal 'MULE'! That is a genetic barrier due to odd chromosome #....Fig are all hermies and S1 hybrids can be made using GA3 on Breba figs for feminized xx pollen...WOW! SCREW THE CAPRIFIG!!! YOU DON'T NEED IT AND THIS TECHNIQUE IS EASY!!!
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424916177
Reply with quote #11
Way better use of time, money and space....No wonder Japan is looking into it!
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424916720
Reply with quote #12
If you have what appears to be 'diecious' and all female flower, if you can spray it with GA3 and get viable pollen, AH UH, it is NOT DIECIOUS, IT IS PISTILLATE HERMAPHRODITE! A chemical stress inducing male flowers in a 'Phenotypic all female flower plant'....no, the all-female plant is actually a hermie and you get male flowers and viable pollen via a stressor. Again, diecious is just that FAR OUTLIER on one end of the hermie bell curve with regular XY hermie in the middle.
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424916785
Reply with quote #13
If what they are doing with GA3 in Japan works on fig Breba crop, that means fig are ALL HERMIE!!!!
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424916883
Reply with quote #14
Man, I am a Hermaphrodite plant breeder (Cannabis primarily as I have my card in Oregon!) and I love PISTILLATE HERMIES for plant breeding! Now it looks they are in fig too!!! WAY COOL!!!
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424917354
· Edited
Reply with quote #15
So it looks like 'degree of hermaphroditism' in fig may be like that in Cannabis and hop and it is it is a quantitative trait. I did most postdoc at Cornell in quantitative genetics and the 'Hermaphrodite bell curve' appears to be a normal distribution in many 'so called diecious crops'!!! Again, I HATE THAT WORD DIOECIOUS AS IT LEADS TO INCORRECT ASSUMPTIONS AND CONCLUSIONS!!! But that sure is interesting that fig can be chemically induced in the Breba to make viable pollen and many times viable seed is produced naturally which tells me ALL FIG are hermaphrodites! Boy, does this open up a whole big area of breeding which Japan is looking into and we should be looking into. Fig breeders don't need Davis... do Cannabis breeders of feminized seed have a 'DAVIS'? I think not!...:)
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424920373
Reply with quote #16
These are the fig I bought on eBay from Florida Hill Nursery tissue culture stock last year: VDB, Dessert King, Lattarula Honey fig, Celeste, Brown Turkey and Green Ischia. I found a place on eBay that has Olympian tissue culture 4# pots and I am getting one of those and I am getting those inbred line seeds of that French Des Deux variety. When I can find tissue culture Osborne Prolific and maybe Stella, I will maybe get those too. Anything that does well or may do well in the PNW. I am not sure about Celeste and Green Ischia here in Corvallis, but local nurseries do sell them, I was just not sure if they were tissue culture, although they looked to be that way. So, to be sure, I got my stock from advertised tissue culture stock.....I'm in no hurry...:)
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424920460
Reply with quote #17
It is nice that tissue culture fig stock are readily available and not that expensive.
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424920695
Reply with quote #18
Also, now that I learned that Breba crops might be useful in breeding new and interesting S1 hybrid fig, I think I will concentrate on Breba crop producing fig as the potential for S1 hybrid crosses make them more interesting to me as a plant breeder and some of those like VDB are really good tasting too...:)
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424921818
Reply with quote #19
When I can go to eBay and order S1 hybrid seeds of known superior female cultivars of fig, that will be cool!...:) That paper on using GA3 to induce XX male flowers in female Breba fig must be a few years old. Is fig breeding in the USA in such disarray that stoner Cannabis breeders have a leg up on you all when it comes to synthetic hybrid production uisng chemically induced feminized pollen? I sure hope not!
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424921918
Reply with quote #20
Oh, and DON'T GIVE ME 'NO DAVIS' AS AN EXCUSE....I POINT TO THE CANNABIS STONER BREEDERS AND SAY, "TAKE A LOOK! DO THEY HAVE A DAVIS?" COME ON PEOPLE!!!
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424922060
Reply with quote #21
I cannot go on eBay yet and get feminized Cannabis seeds...SOON THOUGH...:) Although eBay does sell peyote and peyote seeds....GO FIGURE? But when I can get S1 hybrid fig FEMINIZED seeds on eBay, yep, that will be cool...:)
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424922223
Reply with quote #22
Oregon allows ANYONE to possess peyote if they 'declare for religious purpose' and you do not have to be native American...HOW COOL IS THAT?...:) I DECLARED!!! Those are cool pink flowered cacti...:) Soon on eBay...Cannabis feminized seeds...:), and hopefully soon after all this I will see some feminized fig S1 hybrid seeds...:)
CAJUNB
1341853571
Posted 1424922557
Reply with quote #23
How do you use the GA3?
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424922975
· Edited
Reply with quote #24
Like I say, my plate if full with Cannabis breeding, Peyote breeding (Interest in rare cacti, could care less about mescaline at this point in my life!), Orchid breeding an attempted germination (with the help of Western labs media AU..thanks Kevin..:) and now looking at this fig S1 hybrid thing. But fig is down on my list right now and besides my plants are only 8 inches tall in NC#1 pots going into NC#3 when they break dormancy. But my interest in hermaphrodite plants and the fact I like fresh figs sparked my interest and when I read up a little, I was like, AH OH.....People need some information on what looks to be going on in fig and hopefully this information will spark a big interest and attempt at making superior all female S1 hybrids like they are doing in Cannabis. The stoners have been EXTREMELY SUCESSFUL, SO WHY NOT FIG, WHEN EVIDENCE SUGGESTS IT CAN BE DONE AND IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE...IT'S STONER LEVEL SCIENCE PEOPLE!!! Again, I CAN MAKE FUN OF STONERS AS I AM A STONER...:)
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424923297
Reply with quote #25
Now I learn that Japan may be doing the S1 hybrid seed production and I have to ask, Why are we in the USA not doing this too? Decentralized fig breeding just like we have in Cannabis and make S1 hybrids using GA3 on the breba for feminized xx pollen.....This has to attempted here and hopefully my posts will spark some interest so fig breeders can 'CATCH UP' to the stoner Cannabis breeders...:) You don't want to be shown up by stoners do you fig breeders? Come on now...:)
CAJUNB
1341853571
Posted 1424923739
Reply with quote #26
But if you use the GA3 on one fig variant,the offspring will be the same as parent?
Let_alone_this_year_also
1377915674
Posted 1424923865
Reply with quote #27
So the theory is that injecting GA3 into proto breba will cause those fruits to produce pollen which can then be used on the main crop of another common fig cultivar and the seeds from those fertilized figs would effectively be a cross of the two without caprification, wasps, etc?
CAJUNB
1341853571
Posted 1424923989
Reply with quote #28
got it ,will give it a try,just ordered GA3 ............thanks
Let_alone_this_year_also
1377915674
Posted 1424924658
Reply with quote #29
The Holy Grail of Fig Alchemy?
CAJUNB
1341853571
Posted 1424925540
Reply with quote #30
So I understand all the fig seedings will be female,but will the offsprings be all the same or different ?
Let_alone_this_year_also
1377915674
Posted 1424926441
Reply with quote #31
Yeah, great question. Do the S1 hybrids remain stable into the next generation or do they throw seeds or sports that revert?
Greenguy
1404360005
Posted 1424927701
Reply with quote #32
Usually you have to inbreed a couple of times to stabilize the variety. All plants are a little different though.
CAJUNB
1341853571
Posted 1424928116
Reply with quote #33
OK,what two varieties would you use to make the very best cross and produces it best offsprings,any good ideas????????
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424930590
Reply with quote #34
The offspring will be slightly different, but not much. The differences that show up in Cannabis when feminized seed are produced are usually quantitative traits like yield. The flavor and bud structure appear the same. So, looking at fig, using XX feminized pollen in a cross will give you some variety due to what biologists call soma clonal variation, as 'soma' refers to gametes/sex cells....But again, this soma clonal variation is minor (at least in Cannabis) and I expect the same to be true for fig! Good posting on the crossing of two S1's as S1 is an F1 and when two S1's or F1's are crossed you get huge genetic recombination in the F2 and lots of variation! Still all female, but traits need to be fixed at this point and inbreds are best for making S1 hybrids like what is done in Cannabis and Maize!
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424931177
Reply with quote #35
If fig is in reality all hermaphrodite, then the BIGGEST BANG FOR THE THE BREEDING BUCK is in synthetic S1 hybrid production. You can stabilize traits from there and create new inbred lines and that is important, but the first thing you need to start looking into is the S1 production. What's going on in Japan, what are they doing? Get a hold of that paper...Read the Cannabis and GA3 paper that I posted a link to....Go to your library, University libraries are the best and get the Cannabis paper on producing male flowers in Cannabis with GA3 and go from there. When you have a good handle on what is going on with S1 hybrid production move on to fixing traits and creating new inbred pistillate hermaphrodite/all female lines for use in new S1 hybrids down the road....It sure looks like they are attempting this in Japan and FOR GOOD REASON!!! Fig breeders need about 15 years to catch up to the stoner Cannabis breeders using this technique...:) But, then again, I think stoners, at least some of them are pretty darn smart...:) But you fig breeders are smart too! You can do what the Cannabis breeders and Japanese fig breeders are doing and it is not that difficult. When you make your cross, seal the fig with tape/rubber bands and that Japanese cut paste and just use common sense and you will be pleasantly surprised....watch!
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424931616
Reply with quote #36
I'm pretty good at digging around finding papers and I will look for that Japanese paper on fig and GA3 and try to get a hold of it. But my guess is that Cannabis paper is all you will need. Now that paper was 1972 and the concentration of GA3 may be in ppm but it might be in w/vol...If you get stuck in how much GA3 to weigh out dissolved in a a little ethanol....go online and look up ppm or w/vol and they have tables. You can also go to the Chemistry CRC manual in any library and READ UP if you get stuck! They CRC manual has pmm and w/vol conversion tables! You need to get that GA3 concentration exactly as listed in the Cannabis paper w/vol and better get that Japanese paper on fig and get it translated and see what w/vol concentration they are injecting into fig Breba. My starting point and likely guess is that the concentration of GA3 is the same as that used in Cannabis for male flower induction.
CAJUNB
1341853571
Posted 1424934001
Reply with quote #37
I 've been reading about GA3 and its promotes great plant growth,I was wondering if it could be used as a rooting compound also?
greenfig
1359790036
Posted 1424934208
Reply with quote #38
If this has been done in Japan, do those hybrids have any names? Are they for sale and how much more superior they are compared to known varieties that are caprified?
Greenguy
1404360005
Posted 1424956017
Reply with quote #39
It is not saying they will be superior just you can breed Let's say two cold hardy Varieties together and know they should have cold hardy traights. More of your off spring should be common figs so the next process would to grow seeds from them then select ones that fruit early on then breed them together.so on and so on till you get the traits you want. It just gives you all females or hermaphrodites At the hydro store around here they sell a spray that mj growers spray on the bottom buds to get feminized seeds. Don't know if the spray is this ga3. I was planning on using this year for figs to see what would happpen
hoosierbanana
1287901146
Posted 1424957936
Reply with quote #40
This is what I was referring to, originally posted here Quote:
Originally Posted by mizuyari
CAJUNB
1341853571
Posted 1424958490
Reply with quote #41
But can you answer this question,why does one fig have to be a breba fig,why cant it be just on the main crop since you are using two female trees?
adoresfigs45
1421515059
Posted 1424960556
Reply with quote #42
I buy Hybiscus from Hidden Valley and they have a product they sell that has gibberellic acid in it. They tout it to wake up dormant hybiscus but don't recommend putting it on the roots. Its funny that this post turned up because I was getting ready to order from them. Joyce
hoosierbanana
1287901146
Posted 1424960662
Reply with quote #43
Even in caprifigs the only crop that produces male flowers and pollen is the breba (profichi).
aphahn
1354927274
Posted 1424961660
· Edited
Reply with quote #44
The use of bio active molecules for inducing apomixis has been studied. We discussed one of the papers here . I think this is an area that forum members should explore. I have some GA3, and will likely give that and a couple others mentioned in the paper a try. However... Creating a homozygous common fig strain is unlikely at best, receiving the gene for presistance from the mother is lethal.
Scion List
Rewton
1291943117
Posted 1424964208
Reply with quote #45
Andy, I haven't went through every post in this thread but can you or someone else tell me whether the S1 hybrid that you end up with from this process is diploid? Tetraploid? Something in between? I guess the root of my question is how the pollen arises from the breba treated with GA3. Is it by standard meiosis (and thus has a 1N chromosome number) or some other artificial process (in which case perhaps it is 2N)? Thanks!
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424964686
Reply with quote #46
"In April, blush or spray gibberellin of 10ppm on breba of common fig. They should all be female, half Common or San Pedro and half Smyrna."....This is NOT CORRECT! When using feminized pollen of an edible fig and cross onto another edible fig female, you get all edible fig females....How would you get San Pedro and Smyrna when they are not being used in the SI cross? You get ALL EDIBLE FIG AND 100% FEMALE, THIS IS WHY THE JAPANESE ARE DOING THIS!!!!
aphahn
1354927274
Posted 1424965120
Reply with quote #47
Steve, frankly I have no idea. I would assume diploid based on the description of the mechanism. S1 seems to be a term used in pot breeding for first generation self pollinated hybrid, not much literature about ploidy levels. Using a bioactive agent can induce higher ploidy, so it is unclear. In the apomixis paper the seedlings were diploid.
Scion List
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424965157
Reply with quote #48
The Japanese discovered GA3 way back and called it 'Foolish Rice Disease". The rice seedlings when treated with GA3 would bolt and not be able to support their weight and fall over....foolish rice.....So it is no surprise that their breeders realize that fig are ALL HERMAPHRODITE and can take advantage of the Hermie bell curve and produce feminized pollen in Breba for production of feminized pollen for feminized seed like in Cannabis....In doing so, they save time, money and get 100% edible female fig! There is NO WASTED SPACE OR TIME! This other post even must have the paper as he has the concentration of GA3. You fig breeders HAVE ALL THE INFO, YOU JUST FAILED TO CONNECT THE DOTS CORRECTLY BECAUSE YOU REALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND FIG BREEDING! YOU REALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND IF YOU DID NOT PICK UP ON THE FACT AS TO WHY THE JAPANESE ARE USING GA3 ON THEIR FIGS!!! THEY ARE DOING IT BECAUSE THEIR BREEDERS ARE SMART ENOUGH TO REALIZE THAT ALL FIG ARE HERMIES AND THE 'SO CALLED' FEMALE DIOECIOUS FIG IS ACTUALLY PISTILLATE HERMAPHRODITE WHICH ALLOWS FOR GA3 TO BE USED TO GET VIABLE FEMINIZED SEED IN GREAT QUANTITY FOR SYNTHETIC HYBRID PRODUCTION!!! THEY ARE DOING THIS FOR A REASON....IT WORKS AND THAT MEANS ALL FIG ARE HERMAPHRODITES ON THAT BELL CURVE!
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424965474
Reply with quote #49
I just happened to stumble on this because I have some figs and read that they are 'Gynodioecious' and again, that got me curious as a good plant breeder with an interest in how Quantitative Genetics relates to complex breeding systems in hermaphrodite crops like Cannabis and hop....I just happened to realize that it looks like fig is a hermaphrodite genera that fall into that hermie bell curve as hermie is quantitative genetic in origin! It sparked my interest and after reading about what Japan is doing with GA3 and what they are doing with Cannabis and feminized seed, I HAVE SPEAK UP AS YOU FIG BREEDERS HAVE ALL THE INFO BUT NOT CONNECTING THE DOTS CORRECTLY!!! THAT'S OK I AM REALLY GOOD AT 'CONNECTING THE DOTS' FOR PEOPLE, EVEN PLANT BREEDERS THAT HAVE NO CLUE WHAT IS GOING ON! GIVEN THE STATE OF FIG BREEDING IN THE USA, THIS IS NO SURPRISE!!!!
congatom
1424885132
Posted 1424965555
Reply with quote #50
But in 5 to 10 years, THIS CAN ALL CHANGE USING THIS S1 hybrid breeding as edible fig with Breba are pistillate hermaphrodite and GA3 is a tool you can use to get a good breeding program going and very cost effective!
