herman

ive been reading a lot of your old posts amd i notice that you reference that your trees are "disease free".  i also read in many other posts that people claim that all figs have some form of fmv.

i respect your depth of knowledge amd am very interested in your oponion whether all trees have fmv or whether that is a myth.

Your amswer will help determine how i build my collection

iT IS POSITIVELLY A MITH.
If Ischia Black in UCD Collection,has FMV,it does not mean that all Ischia Black come from that particular tree.
In Backyards all over Europe there are Single tree of Ischia Black .that were cuttings from Healthy trees and they remain like that with no possibility of contact with other fig trees in a orchard where the spreading agent ,Acaria fici )moves from tree to tree injecting the virus.
Some single healthy trees are way outside the influence of Acaria fici range so they will stay clean and healthy as long as the Gardener doesn't try the "magic" of grafting another diseased scion on the old plant,and in the process infected the mother tree.
Fig trees can live 500 years or more,of course only healthy tree live that long,so they are usually the one  people take cuttings from.
Diseased trees die in a few years so nature work for the survival of species,in fact it cleans and eliminate the problem tree.
If people will be more caring,they will not propagate diseased ,FMV infected trees,but it seem they do it any way assuming all trees are diseased.
I do not think that the tree in Santiago de Chille ,city center planted by first Spaniards conquistadors,in the 15 Century,that is still alive today,if it was infected with FMV.
Not all my fig selection are Fig mosaic virus free because I could not find healthy replacement for some of the special cultivars like Ischia Black,Noire de Barbentane,and Verdal Longue.
When I find ,healthy specimen of those,I will discard the infected trees.
What I said,is that the Virus doesn't spread here,in my climate,because the acaria fici mite does not live here because of Winter conditions,and so,my trees does not infect one another.
That is what I said.
I also do not graft on my trees ,period,that is so I do not spread the virus trough grafting.

Well I guess if you can source from a place where the mite doesn't live you will get fmv free, but not many are able to do that and that leaves a whole lot of the figs in this country infected with fmv. So with the exception of a few in Herman's collection and perhaps a few others that leaves probably 99.99% with some amount of infection in this country. I do know that Herman also has a system of care that gives his figs the best of conditions possible considering his location. he feeds them the right stuff in the right amounts, mulches, limes etc. His trees all look amazing! 

One other fact has to be told:
Every cultivar was clean,when it was first born from a chance seed.
Fig mosaic virus is not inherited in the new Embryo.
So as it is known as fact,is :Birds ,bats,and other animals eat the fruits and the seeds does not get damaged in the intestinal tract so they are  taken many,miles away from mother tree ,and dropped there .
They grow in the new place ,as totally healthy trees,and that is where people find them usually full of ripe fruits,and decide they are worthy to be grown in their backyard.
They Bring them home and plant them,sometime isolated from other fig trees,one fig in one backyard.
So a tree like that will remain healthy for hundreds of years ,if left alone.
Cuttings from that tree will make healthy new trees,initially,no doubt.
In Time if some new rooted trees are planted in large orchards,where the Acaria Fici lives those will turn in infected trees very fast.

And ... there you have the rest of the story. 

Not all trees have FMV, and clean trees will remain clean, especially in colder climates, or when not infected by mites, or grafting.   FMV trees in colder climates probably will fail over the years, because the virus weakens the trees, and they can't survive.  Good riddance!

Too bad West Coast, and other sources, don't strive a little harder to clean up their stock, and clean up the gene pool so that the rarer varieties will be worth the time and trouble to grow and preserve for the future.  It's a real shame that growers and collectors don't rip these organizations, like UC Davis, a new one, for spreading so much diseased wood around the country.  I've said this before...in my view, UC Davis is the modern equivalent of "Typhoid Mary", in the world of figs.

Just my thoughts.

Frank

FMV seems to be a touchy subject, and people with far more knowledge and experience than I have hold differing opinions on the matter. I won't try to deal with the question of how wide-spread it is, because I don't know what's correct and what isn't.

But... at least in my yard, where most, if not all, of my figs have FMV, I don't see much to worry about over the long haul (I recognize that things are different elsewhere, particularly where it gets cold).

Here are shots of my Black Madeira (UCD cutting from 2010) that has a heavy case of FMV--earlier this spring, and today. As you can see in the photo, several branches have grown much faster than their FMV-distorted counterparts. It'll be interesting to see how they do next spring, but so far the tendency among my trees has been to improve each year. New, healthy growth seems to quickly outgrow the bad. Usually the first leaves of spring are somewhat distorted, but they are typically followed by foliage that seems pretty normal. This tree is my worst case, but over time I'll prune away the symptomatic branches and I expect it won't be long before it looks healthy all over.

I believe thrips also are vectoring the virus, I have trees this year that never showed signs of virus, nor the parent trees, which are now showing symptoms and I have seen enough thrips to believe that it was them.

It would be impossible for most people growing figs on the west coast to clean up anything. FMV is common here and any trees that got 'cleaned up' somehow would immediately be re-infected again.

Earlier this year one of varieties I acquired was from someone growing 'disease-free' plants. Guess what? My plants here in the west now have 'it'. Now did the FMV silently come with the plants only to express itself in my different, warmer environment, or were they newly infected by the numerous figs (most likely with mites) already growing in my area?

Figs and the various strains of the virus have been around together for eons. The virus didn't just pop up out of nowhere - figs and virus are an ancient pairing. Just like flu and birds.

Of course man, world traveling, propagating, trading cuttings etc may have made it worse, but there is no reasonable way to stop any of this.

What to do about it? We each have to decide this for ourselves based to a great extent on where we live and what we expect from our trees. I'd rather have disease-free trees for many reasons, but I believe that is totally impossible out here.

I think most would disagree with your assessment of UCDavis Frank, many consider it a vital service that they provide. Obviously ridding stock of fmv is not doable under current circumstances or it would've happened. There are far too many excellent varieties that have fmv for me, or most here, to eliminate from consideration, but this is America and you can choose to do whatever it is that makes you happy. How many people do you know who have never been afflcited by chicken pox? Once in their systems and it stays for life, evidence is Shingles which is caused by a secondary infection of the same virus. Glad I don't have to eliminate those people from my life. 

I agree with Barry. UC Davis performs a valuable service. They operate one of the very few breeding programs out there. And without their orchards and stewardship, it is likely that some of the heirloom varieties many of us have come to enjoy would be difficult or impossible to get.

Some of the questions about FMV (for example, do all trees carry it?; or, is there a cure?) can't be answered without scientific study. And for several reasons, I think it's unlikely that anyone will fund that kind of research anytime soon.

First, the size of the U.S. fig market is pretty small. According to the Agricultural Marketing Resource Center, the estimated value of the entire 2010 U.S. fig crop was only $22.1 million. Compare that to peaches ($614.6 million) or even cranberries ($465 million). It would be hard for a government, college, company, or trade association to justify serious research for such a small market, unless the problem was pretty serious.

Second, it's hard to quantify what amount of harm FMV actually imposes. It makes leaves look funny (which isn't a consideration for commercial growers), and it may make some varieties more difficult to propagate and less productive once they're established. Those particular varieties typically aren't the ones grown by commercial growers. It's possible that I've missed something, but I haven't seen anything about FMV ravaging commercial fig orchards. And since FMV doesn’t seem to be a real issue for commercial growers, it seems unlikely that anyone in a position to do so will spend the money necessary to study FMV in depth.

So the problem is really one for people like us to work out. Personally, I think the weird-looking leaves and occasional propagation disappointments are a worthwhile price to pay for the opportunity to try out new and potentially great figs. In my experience, FMV hasn’t been a real issue (aside from leaf appearance, sometimes) once trees are established.

If your goal is to keep pristine trees with perfectly formed leaves, you can try to do that, but I think you’ll be disappointed. You’ll be drastically limiting the range of cultivars available to you. You’ll also be ruling out some of the most reputable sources of cuttings and trees. You’ll need to find 100% reliable sources of uninfected trees, and to be safe, you should probably throw out all of your infected trees. I have no way of knowing for sure, but my hunch is that FMV spreads from tree to tree pretty much everywhere. If you’ve ever seen leafhoppers, stinkbugs, aphids, or any other sap sucking insects on your trees, bugs have probably already carried the sap (and any pathogens in it) from one tree to another many times.

Matt, I wish UC Davis still was breeding, they no longer make specific crosses with persistent males. They distribute seeds but they are randomly pollinated.

Also, the virus is held within the cells, so normal sucking insects do not transfer the disease. It takes the specific mite to transfer the disease into the cells, and the biggest threat to a collection is infected cuttings which carry the mites. Many pests such as those mites cannot survive our cold winters but would be happy to live out the spring and summer.

There have been studies of the virus done in Turkey and other European countries, it does vary in damage according to which strain or strains affect the trees.

Some of the comments in the above postings were very informative, self-explanatory, and gave me some insight as to why the West-Coast trees will probably never be FMV free, mainly because of re-infection.  That's too bad, but, a fact of life.


On the East-Coast, most growers in cooler climes have an option.  I choose not to deal with it.  What others choose to grow, and, why, is no business of mine.  I've never suggested otherwise, yet some feel they must convince me to reconsider.  Thank-you...but, I pass.  You are entitled to your opinions.  So am I. 

Frank

Brent:I can see ,you studied the Subject of Fig mosaic virus ,more scientific than I am.
My practical observation,point to the same Conclusion:

In climates with harsh Winter, Importation of leafed out fig trees in Early Summer,,from ideal climate where  acaria fici lives should be avoided,as ,it  has the potential to result in spreading to the other trees in the orchard if one has an orchard.
No infestation can occur if dormant trees are imported after leaf fall,or dormant cuttings are rooted.
The above conclusion is true even if diseased dormant trees or cuttings are imported if they do not have leaves!.
They will grow into diseased trees but will not affect the rest of the Orchard.
This is what the conclusion of all this discussion ended up to be,so we should take it in account and register it as such.
Thanks again Brent.

Thanks H2, I have done my best to make sense of some long, boring, and dry research papers on the subject because I started with infected trees from UC Davis. I was worried that my Marseilles Blk vs, Gino's, Sal's etc. would become infected and struggle through the winters here. I found that the only confirmed way of transmission was grafting and the fig mite, although other insects are questionable, as well as pruning tools but are not the primary causes at least. I have to believe you that it does not spread here naturally because all of the plants and cuttings you have sent to me are totally healthy. I have heard that it spreads in cold areas sometimes though and infested/infected cuttings or trees entering a collection in close quarters seems like the most likely culprit to me.

I take the added precaution of treating the buds of dormant cuttings that come from warmer and drier climates to be sure there are no mites, because it only takes a few to cause an infestation. They are found on the buds some times so I decided to be safe, there may be eggs as well. I just use a soap solution and rinse it off after a few minutes. Easy, and better safe than sorry.

Brent:I was always washing my cuttings,but i did not use clorox every time sometimes just dish detergent,so yes I have to do a better job in the future.
If the mites can lay eggs in the buds,then that is a sure way to infect the orchards,because they will be born young in the Spring and ready to feed ,in our Orchard,so I see how a lot of infestation can take place in  the 8 month of new Summer season.
They will die next Winter but by then the Damage is done.

Brent and Vasile, This is good stuff. I always wash my cuttings and when done put in a bleach solution for about 15 minutes. The reason for me was concerns of mold and thinking the bleach would kill the fmv. From what your telling us it also kills the mite. I like it. I have another question to ask. If the mite can not survive are winters here on east coast, what temps does it need to kill them? The reason I ask is if we know that, we could do a third thing to prevent the mite. Or would this kill the cuttings? There should be more of these such topics for learning. I prefer to see more of this, because to grow a better plant it helps to understand it. Thanks so much.


luke

Luke,
just so I am clear, you soak your cuttings for 15 minutes in a 10 % ?? bleach solution with no ill effects to the cuttings?
I was doing one minute in 10% solution.

John, That's what I do, sometimes the times differ. I do this when I'm starting all my cuttings. I scrub them with a brush and soapy water, then rinse off, then into bleach solution. I do so many and place on paper towels till there dry. Once dry I bag them up with damp pro mix and put in container and wait for the roots to show up. I'm sure others do it differently, but this works for me. The bags you can order thru Uline. If you do a search, I think someone found them cheaper. I need to find it myself, so if you find it let me know.


luke

Guys you know, we as lovers of fig trees don't have to order cuttings from UC Davis.  Trees infected with FMV at UC Davis and throughout Callie grow very well.  Walking through the orchard at UC Davis you would not know certain trees have the virus.  UC Davis doesn't exist just to send you and me cuttings.  They are only interested in figs for genetics.  Every 3 years, they give their trees pure nitrogen.  I'm sure the nitrogen helps their trees but it's not clear to me why they do this.  The world of figs is very interesting.  For those with a passion for figs, I recommend keeping a lot of notes on each variety of your figs and share your results.  This way, we all will learn together.  Thanks.

wouldn't pruners and shovels carry the FMV between trees? if you prune a diseased tree and then a healthy tree with the same shears without sterilzing them in bleach?

I know many orchid growers often destroy a nice plant if it is infected by a virus. 

It is a tough call. Today I saw many healthy fig trees in Astoria Queens NY. many different kinds. green, red, black. Not a single one with sign of FMV. Same in Brooklyn. In Milan where i was a week last month I saw many figs (some probably germinated from seed by old walls) and only one had spotting on the leaves (it could have been also some sort of fungus: it was a really tall tree like 4 / 5 stories but heavily shaded by buildings). The rooted cuttings they sell at the Manhattan Union sq farmers' market mostly showed some FMV, especially the Black Missions. They had BT,  BM and Celeste.
I have a HC i got from Lowes, the pot says "Berry Family of Nurseries" from Oklahoma and it looks healthy, all the leaves are solid green, no sign of FMV ( although i wonder if the nursery is reliable regarding variety ID)