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eboone

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Posted Reply with quote  #1 
:)  from my initial post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by eboone

I might pepper the forum with questions in the near future...


A few newbie questions about Fig Mosaic Virus.  Some of these may have been discussed in the past but it is hard to do a search here on the subject - everyone writes 'FMV' and the forum search engine won't search for 3 letter words.  I have tried to read some on the subject here and elsewhere.  I like to understand what I am doing and what problems I will be dealing with in advance. 

1. Can someone point me to more info online on FMV?

2. Where is this virus endemic in the 'Old World' and here in the 'New World'?  Is it found in the soil in places where infected figs have grown, or does it reside only in fig plants or the disease vectors (the insects that transmit it from one plant to another)?

3. Would you expect every fig tree or cutting brought over from the Eastern Hemisphere to have FMV?

4. Are there vectors everywhere that will transmit it from an infected fig to one that does not have it, or are the vectors specific to certain locations?

5. Are most or all fig varieties infected with this virus?  Some readings suggested that possibly the 'new' LSU releases raised from seed a few yrs back may not have FMV. 

6. If a plant is obtained from a nursery in CA is it more likely to have FMV than a nursery in the South or East?

7. It sounds like there are more effects on some varieties of figs than others - how do we know if a variety is considered 'smaller' if it is due to effects of FMV or just a genetic difference?  Or if a variety is considered more vigorous or more productive it is because it does not have FMV? (does it even matter...)

8. Are there cultural factors that make a fig plant's susceptability to FMV or the expression of the virus worse?  I.E. - are there things we should not do to our plants because it makes the FMV symptoms worse?  I assume keeping a plant healthy in general helps it to survive the effects of FMV better.

9. Are there tests available to see if your plant has FMV, if there is no expression of the virus traits in the leaves? Affordable and available tests, I guess is a better question.

I guess that is enough questions on the subject...for now anyway. Thanks for any responses in advance.
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Posted Reply with quote  #2 
http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/article-on-fmv-and-stress-6232861
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Gina

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Posted Reply with quote  #3 
Much already has been written here in past threads. While the search here (upper right corner) won't accept something as short as FMV, you can search for 'virus' or 'mosaic' and find more information. Put either word in 'search' select 'subject' and you fill find several threads. When you have read those, please feel free to ask more questions.

When I first started collecting figs it was a concern to me. Some plants have it worse than others, but now I don't much care.

Welcome to the forum - you will find much information here. :)
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Posted Reply with quote  #4 
Ed,
Welcome to the forum community.

1. These questions have all been asked before and have been discussed on the forum for years.
You can get a lot of answers by reading through past topics starting with the "Start Here" pinned to the Opening Forum page. You will find a web search procedure to Google search the entire web and forum for key words (use site:figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com FMV  in a Google search) and The FAQ with some FMV links and descriptions.
When I started growing figs last Year, FMV was a concern, so I did a little research and observation and came to a few conclusions which I posted in a Topic on the Forum, and several members contributed to the discussion.

2. Mediterranean climates. Virus, not soil borne. Plant Borne vectored by fig mites
3. Possible.
4. Possibly by sucking insects.
5. Possibly if exposed in the right environment.
6. Possibly due to presence of mites in California.
7. Unknown at this time, but DNA testing is available, at a price.
8. Using best cultural practice and reducing stress will produce healthier plants.
9. DNA testing

Good Luck.
javajunkie

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Posted Reply with quote  #5 
I'm with Gina on the subject. I really don't much care. I have started over fertilizing my trees that are showing bad signs and it seems to help.
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eboone

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Posted Reply with quote  #6 
Thanks all for the responses, and ascpete for your detailed answers.  I have seen a good bit of the info linked online already, but it looks like there is still lots of information to digest.
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Ed
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greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #7 
Ed,
Welcome to the forum!
I would also add that what sometimes looks like a case of fmv, maybe simply a case of a mulnutrition. This is especially true for the pot grown figs.
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susieqz

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Posted Reply with quote  #8 
ed, don't let anyone kid you. it is possible to have figs without fmv. some of us keep the icky virus out, but it's hard. i have clean trees because i burn infected ones

note that only a few of us believe that fmv is evil and should be avoided. most of the very nice [but mistaken'] people here think it's no big deal.
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susie 
wish list:  nothing. i can't grow cuttings  . right now, i have  6 trees showing no signs of fmv. i'd like to keep it that way' 

i was told that if i couldn't deal with fmv, i should grow peaches, so i got a peach tree to live with my clean figs.
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Posted Reply with quote  #9 
If it freaks you out, grow peaches. If you grow figs, it is a fact of life.
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susieqz

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Posted Reply with quote  #10 
i don't fight about this jon. nor do i criticize people who choose to live with it. my friends think it's no big deal, and they are my friends, including you.
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susie 
wish list:  nothing. i can't grow cuttings  . right now, i have  6 trees showing no signs of fmv. i'd like to keep it that way' 

i was told that if i couldn't deal with fmv, i should grow peaches, so i got a peach tree to live with my clean figs.
eboone

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Posted Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitangadiego
If it freaks you out, grow peaches. If you grow figs, it is a fact of life.


Actually I do grow peaches - I have for the past 23 years, currently have 8 trees and planning for a few more next spring. Looking to branch out to figs!

At least I can treat my peach trees' diseases ;) (It took a while to learn to do it well)
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Ed
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eboone

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Posted Reply with quote  #12 
Okay, just a few more FMV questions:

From my reading I find no documentation of the specific mite that spreads FMV from tree to tree living in the US outside of California. Is there any evidence for that mite elsewhere is US?

Is there any documentation of other chewing critters like leafhoppers or beetles being able to spread FMV?

Finally, there is evidence in other species of roots of nearby specimens growing together and spreading pathogens among themselves. Has this been documented in figs? I know figs are amazing but please note that I am not asking about plants in neighboring containers :)

Thanks for the answers
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Ed
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ascpete

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Posted Reply with quote  #13 
Ed,

A document by University of Agriculture in Turkey  linked in several FMV topics,
Quote:
It was previously reported that FMD can be transmitted by vegetative propagation material and an eriophyd mite, A. ficus (Flock and Wallace, 1955), but not by seeds (Martelli et al., 1993). In this case, FMD must have been transmitted into these seedlings by eriophyd mites. In our ongoing studies, this mite transmits FMD agents into healthy fig seedlings (Çağlayan et al., unpublished data).

, a document by UC Davis which is linked in the FAQ Glossary under Fig Mosaic Virus,
Quote:
COMMENTS ON THE DISEASE
Black Mission is the most seriously damaged cultivar; Kadota and Calimyrna are the least affected. Ficus palmata, or trees derived from seedlings having F. palmata as the male parent, appear to be immune to mosaic. The fig mosaic is vectored by the eriophyid mite Aceria fici; feeding by a single mite is sufficient to transmit the virus to a healthy seedling of F. carica. The virus can also be transmitted by grafting, but it is not seed borne.

and a more detailed UC Davis article on Fig Mites and Virus transmittal (Flock and Wallace, 1955)

No Documentation of transmittal by any other chewing or sucking insects or even cutting implements...
<Edit> But I dust with Food Grade Diatomaceous Earth and sanitize my implements with a 10% bleach solution anyway.

No Documentation of transmittal by root contact...
Tam

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Posted Reply with quote  #14 
Welcome to the Fig Forum.

Best,
Tam
MichaelTucson

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Posted Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed
Is there any documentation of other chewing critters like leafhoppers or beetles being able to spread FMV? 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete
No Documentation of transmittal by any other chewing or sucking insects or even cutting implements...


Despite the apparent absense of documentation that other vectors exist beside this mite, there are a lot of people who believe that other sucking insects can spread these viruses.  I'm one of those people, and there are lots of others.  The difficulty in documenting it stems from a several factors:  a) it's difficult to obtain a tree that is objectively proven to be free of all of the viruses, and b) it's so expensive to test for all of the viruses, and c) carefully controlling for the absense of a particular vector like that mite is also difficult  (for example, when you introduce any new sample to act as a "dirty source" / i.e. one that contains some cocktail of the viruses, at that point proving that you didn't also introduce the specific mite or its larvae into the experiment is also rather difficult).  It'd be difficult to demonstrate all of the requisite factors with any reasonable control.  But there are people who are observant enough to have developed strong opinions that other vectors exist.  Don't be lulled by the argument that the mite can't survive in some places... it doesn't need to live through a winter if it was introduced along with an imported tree.  There do however seem to be climactic factors affecting how severely various symptoms are expressed, for at least some of the viruses' symptoms.

(Also note that there are at least 8 viruses that are implicated in what gets referred to as "FMV" or "FMD"... you'll find references to documentation of that elsewhere on this site).

Heuristic methods for managing your trees are probably more promising, though there were some articles on here a while back about methods of "cleaning" trees.  (I've forgotten who referenced those topics on here... it may have been DWD2).

Mike   central NY state, zone 5a
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Posted Reply with quote  #16 
Mike from files i have read on subject -  a study and experiment that worked was they extract the meristem from earliest developement of a plant shoot useing a lab binocular microscope and cultivate it a certain way in sterile enviroment in the lab.

After a year growing the propagated plant in also a sterile environment said plant was indexed and was found to be clean.
But as one can imagine it would be costly to have it done and afterwards may be re-infected .
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Posted Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
note that only a few of us believe that fmv is evil and should be avoided. most of the very nice [but mistaken'] people here think it's no big deal.


I'm not sure it's possible, but if you can avoid it, great. But there are areas in the US where the mite that spreads it lives and survives mild winters, and we can't avoid it - hence FMV is likely in most of our trees or soon will be. Some are obviously worse than others either because of different strains, susceptibility, or multiple infections - and sadly even source of cuttings. I figure all my trees have it, though some appear healthier than others. I've also found some sources of plants, mostly private ones, do seem to have less serious disease.

I would far prefer that FMV did not exist and that all my trees were totally healthy and grew better and faster - but that is never going to be the case out here. Yes, I've seen and cringed at some of the erroneous comments saying 'it does not matter', and I think for a time that was the prevailing opinion. Alas having virus does matter both in terms of growth, survival in cold climates, productivity, and just plain aesthetics, but in certain areas it can't be helped, and where it's warm it is less harmful to the plants. Here it is like getting old - you can't prevent it so you make the best of it, and eventually come to just ignore it.
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Posted Reply with quote  #18 
Martin -- ah yes, that sounds like the same procedure I'd seen referenced.  (Or one of them anyway... it seems there may have been multiple different techniques after the meristem extraction... maybe one involved heat and another some kind of bleaching agent?  I don't remember, because the net of it all was that it wasn't a practical way to avoid FMV).  Anyway, thanks for pointing it out Martin... I don't know where the reference articles are but your description matches what I remember too.  

I guess the technique really doesn't matter anyway in practical terms, because as you point and is pretty apparent, reinfection will happen anyway.  But just in terms of even doing the experiments to try to prove whether or not other little biting/sucking bugs can spread the virus, it's just so expensive and difficult to prove that I don't think anyone's done it rigorously.  But just because it hasn't been proven rigorously that it does happen, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  (Just because you can't prove something is true doesn't mean that it isn't true).  I believe it does happen, and there's plenty of anecdotal evidence from others who (like me) live in a place where Aceria fici doesn't live that something is moving these viruses from tree to tree.  I can't prove it, but I think it's true.

Mike   central NY state, zone 5a
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Posted Reply with quote  #19 
<Edit>,
There seems to be a misunderstanding about the two (2) main vectors for spreading Fig Mosaic Virus (FMV). They are Fig Mites and Fig Growers, this is not an opinion, its documented fact. There are several universities in the USA and The Mediterranean, in commercial fig growing regions that have published papers with that statement.

Fig Mites are related to spiders and ticks. They do not cut, tear, rip or munch plant material, they insert <puncture> their "mouth parts" through the plant cell membranes and suck out the plant fluids, in the process their "saliva" inoculates the plant cells with Mosaic Viruses, if they had been feeding on other infected plants. They can survive in unopened dormant buds and figs, but can only survive in temperate zones and do not "over winter".

Fig Growers graft, propagate and circulate infected plant material. They also imported fig cultivars, Capri figs and Fig wasps from the Mediterranean to improve the commercial fig industry. Due to the fact that Fig Mites can survive in figs and closed buds they have been relocated with the wasps and plant material to their new homes in these temperate zones. This is not an indictment, just a statement of known documented facts.
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Posted Reply with quote  #20 
Pete, there's no misunderstanding at all, at least not here with me.  Thanks for being informative to the readers of this thread though about details of the mechanism of infection by A. fici.  I've read those papers too, that describe the mechanism by which Aceria fici infect fig trees with viruses.  Not meaning to split hairs, but inserting mouth parts through membranes to suck out fluids really might involve some tearing.  It's just a matter of what scale (size of object) you look at, and what constitutes "tearing".  They penetrate membranes.  But to focus on details like this entirely misses the point of what I was stating.  I won't quibble over the details about whether the wording should be "tear" or "puncture" or "surgically insert"... the mechanism doesn't really matter so much for the point I was stating.

So let me try it this way.  You have a statement that includes the phrase:  "... the two (2) main vectors for spreading Fig Mosaic Virus (FMV)".  I think you've left out an important word.  I think you are overstating what is documented fact, versus what is unknown.  I think what you meant is more like "... the two (2) main known vectors for spreading Fig Mosaic Virus (FMV)".  (Alternatively, you could substitute "proven" or "documented" for the word "known").  I agree entirely that the two main known/proven/documented vectors for spreading Fig Mosaic Viruses are, as you say, Fig Mites (Aceria fici) and fig growers.  It is documented fact that those are two known vectors.  But there's another question entirely:  Are there other vectors as well?  Unknown.  Maybe.  Maybe not.  There is no documentation of other vectors.  But the fact that nobody has demonstrated conclusively the existence of another vector, does not mean that other vectors don't exist.  It simply means that nobody has yet proven the existence of other vectors.  However, there are some observant researchers who strongly suspect that there are other vectors.  (Similarly I think there are researchers who suspect that the mechanism of infection is so specific that it's unlikely there are other organisms that spread these infections).  Nobody has proven it.  Will anybody do the studies to prove it?  I don't know... given the ubiquity of Aceria fici in the regions where figs are grown commercially, there may be little economic incentive to do such studies.  Especially considering the difficulties (expenses) involved.  But please do not confuse the fact of two documented vectors to in any way mean that it is somehow a documented fact that there are only those two vectors.  That question is simply unanswered, and you can draw no factually-based conclusion about that (until/unless someone does a study that proves another vector).  The existence of A and B does not prove the non-existence of C.

Your statements about overwintering and small scale habitat for A. fici are consistent with my statements as well.  Our logic is the same in this respect.  (I was simply warning people not to conclude that they don't have Fig Mites around simply because they are in a cold climate.  If they've imported trees or any materials that contain some Fig Mites, then until every place where their Fig Mites are living has become incompatible with survival of those little suckers, they cannot prove that they aren't present).  (Consider that even in a frozen winter locale such as ours, if you keep fig trees indoors the mites can survive there, and then still be present around your trees the next season, even after a winter has passed).  I think we are consistent, you and I, in our under statements that one cannot assume the absence of Fig Mites just because you live in a place where they are not typically populous.  A fig grower may well have imported some Fig Mites and failed to eradicate them, even in USDA zone 5a.

This isn't an indictment either, Pete.  I know that you didn't state that there are only two vectors for spreading these viruses, but you did imply it.  ("... the two main vectors").  So I just want to be clear in this discussion.  I think there are still plenty of unknowns, despite the details of what is known.  As far as I've seen, it's still unknown (or unproven) whether there are other vectors.

The discussion reminds me of the old joke:  Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't all out to get you.  :-)

Mike   central NY state, zone 5a
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Posted Reply with quote  #21 
Mike,
My point was to clarify my answer to the questions that were asked. Ed specified the word "documentation" in all his questions, that's what I was addressing as concisely as possible. All the anecdotal information and personal observations are documented in the posted FMV Topics that are available in a Forum website archive search.
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Posted Reply with quote  #22 
No worries Pete, thanks for saying.  But since you had originally addressed your posting to me specifically I thought it appropriate to respond, particularly since you were refuting something I had stated.  I see you've recently edited several of the statements in your posting that I was responding to.  That makes a couple of my response points look a little silly to anyone reading through the thread now.  (I treat these posting threads primarily as discussion forums, and I think open discussion is healthy and helpful.  But I guess the discussion aspect of it appears disjointed if you go back and edit your statements after there has been a response to what you stated).  But no matter -- I'm fairly sure you did that in the interest of clarity rather than anything else.  Still, I won't bother going back to change what I wrote.  My essential points are summed up thus:
  • The existence of A and B does not prove the non-existence of C.
  • There may well be additional vectors for the spread of the "FMV" viruses, besides Fig Mites (Aceria fici) and Fig Growers.
  • It is not a documented fact that those are the only two vectors.  However it is a documented fact that those two things are vectors.
Be well.  I hope your fig crop was good this year!

Mike   central NY state, zone 5a
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Posted Reply with quote  #23 

I'm sorry if you were offended by my post. I  had actually written then deleted the first sentence in post #21 which roughly said, " I apologize if my post in any way inferred that you were not knowledgeable on the subject of Fig Mosaic Virus vectors", I deleted it because I though that it sounded condescending.

I am a bit confused because you state that this should be a discussion, which I agree, but it seems that you are turning it into an argument. I personally dislike arguments, but.

The three (3) edits that I made to my Two (2) posts do not change the meaning or intent of my comments in any way nor "disjoints" the  Thread.
In post # 13, I  added " But I dust with Food Grade Diatomaceous Earth and sanitize my implements with a 10% bleach solution anyway".
In post # 20, I deleted your Forum name "MichaelTucson" and added "puncture" per your following post, and noted the edits for future references as I have always done.

Every statement that I have made in this topic has been written by me in many previous posts.

I hope that you will have a happier day.
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Posted Reply with quote  #24 
I think it would be a sad time to eliminate all specimens which exhibit sings of FMV from my collection.  It would be similar to avoiding driving all roads with any potholes - I'd miss out on some very wonderful things.  Panache is my favorite fig.  I've seen some leaves expressing the effects of FMV on my tree but don't see any signs today.  Branches have grown 5'-7' this year with essentially no fertilizers ever given to this tree for the four years it's been in the ground.  Since around 7/24 I've picked several figs on most days until recent cooler weather.  What more could I want?  My Yellow Long Neck is surrounded by a half dozen trees that show FMV with branches rubbing, etc. yet it has not show any symptoms of FMV, has grown vigorously, and is very productive.  I have no idea if it is FMV free or not and don't really care.

Now, some varieties lack vigor and it might be because of being infected with several strains of FMV (I've heard there seven have been identified in some trees at NCGR/Davis by Duarte Nursery).  I've considered having a couple cleaned up and a lab has offered to do this for me for $2,000 per variety.  I am considering it. But I need to decide what I would then do to ensure they stayed clean (or at least some back-up specimens).
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Tam

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Posted Reply with quote  #25 
Very good information, thanks for sharing.

Best,
Tam
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Posted Reply with quote  #26 
Harvey -- wow, $2000 per variety!  You must be really dedicated to figs to consider spending that much!  Are you growing figs on a commercial scale now?  I agree with your last point especially:  the whole problem with any of this stuff about cleaning up FMV is the problem of reinfection.  So instead of focusing on how to get rid of those nasty viruses, instead I put my efforts into helping the trees stay as healthy as they can be with respect to the other aspects of basic care.  That's easier to address, and seems reasonably effective for the most part.  My impressions are that in general, the symptoms and negative impacts from FMV are reduced in trees that are well cared for and free from other health problems.  Granted, overall tree health involves a complicated dynamic (FMV probably weakens their ability to fight off other pathogens?), but regardless, basic care of the trees seems reasonably effective at allowing most trees to be productive and reasonably healthy despite FMV.  Your Yellow Long Neck story sounds great.  

But especially when you mention some varieties lacking vigor and speak of several strains of FMV (i.e. different combinations of the various viruses that cause "FMV" or "FMD"), that hits home with me.  I've seen similar things (trees showing few or no symptoms, despite being surrounded by trees with more severe symptoms).   Yet at the same time other trees that appear relatively clean become symptomatic when surrounded by the same trees.  I suspect it's as you described -- I think it's likely that some of my trees have different combinations of the viruses.  But why wouldn't they all get infected with all of the viruses that any of them has?  I don't know.  Maybe the really are all infected with the same sets of different viruses, but some of them are just better able to "fight off the effects".  More resistant or better able to appear healthy and show only milder symptoms.  All of that might be what's going on, whether because of differences in fig varieties or just differences in individual trees.  But it also might be that some of the trees are infected with different cocktails of the multiple viruses.  If that's so, then why would some of the viruses spread from tree to tree, while others wouldn't?  IF that's the case (a big if), then it could suggest there are different vectors for different of the eight (or more) viruses involved.  For what it's worth, that mystery is what fuels my interest in understanding the way these viruses spread, and whether the vectors are the same for each of the viruses.  I suspect not, but it's just a suspicion and I'm not willing to spend much money to find out.  Better resistance among individual trees (or among different varieties) seems equally likely as an explanation of what I see with these trees.  If you actually do any of that "cleaning" stuff, whatever your experience is afterward would be fascinating to hear about! 

Pete -- I didn't mean to sound personally argumentative in post #22.  Sure I expressed some mild disagreement about a subtle point, but I thought I was doing it politely and respectfully.  I really don't see it as argument in any personal sense, and feel no personal angst toward you (actually I think of you as a "fig friend"... my family sometimes chuckles about me spending time with my fig friends).  Disagreement isn't inherently bad, is it?  (I guess disagreement is inherently "disagreeable" though... lol).  Anyway I tried sending an email but couldn't find a way to get that message to you privately.  Peace.

Ed -- sorry if any of this looks like hijacking your thread.  Maybe I'll go back into the woodwork for awhile now.

Mike   central NY state, zone 5a
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Posted Reply with quote  #27 
Mike - Actually I am glad that people are sharing their opinions on FMV/FMD along with a good dose of science to back it up.  Unfortunately it seems there is not enough research into the matter at this time to accurately diagnose all FMV/FMD effects, let alone treat them.  I appreciate the input everyone has contributed to my education!
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Posted Reply with quote  #28 
Mike,
We're good. Chalk it up to a misunderstanding on my part. I believed that the Anecdotal information and observations about FMV would have been found by Ed (eboone) once he read through the many topics on FMV on the Forum, since so much information had been posted.

Ed,
IMO, due to the fact that there is currently little that can be done once a tree is infected with FMV, the use of best cultural practice with anecdotal information from the Forum would be the best course of action if you wanted to grow an FMV symptomatic fig cultivar. Many infected trees grow healthier and produce with a little extra attention paid to fertilization ("over fertilization") and soil.

Also my observation has been that many symptoms of nutrient deficiency (FMD) are often mis-diagnosed as being caused by FMV.
recomer20

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Posted Reply with quote  #29 
Dr. Jim Jacobi (Plant Pathology, Auburn Univ/Bham Botanical Gardens) sent me a link to an interesting 2010 U.S. study re: FMV, which poses that whether the FMV expresses in a plant, or in extreme cases kills the plant, may be a result of synergistic effects of multiple viruses present in a plant (i.e., FMV plus another strain).

http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/47395/PDF

In summary, multiple viruses were detected in hard-hit plants with the following presumed vectors (in addition to transmission by cuttings/grafts from infected donor stock):
  • FMV belongs to the genus Emaravirus that includes viruses related to tospoviruses and is transmitted by the eriophyid mite Aceria ficus. 
  • Several closteroviruses [AFCV-1&2] belonging to the genera Closterovirus and Ampelovirus, presumably transmitted by aphids and mealybugs respectively, have been found in fig in Europe, North Africa, the Middle East, and the United States [9, 13].
  • FLMaV (the virus found alongside FMV in mediterranean/middle east countries) was not found in these test subjects, however, the AFCV found was so similar as to be nearly identical
  • Badnaviruses  [FBV-1] are vectored primarily by mealybugs and aphids and thus FBV-1 may share vectors with the closteroviruses that infect the crop. 
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