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From Twigs to Figs in 120 Days: Rich's Propagation Method

I've been using a modified version of Rich's method that seems to be working well right now.  Here's what I've found so far:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerj
I have noticed that since sifting the perlite to remove the small particles the cups do not retain much moisture at all compared to before. The cups weigh half as much as the others. I noticed that if you put a cutting in the cup and fill with unsifted perlite from the bag and water it that all the fine particles/dust will settle on the bottom half of the cup which can result in the bottom of the cutting rotting. So I would either sift the perlite... or rinse it separately before putting in the cups. Rich must have a higher grade perlite than what I have available here :(


Quote:
Originally Posted by RichinNJ
Perlite is from Home Depot. I scoop it out of the bag, put it in a bucket, add water, mix, and put it in the cups. Thats it nothing else.


All perlite is definitely not created equal.  I went back and forth for quite a while after killing enough cuttings and decided that sifted perlite is better for the cutting.  Buy a piece of 1/8" hardware cloth from eBay and make a sifter.  Alternatively, Google 'Garden Sieve' or 'Gold Sieve' to find a sifter that's already made.

It sounds like Rich is rinsing his perlite (Please correct me if I'm wrong, Rich) in a bucket and all the dust and smaller particles are falling to the bottom.  I also use the perlite from HD and always had smaller particles jamming the bottom of the cups after a few waterings.  Now I sift.

You are correct, sifted perlite will not hold as much water as non-sifted; there is much less surface area.  I've found there are other factors that will also contribute such as heat and light.  If more moisture is what you desire than you have to water more (See Rich's directions) or add some peat to the perlite.  I use Rafael's (rafaelissimmo) 2/3 sifted perlite and 1/3 peat.  Still dialing it in a little but it's working out pretty good for me.  You have to play around and find what works best for you.

Other things I've found:

I'm using 1 heating mat split between the chamber and tray.  The probe from the thermostat was in a cup in the chamber.  The cuttings outside of the chamber cooked because it took longer for the cuttings in the chamber to come up to the set temperature.  Probe from the thermostat is now in a cup on the tray.  Probe is pushed down to about an inch above the bottom of the cup and everything is in balance.

I'm pretty sure that MG fertilizer kills cuttings, at least it seems that way here.  I wait until the cutting is growing in some soil before using now.

Canna Aqua Vega works.

Small moisture droplets on the side of the cup doesn't mean the cutting has enough water.  It's happened to me 3 times already where I saw the tiny droplets on the side of the cup and did not water.  The cutting died and when pouring the media out of the cup found it to be bone dry.  After killing more than my share of cuttings by overwatering I probably became a little gun shy.  I water by weight now.















Quote:
 I water by weight now.


I don't use Rich's method, but I did start using my scale last season when watering starts that are in that beginning fragile stage. I have to say I am a fan of the scale. When the cuttings look happy and are actively growing nice roots, write the weight on the cup. Over time the weight will go up, but it is a very easy and effective way of not killing or setting back sensitive young plants by over-watering. We went on vacation for a week last year, I had the neighbor lady across the street water my cuttings for me while I was gone. She knows nothing about this type of thing, but she did fine watering them by weight(with a spay bottle) and I came to thriving little plants instead of dead or suffering plants. If you have a good number of plants, weighing them all may not be practical however.

I don't doubt your method or results Rich, only my ability to duplicate it effectively. Haha

I don't have the exact setup, just as close as I can get with the materials I have on hand.  I do sift my perlite to some extent...found that a standard issue spaghetti colander works relatively well to remove the dust and smallest pieces.  As for the fertilizer...the first couple cuttings that I deemed worthy of moving out of the humidity chamber died quickly after watering with fertilizer included(its a liquid rooting forumula diluted to about 1/2 strength of what was directed).  After that, the next few I deemed ready to move up...I just watered them...no fertilizer.  They still croaked on me all the same. 

As for setting everything up...

About 1/3 of my cuttings were started in perlite, the other 2/3 were started in sphagnum, and moved to perlite once they rooted.  The cuttings started in perlite had all rooted at some point (when I dumped them all out yesterday to examine them...I'd seen no activity since I started them several weeks ago), but all roots were very very short, and brown/rotted on the end, like they crapped out immediately after forming.

Meanwhile, those started in sphagnum and moved to perlite did relatively well at first.  Many of them developed good strong root systems.  However, upon removing them from the humidity bin and watering them for the first time...it was like a death sentence, fertilizer or not.

I want to reiterate that I'm not trying to be critical...more just worried about my little cuttings and what I'm missing in this process.

brettjm,

How did you remove them from the humidity chamber?  They need to be very slowly acclimated to a drier air environment or the leaves dry out ( the roots are not yet able to support them with enough water I think ).  I found that out last year, my first year rooting figs.  Only after I started very slowly, over about 10 days, opening the lid a bit more every two days, did my cuttings survive.  I had one chamber for rooting, another for transitioning the successful rooted cuttings.  The worst situation was when I got leaves well before the roots - those were very hard to transition.

I love this thread,so many ways to rooting. I use many methods but a really easy method is sticking cutting directly in one gallon with pro-mix soil. I then cover the cutting with clear plastic bag and set in the shade or in the house. I will let them stay this way for around a month. I do air them out once in a while and make sure the soil is damp not wet. After i see nice foliage and after i checked for roots i will open bag up a little and set outside. After a few days i will remove bag and keep in shade to acclimate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brettjm
I don't doubt your method or results Rich, only my ability to duplicate it effectively. Haha

I don't have the exact setup, just as close as I can get with the materials I have on hand.  I do sift my perlite to some extent...found that a standard issue spaghetti colander works relatively well to remove the dust and smallest pieces.  As for the fertilizer...the first couple cuttings that I deemed worthy of moving out of the humidity chamber died quickly after watering with fertilizer included(its a liquid rooting forumula diluted to about 1/2 strength of what was directed).  After that, the next few I deemed ready to move up...I just watered them...no fertilizer.  They still croaked on me all the same. 

As for setting everything up...

About 1/3 of my cuttings were started in perlite, the other 2/3 were started in sphagnum, and moved to perlite once they rooted.  The cuttings started in perlite had all rooted at some point (when I dumped them all out yesterday to examine them...I'd seen no activity since I started them several weeks ago), but all roots were very very short, and brown/rotted on the end, like they crapped out immediately after forming.

Meanwhile, those started in sphagnum and moved to perlite did relatively well at first.  Many of them developed good strong root systems.  However, upon removing them from the humidity bin and watering them for the first time...it was like a death sentence, fertilizer or not.

I want to reiterate that I'm not trying to be critical...more just worried about my little cuttings and what I'm missing in this process.



I really cannot help here since there seems to have been several deviations from the directions.

My reccomendation is that you start over. Follow the direction exactly as is in the post.

Loosing cuttings is saddening. While I was developing this method I lost some beautiful VdB cuttings from Frozen Joe. Fortunately I was able to get one to grow and it was about 3 feet tall and thriving at the end of the summer.

Rich.

Very nice results.

I've been rooting my cuttings in sphagnum moss & then transferring them to a pre-wetted soil mix high in perlite. Been fairly successful with this but it has been a delicate process requiring some delicate balancing and finesse.

I like the straightforwardness and seeming simplicity of what you've outlined here. I have one main question though.

I've never used any hydroponic solutions so I don't know much at all about them. Do you have any theories on how the hydro solution might be conditioning the roots? I'm guessing this has to be a major factor in being able to get away with using so much water through the entire process. Granted, the perlite is the other major contributor since water runs right through it (generally speaking).

I'm asking this because when rooting cuttings with the method I've been using, over watering is the #1 cause of losing the cuttings. Obviously a soil mixture is going to retain more water and be more prone to cause problems if too much water is added. But even when I might get my plants to the point of transferring to some sort of soil mix, if I watered as much as you do at the same point, I'm pretty sure they'd croak (technical term there).

So I'm just positing that there is more going on here than just good draining perlite. I'm guessing that the hydro solution is more of a positive contributor here to the success than it may be getting credit for.

What do you think?

Oh, I must have missed this important point first read around - You water sparingly while they are in the humid chamber. Then water 2X a day once they are out on the trays - Got it.

It's taken a little time for my mind to warm up to it, but I'm starting to like it a bit more now ;) .

Bill, I interpreted the watering after the cuttings were removed from the humidity chamber as watering only one time a day.  One day with the hydroponic solution and then two days with just water, all with the turkey baster.  I hope Rich will chime in tomorrow and spell it out.  Time for bed.  Sleepy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saxonfig
Oh, I must have missed this important point first read around - You water sparingly while they are in the humid chamber. Then water 2X a day once they are out on the trays - Got it.

It's taken a little time for my mind to warm up to it, but I'm starting to like it a bit more now ;) .


Yes I water very little in the chamber. Since the lid is always on there the water stays in the chamber however like Danny does I water by weight. I'm able to feel how heavy the cups are and this how I know it's ready to water.

Using a scale is a great idea Danny and Calvin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtguy50
Bill, I interpreted the watering after the cuttings were removed from the humidity chamber as watering only one time a day.  One day with the hydroponic solution and then two days with just water, all with the turkey baster.  I hope Rich will chime in tomorrow and spell it out.  Time for bed.  Sleepy.


I used a baster last year so I could measure the water being put on the plants. This year I'm using a pump sprayer with a watering tip that holds1.5 gallons. I also have installed drains in my catch pans. I'm able to water the plants more quickly and I can " eyeball" the necessary amount of solution based on my experience from last year.

Our basement is 65-75f all day. We have steam heat pipes running all over the place down there and the plants are on the heat mat too.

Google "Dutch Bucket" hydroponics. They flood plants many times a day when using perlite or other media.

Rich, this is a Carini cutting received and started Nov 30th in the humidity chamber.  It is sprouting leaves nicely but no roots are showing on the outside or bottom of the cup.  Is this okay in your opinion, or should I be seeing roots by now?  Or, am I overthinking this and just leave it alone and let it grow.  A celeste is doing similar but nice yellow roots are showing at the bottom of the cup.   Thanks Rich.
Carini Fig.JPG


Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtguy50
Rich, this is a Carini cutting received and started Nov 30th in the humidity chamber.  It is sprouting leaves nicely but no roots are showing on the outside or bottom of the cup.  Is this okay in your opinion, or should I be seeing roots by now?  Or, am I overthinking this and just leave it alone and let it grow.  A celeste is doing similar but nice yellow roots are showing at the bottom of the cup.   Thanks Rich.
Carini Fig.JPG


It's been my experience that if you do not see roots those leaves will die quickly and take a long time to return.

Sometimes the leaves on cuttings in chamber will get discolored and misshapen but if you have bottom heat the roots will come. Without roots the leaves won't make it.

Thanks Rich.  That was what I suspected so thought you would be the person to ask.  Have a great weekend!

If for some reason someone left the cuttings too long in the humidity container, how would one go about hardening off the cuttings to bring them out of the container.
Thanks
Mike

Quote:
Originally Posted by fluffybunny
If for some reason someone left the cuttings too long in the humidity container, how would one go about hardening off the cuttings to bring them out of the container.
Thanks
Mike


Hi "fluffybunny" :)

I don't harden off cuttings much. If there are roots and leaves I take them out of the chamber and put them on an aluminum tray on the heat mat. If they don't droop or wilt within a couple hours then they are ok. If they do I put them back in the chamber for a day and try again. I typically do this on the weekends because I have the time to fuss over the things.

Rich, 
I remember you said you grew these indoors from Nov-April - so approx 6 months. 
I'm in NYC and we don't plant out until around beginning-mid May so it'll be around 5 months indoors for me... I'm a little worried about providing enough light to keep them healthy all that time. I will only have 4 bulbs of T8 32watt Daylight Deluxe on these. What type of bulb did you use?
Also, we set our heater thermostat to pretty low at night - 62 degrees. Is that too low for an ambient temperature when they are let out of their chambers? If so maybe I'll see what the basement temp is near the furnace.
Thanks!

Rich
Great thread
Lungi and other newbies,
Resist that urge to start your cuttings early. Wait a couple of months until it is closer to the time that you can bring them outside. If your plants do make it the transitions has to be more gradual,and it is a real hassle to keep them going inside
Been there, done that

Quote:
Originally Posted by luigiwu
Rich, 
Your last pictures with all the lush leaves, how long was that from the time of starting the cutting?
I'm in NYC and we don't plant out until around beginning-mid May. I will only have 4 bulbs of T8 32watt Daylight Deluxe on these. Will it be enough to keep them healthy a whole five months? 
We set our heater thermostat to pretty low at night - 62 degrees. Is that too low for an ambient temperature when they are let out of their chambers? If so maybe I'll see what the basement temp is near the furnace.
Thanks!



Post #99 pic was around 55 days I think.
I use a similar light. See my directions. I kept them under it until April. last year
I cant comment on temps since we have steam heat and the basement is in mid 70's during the day and cools down at night but not by much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklikestofish
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerj
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichinNJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerj
I use 100% perlite too Rich. I find its great for preventing over watering of the cutting. So you have obviously no issues with the roots being exposed to light?? they do fine obviously?? I have been wrapping my cups with tin foil as soon as I see roots hit the cup wall but if its not needed I might skip that.

Tyler
I monitor root grow daily and I have not seen any issues that I'm aware of caused by them being exposed to light.


Good off with the foil... it just causes the cups to tip over easier anyways lol...

Here are some cuttings I started Oct. 10th... 18 days ago (I did use liquid hormone on them though)
Tyler Greek rooting2.JPG
~how often and how much do you water these in this system ??thanks,~


2x a day I have been flooding them with Canna Aqua Vega.

Many grow shops carry it.
My figs grow like crazy all winter using it.

Rich, do you use water straight from the tap?
Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy2green
Rich, do you use water straight from the tap?
Thanks


I keep a couple gallon containers full of,water that have sat for a day or two before using it.

Happy New Year Rich!  Here is a pic of a celeste start in the humidity chamber since 11-28-14 that I would like your comment about.  They are starting to yellow.  I haven't used any hydroponics solution yet and curious if you thing this looks like lack of nutrients or something else.  Thanks for all your help in this thread.

celeste in chamber 15.JPG 


Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtguy50
Happy New Year Rich!  Here is a pic of a celeste start in the humidity chamber since 11-28-14 that I would like your comment about.  They are starting to yellow.  I haven't used any hydroponics solution yet and curious if you thing this looks like lack of nutrients or something else.  Thanks for all your help in this thread.

celeste in chamber 15.JPG 



There are no nutrients in perlite.

If that were mine I would have started feeding with Canna the same day I took it out of the chamber

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