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'Giant' cuttings

Emboldened by my success with supersize air-layers (ahem), I'm currently experimenting with cuttings that are also on the ambitious side of hubris. Ambitious in the sense that I'm putting 20-22" straight into pm, with about 6-8" above pm level.

Is the general consensus here that most (if not all) of the foliage should be removed? Leave just the smallest leaf + shoot, or no leaves at all? 
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Hi Costas,
unless top leaves are still folded and in process of opening up, partially cut the last leaf, leaving only 1-2 square inch surface... But from my experience, (and by no means I want to derail you from your experiment) unless you have the cutting covered to give the green house effect, they are doomed to fail...
All my bigger branches , which I didn't cover and put it directly in the pots to root, eventually dried and died. But the ones that I covered with see-through containers all survived and rooted very fast.

Large Cuttings Experiment.jpg  20140606_105132.jpg
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Hmm, thx Aaron. Most of my cuttings are indeed covered in this fashion, and the remainder are semi-covered. Will post pics later so you can see what I mean. Most of the leaves are almost fully grown & open, so I've removed the lot except for the smallest, which can't be much more than 2" sq. anyway.

So basically, looks like I'm doing the right thing, but I won't be too disappointed with a high failure rate. If 1 or 2 out of 6 or 7 take, I'll be more than happy. These are branches that are too small/thin to air-layer, but I need to get them out of the way so I can do the giant thing without taking the short-cut of pruning & throwing away. I'm far too greedy to do that.
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Originally Posted by Aaron4USA
But from my experience, (and by no means I want to derail you from your experiment) unless you have the cutting covered to give the green house effect,

they are doomed to fail...

All my bigger branches , which I didn't cover and put it directly in the pots to root, eventually dried and died.
But the ones that I covered with see-through containers all survived and rooted very fast.

Large Cuttings Experiment.jpg 


All the cuttings in this picture were doomed to die no matter what you did.

They are far too large for cuttings.
Common rookie mistake in the quest for instant fig trees.

Most of them would have been large even for airlayering.
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Originally Posted by Aaron4USA
20140606_105132.jpg


Just a head ups,
most people use containers that drain well for fig propagation,
not glass jars that don't drain.
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yeah they were too large. but I found out by trial and error that if they are covered they absorb moisture through the branch surface as well helping them to replenish moisture they lose as they root.
The cover is not glass, just plain plastic cookie jar. Works every time.
The bottom container has drainage holes, but never needs to drain , since I only water once as I insert the cutting in soil. Next time I water is when I up-pot it.
Here's how I do the regular size cuttings. haven't lost one yet.

20140520_135937.jpg 
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Well spotted hungryjack - 'fraid I wasn't paying too much attn to those pics. I agree, Aaron has far too much going on above sod level (sorry Aaron - nothing personal you understand).

I've taken the elementary precaution of putting the overwhelming bulk of the cutting 'underground' (roughly 80-85% of length). I've also tapered the scion base, taken strips off the bark, & applied rooting gel &/or powder on most of its below-ground length. If all that doesn't work, then I have no right to expect miracles. Still, here's hoping. 

As for being too big even for air layers, 'fraid I have to disagree with you on that score. You obviously have not seen my 'Air Layering - Greek Style' thread. My current project is a 7'+ tree/air layer.

If any boarders are interested in whether these cuttings make it, I'll update when I know the results.
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I root 2-3' long, 2-3" diameter cuttings all the time. I bury all but the top in #3 perlite like I do with all my other cuttings and it works fine.  Pictures were posted last year under the topic, Jon's bag method writ large.  While you could theoretically get an instant tree, my experience is that it doesn't happen that way.
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I do agree with the big size of the cuttings...I know the reason they failed. Nothing's wrong with experimenting. But I will keep pushing the envelope for size  and I truly believe    that I will achieve bigger size cuttings to root as long as they are covered.
My tallest cutting so far is 20+ inches and it's up-potted and leafing.
Eventually I want to root Whips as instant trees.
I think it's possible.

I never use growth or rooting hormones. I am against using it for eatable plants.

This is today same cutting that is above (covered and rooted)

20140701_123042.jpg 

P.S.
Costas, those three are Cyprus figs;)
They , also, were rooted same way as above one.
I wanted you to see..
.20140701_123211.jpg

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Originally Posted by Aaron4USA
yeah they were too large. but I found out by trial and error that if they are covered they absorb moisture through the branch surface as well helping them to replenish moisture they lose as they root. 


What is the point of starting a cutting that is 90% branch and 10% roots
even if you are successful at propagating such a large cutting ?
Does not make a good start for a tree's future life.

You want it the opposite way,
90% root mass and 10% above the ground in a trees early life.

Doing it your way might yield you a couple extra figs the first
year or two, but you pay the price going forward for decades,
as a tree propagated in this fashion will never live up to its potential,
as it future growth was compromised and retarded  in how it was raised.
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Originally Posted by loquat1


As for being too big even for air layers, 'fraid I have to disagree with you on that score. You obviously have not seen my 'Air Layering - Greek Style' thread. My current project is a 7'+ tree/air layer.
.


Not doubting it can be done,
commenting on what is the point,
as its a poor choice when it comes to propagating tree stock.

You can  take the tomato plant that comes in the 6 pack container
and plant in the ground at the same soil level and you will harvest tomatoes.
Take that same plant, strip off all the lower leaves,
bury it so 2 inches of it are above the ground,
and you will yield far more than the first method.
Why wouldn't a person want to follow the same technique
for a plant (tree) that is going to produce for decades.

There is technique
and there is good cultural practices.

Sorry, did not see your thread,
7 foot airlayer with a small rootball would not be my first
choice for a tree I was going to plant on my property.
That 7 foot tree would get buried 5 foot deep,
so it could develop proper root system and not be stunted
by its small root ball from airlayering.
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fig tree growth habit in California or Florida are not same as in cooler states.
Starting bigger will push the maturing to it's limit, that's my opinion...so I am trying to see how big is achievable to root.
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Originally Posted by Aaron4USA
Eventually I want to root Whips as instant trees.
I think it's possible.


I have rooted several whips, as long as you get a few roots with them, no big problem. A friend just gave me a 2 ft whip today that is currently soaking in a bucket of superthrive so I can pot it tomorrow.

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Daniel, do you soak the cuttings in the solution just for one day?
I have been watering them with the solution of Vit B1 and Superthrive for their first watering.
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Hey hungryjack, you make some excellent points, but you also make some unfounded assumptions! Would you call 24-25 litres a small root ball? That's the gross capacity of the roots on these layers - 1 main and 3 subsidiary. If that makes no sense to you, check out posts #11, 13, 62 and 69 of this thread, which hopefully will make it clearer:

http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/air-layers-greek-style-6827365?trail=50 

My method also gives me the option of sinking the root ball quite deep down, as it creates a clear stretch of trunk that is branch-free and thus easily sunk. That will reduce the height of the new tree and make fruit-picking easier for a few years at least, quite apart from improving it stability and making the root ball even bigger in the long term.

Finally, this tree is not for me - I don't have the room coz I need my limited spaces for other trees like my Greek Yellow and Black. It's actually going to my daughter or my mother-in-law's care home.

As for the 'giant' cuttings, the principles you advocate above describe almost exactly what I've done. RCantor's experience also suggests he does this routinely with great success, so that encourages me to believe that my cuttings may well succeed. But just in case I didn't make myself clear, the 'giant' part refers to the amount of cutting I have put 'below ground', not above.
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Originally Posted by Aaron4USA
fig tree growth habit in California or Florida are not same as in cooler states.
.

while that might be true,
tree physiology and biology remain the same.

So good cultural practices are the same in NY, CA or FL when it comes to trees.

Just because its warmer in LA,
does not preclude from the need for a robust root system.
If anything, in a warm and long growing season such as yours,
even more important to get good root development,
as there will be a tendency for too much top growth with the extended season.

 

 
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Originally Posted by Aaron4USA
Daniel, do you soak the cuttings in the solution just for one day?
I have been watering them with the solution of Vit B1 and Superthrive for their first watering.


FYI  several laboratory test have show there is no measurable effect
on plant growth  or reducing transplant shock from the use of B1 or  Superthrive.

Save your money for more fig cuttings :-)
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I soak the shoots in superthrive and willow branches. Who knows which is the ticket, but I just use both since I can ;-)

Two years ago I started 6 suckers, all 6 grew. I gave them to friends.
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Originally Posted by loquat1
Hey hungryjack, you make some excellent points, but you also make some unfounded assumptions! Would you call 24-25 litres a small root ball? That's the gross capacity of the roots on these layers - 1 main and 3 subsidiary. If that makes no sense to you, check out posts #11, 13, 62 and 69 of this thread, which hopefully will make it clearer:

http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/air-layers-greek-style-6827365?trail=50 


Yes, you did a very good job with that air layer,
correct volume for the amount of top growth you are trying to capture.
As you must be aware, most do not go to the lengths you have to air layer properly
for a giant cutting, you certainly did it the right way !

Love the olive barrels for airlayering,
you're a true Greek !!!
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If you will use large cuttings, I would personally recommend putting them in ground and leaving either completely buried or at most a cm or two above soil.  I have put only several cuttings in ground here that were 3 feet long and they rooted well, took awhile to grow but if I try to dig a few feet away from them, all I hit is roots.  Big cuttings need big spaces to root in my opinion and if you look how pons starts his trees, he uses massive branches and buries them deeply.  
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Daniel , I've heard the Willow water is excellent for rooting, I think I'll add that too to my rooting method, can't hurt right? :)
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Chivas - You also virtually describe what I've done. I've left very little on top relative to what's going on underneath. Confirms my method was correct, based purely on intuition, common sense, general principles, experience, etc., rather than theoretical knowledge or advice. 

The only difference is that being in 'pots' (actually the tallest bins I could find), I deliberately packed several somewhat too closely together. For some of the longer cuttings, I extended the height of the bin still further by wrapping a plastic bottle around the neck of some of top growth, then filling with pm a la layering fashion. That reduces the amount of growth above the pm even further. I then enclosed the top in another plastic bottle to create the greenhouse effect favored by Aaron. I'll post some pics to make it clearer for those who wanna try it, but I'm offering no guarantees of success.

So I have the option of separating them (very carefully!) for distribution when I know they are viable, or else presenting them to their new owner as a growing fig bush, which I guess will be a lot easier. I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
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hungryjack - Glad you approve, and yes, I am aware that most figgers are much less ambitious when it comes to air layer size. That's why I called it Gk Style. If they tried layering this size with an inadequate root ball, they'll be disappointed. On that score, we are in full agreement.

Not just olive barrels either. I used a halloumi barrel for the main layer. Does that make me extra Greek?
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@ Aaron

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I never use growth or rooting hormones. I am against using it for eatable plants.


Interested to know your logic there Aaron. I assume you mean that these hormones end up in the fruit you eat? If I'm right, do you have any hard evidence for that belief?. Coz if you're right about that, I wouldn't use them either.

But as I understand it (based on basic botanical/biological principles), these substances are biodegradable, & have a limited half-life that ensures complete breakdown within a matter of months at the most, if not weeks. Bearing in mind these are cuttings, not air layers, I would suggest to you that the chances of ingesting any rooting hormone in any ripe figs they might yield 2-3 years later are pretty remote. After all, we're not talking Plutonium, DDT, Dioxin, PCB's or Agent Orange here, which persist in the environment for a generation or more before they degrade, if ever.  

Any other opinions out there on this topic please?  Am I barking up the wrong tree, or just barking mad? 

EDIT: Are you aware that plants produce their own hormones, naturally and without any human intervention, and you most likely ingest them whenever you consume anything that has grown in soil?

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Costas, I don't need to think hard when it comes to ANY hormones ( and that's strictly my preference)... do your own research ;)
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