The way I understand this with the naming of figs - yes I know the naming of figs, and the way a fig is naturally produced, there is only one of that fig in the world until a cutting is taken from it.

Take the Black Madeira for example - yes I know the Black Madeira - was an "unknown" original, one of a kind fig until it was "discovered" in someones backyard.  The fig at some point in the future was donated to UC Davis where it was officially named.  Maybe the owners of it called it Black Madeira because they were Portuguese or new it was from Portugal and they were told it was Black Madeira.  

So, the real BM is at UC Davis and ALL the BM out there came from this ONE tree - is this close enough? 

Let's say it is,  so every "unknown" fig out there has the POTENTIAL of being even better than BM, but since it is not officially named and not propagated we'll never know.

I know this is very simplistic (or not), but is the general premise I laid out close?

source for the fig trees that we collect can be clear as mud. for my simple tracking, i use "original" source as the people who introduced the fig to this forum, or UCD, or nursery that sold the tree, and who i got it from. if someone asks for the source, i give those information. for example, my Kathleen's Black is from gene h.. i know gene got it from some lady named kathleen, and she got it from some nursery.. but i don't know kathleen and no one seems to know which nursery. my VdB is from gene h. also, but gene got it from Paradise Nursery that everyone recognize. so it's gene h./paradise and so on. UCD trees get really interesting. however, it's rather clear we use UCD as source for lot of things, so i just put UCD as source. 

Pete I understand that, what I'm referring to is you know the source of your KB - are ALL KB in the world from that same original tree, since to my understanding each fig tree grown from seed is a unique specimen never seen before or to be seen again (from seed)  - just like people!?

guess it could be like that, once upon a time there were only crab apples then oneday a seed mutated and made somthing else that was later grafted on other rootstocks, oranges as i understand are the same way, if you plant an orange seed you will most likly get a sour orange (great rootstock for grafting citrus) but there is that 1 in 1,000,000 chance that after 8 or 9 years when it fruits it will be a big surprise and highly sought after. its all a roll of the dice, if you have the land (lots of it) and the time to wait and see i am sure you could find somthing new. 

You know that is an excellent observation/question.  No idea.  Not a botanist, but what you are saying makes sense to me. 

Pete - So, if I had a VdB cutting or 3 from you that had rooted, it would say "VdB - Bullet08". But it could/should also say "VdB - Bullet08/gene/paradise"?

I'm gonna need bigger labels  :).  I can understand the need and desire to trave lineage, but its gonna get difficult. At least it makes sense though.

Joanne - that's what I understand too. That any plant grown from seed would be a brand new specimen due to the shuffling of DNA from pollen and ovum.

But all plants created through asexual reproduction (runners, division, cuttings) should be genetically identical...therefore I guess your scenario would be right.  All BM or VdB or even Brown Turkey, should be essentially THE same plant as the original (genetically).

Which is pretty cool, as figs are some of the oldest cultivated plants in human history.  And good cuttings would be passed around (as they are now) because growing from seed is difficult and unpredictable, someone could be unknowingly growing the same plant as a someone a few thousand years ago potentially?

Joann, that's the way I understand too. Cuttings would have to be passed around from that ONE particular tree to keep it going. If nobody took cuttings from that tree and it died, that certain tree would be lost forever. ?Correct?

Its cool to think that an awsome fig your growing and eating that that cutting came from a tree, that came from a tree, that came from a tree, so on and so forth. that Jesus himself could had eaten a fig from, or Maximus, or whoever down the lines of history. right  now i am cuttings rooted from a few trees that dies in sandy, some that lived through sandy. that little rooted stick has alot of history wrapped up in it and i am sure will see alot more.

So with that being said,does that mean that even though you have the best fig in the world,taste,size,hardiness,ect...it is not worth anything because it doesn't have the papers to go with it,just like dogs??!!!

JoAnn,

I think you are right. Since new and different fig comes from fertilized seed, it would be almost impossible to have two exact same tree without propagating from cutting or tissue culture. So, there will be a single source tree somewhere unless it died.

Hmmm.. This will not sit well with some of my friends. I'm sure to some of my friends, new fig was not due to reproduction, but god said let there be a new fig. :)

Mario, I think there is a gray area the size of - well really big!  If you get a pup from a shelter that is a - pup. it grows up, you love it, it loves you and you have a bond with the dog that is amazing.  Is it not worth anything because it doesn't have the papers to with it?  NO!!!!!!!!!  It has the value YOU have with it!!!  Now, if other people see the amazing traits in this dog - intelligence, athletic, obedient, empathetic etc. and would like to have a dog like that also, the ONLY thing they can do is find another of the opposite sex that has similar traits, put the 2 together (with your permission of course!) and then hopefully in a couple months there might be a few to choose from, that could potentially have the same traits as the parents.

With figs, if you have the best in the world,taste,size ect., and you want everyone to know about it, does it matter if has the right name?  Probably not, you want to let people know and share it - that's the value to start with.  Then after years of everyone growing this fig, some official will get a cutting and a sample of the fruit, grow it, send it to his buddies, everyone agree about the best etc. then they name it. 

Maybe not exactly like that, but you get the point.  In Pete's example of KB, she got it from a nursery at some point, some place - there could be thousands of them out there - your example could be one and you don't even know it!

My head hurts now.;)

My does to....

Any random seed grown plant is going to have a chance to be 'better' than BM, albeit a small one.  ;-)  That is to say that every organism has a unique genetic variance profile, where a true BM is a genetic clone of an original unique genetic variance profile.  

Commercial value, intrinsic value, personal value. Great topic for philosophicla discussion. Talk to orchid snobs. They will set you striaght in a hurry. 

Ideally yes all individuals of a variety originate as clones from a single mother tree. It is interesting to think about thousands of trees being clones of an original tree that may have died hundreds of years ago.