How or where do you draw the line?

Commercial grower makes his living with his farm/ranch/etc.
Backyard grower has a job elsewhere or is retired, and already has a living.

Commercial grower is competitive and uses the best he can get to protect his crops.

Backyard grower doesn't care about much because his livelihood is not affected, so he goes organic or not, but what he does, affects seriously the commercial growers. 

And yep, there are a few organic commercial growers.

I am a backyard grower, but I am surrounded by non-organic, commercial growers 360 degrees!!  I feel a huge obligation to support these people in my pest control.  I do not wish to be responsible for allowing a pest (flying or in the ground) to stop their production.

If you are serious, you can find the pesticides, and I have done that. 

Just my take on an agricultural problem.

Suzi

I managed a community organic garden  of 417 garden plots for 10 years ( not my day job) , good luck trying to convince folks what organic gardening really meant!

Commercial / industrial agriculture is not a sustainable system to start with . They create a monoculture system which becomes a breeding ground for the particular insect or disease that prefers that crop . They then pour tons of toxins into the soil and onto the plants so they can eradicate all bugs and weeds . This ends up killing all the microorganisms in the soil and polluting the water table , not to mention the food they are growing . Now with the dead soil they need to start fertilizing with other chemicals which are highly oil dependent in their production causing greenhouse gases .
Honey bees pollinate about 40% of our food crops and their numbers have been dropping drastically over the last decade , infact in some areas of China fruit trees need to be hand pollinated because there are no bees left . This phenomenon has been linked to pesticide use , especially a neurotoxin developed by the Bayer company .
You are living in that environment and and are concerned for them ? I understand they are your neighbors , but they are doing you far more harm than you are doing them .

John

Suzi,

On the flip side. . . 

I have a California Nursery License. So I have to join the Farm Bureau (\that is $$) in order to join the San Diego Irrigated Lands District, to satisfy the EPA Water Quality requirements. That is $$. I have to go to class every year, for all of this. That is $$. I have to have a Pesticide Registration Number, and all the paperwork that goes with it. I supposed to keep everything on my property, including the rain.

My residential neighbors, by contrast can do anything they want. Maybe not legally, but they can do it and no one checks on them, they pay no fees, spend no time, attend no class, entertain no government employees, are never checked on. They can let their water run anywhere, use as much pesticide as they want, etc. etc.

Trust me, if you have a pest problem, your commercial neighbors will find it for you. They are being watched, monitored, trapped and whatever else can be done to them, 24/7/365.


Additionally, I am importing some fig cuttings from Europe (don't ask). For the privilege I have...

Had to modify my import license (more than a few phone calls), and entertain the County Ag inspector and the USDA Ag inspector, to verify my quarantine facilities.

Spent considerable time reviewing all of the import requirements (they change every year).

It cost me $30 to ship the permits and required USDA address labels to the shipper in Europe.

2 trips to the bank to wire the payment for the cuttings.

Dozens and dozens of e-mails setting this whole project up.

$360 UPS to ship the cuttings here in a timely fashion.

Quite a bit of $$ for the actual cuttings.

I still have to make the trip to the USDA Plant inspection station to pick them up. At least I have done this once before, so I won't have quite the run-around there, as last time (about 3-1/2 hours)

The process so far has taken about 6 weeks.

If all goes well, they will cease to be the property of the USDA and be mine in the summer of 2015. Yes 2015.

Oh, yes, they finally shipped today and will hopefully be here for the weekend.

Every wonder why no one bothers to do it legally?

Wow!  I disagree!  I buy groceries from Vons, Stater Bros, Ralphs AKA Kroger, and the people that sell to them are my neighbors.  They fight a war against pests, and no way will I encourage the encroachment of pests that will diminish our food supply.

What John said.
Home gardeners can have a detrimental impact, but it is by doing the wrong thing, as opposed to doing nothing, or what is considered the right thing to do. For example, here: growing potatoes that have lateblight, infecting your tomatoes, then driving the sick plants across the state to the AG research facility. They should have called and they would have been visited and helped.

My post went between Jon's and I am on the side of commercial!  I'm not that big, but I truly believe in our country and the produce our farmers provide, and there is no way I will grow or encourage anything that will not stop the insects, predators, or whatever you wish.  If you want to be organic, then do so, but realize your responsibility for feeding our nation.

Suz

Suzi,

My guess is whatever they are doing to control their pest issues is probably controlling pests on at least half your property.

My perspective is growing on land which was heavily used to grow corn.  I seldom see any rotation on the land that is still being used for corn all around me.  Last year my five year old MBVS put on a grand total of less than 4' of growth on 4 trunks.  This is a variety others have referred to as a vigorous grower.  My other trees don't fair much better.  I have no resistance to cold.  Trees which survive winters in much colder climates freeze to the ground in zone 8B.  I have three Asian pear trees which I planted two years ago.  In the time they've been in the ground, their total growth can be measured in INCHES.  I can go on and on. The condition of my land is directly related to their practices (or lack there of). 

I have long contended the food we buy is too cheap.  This is the result.  I agree with John, their practices has more of an impact on your operations than your operations has on theirs.

Suzi ,

You believe in your country ?
Is this about patriotism ? Nobody has said that my facts are false . The problem is the system created by the big agro corporations which have even patented life itself (gmo) . Supposedly for the good of us all .
I live in Toronto , and we have been pesticide free for the last few years . The bee colonies in the city are actually healthier than those in the country if you can believe it . What do you think those same chemicals are doing to you ?
If we are to avoid poisoning ourselves and our planet , we must find another way .

John

Jon, You proved my point.  We need to respect the commercial farmers and not encourage pests that they try so hard to eliminate by using not proven organic methods.
Suz

The Environmental Protection Agency has refused a petition that aimed to ban the sale of a powerful pesticide linked with cancer — and while already available, a surge in sales is expected as scientists ready a new GMO crop resistant to the chemical.

Not only has the EPA rejected a petition that sought to prohibit the domestic sale of the dangerous 2,4-D pesticide — a key ingredient in Agent Orange — but the main manufacturer of the chemical predicts that sales will skyrocket in the coming months. The reason, it would seem, is that Dow Chemicals is awaiting federal approval of a genetically engineered crop they’ve created that will be resistant to 2,4-D.

Ah that fresh country air !

johnparav, you named no names.  Was that chemical Imocloprid?  Merit?  What?

Suzi

Here is an article that explains it all .

http://earthfirstnews.wordpress.com/2012/02/26/dow-and-monsanto-set-to-team-up-to-reintroduce-agent-orange-pesticide-in-the-midwest/

There are many more articles out there , just google " agent orange corn "

John

Just read it.  It names no names.  Not one chemical was named.  They probably fear a lawsuit.
You know where I stand strong!
Suzi

There was a case in Canada where Monsanto sued a farmer , after he found their gmo canola growing on his property which had blown over from a neighboring farm . Instead of him sueing for contamination of his seed stock which took 30 years for him to develop .
Monsanto won , and now there is no certification possible for organic canola in the Canadian prairies .
So they bully people into silence and will sue at the drop of a hat to shut people up . Is this the company you trust with your food supply ?
Actually the main chemical is identified in the article ( 2,4-D) .

John

John, if I was going to buy a pesticide, what would that 2,4-D be named?  Imacloprid?  Bleach? Peroxide? Merit, DW-40?  See, most of us are just not chemists, so 2,4-D means absolutely nothing.  I'm willing to learn.  Which pesticide is it?

I can't walk into home depot and ask for 2,4-D.  They would give me the same look I'm looking at you with.

Suzi

Reality Anyone ?

Question for everybody;

What percentage of US Farmland is used
to produce Vegetables and Fruit ?














TWO PERCENT   2 %

Suzi ,
Another way to think about how you can assist your farming neighbors is to use your property, to the extent possible, as more of an oasis area for beneficial insects. Not to use the same pesticides they do necessarily , but to provide an area from which beneficial insects can repopulate the farmland. Most conventional farmers no longer use a spray only on a schedule strategy , since that has proven less effective and more expensive in the long run ,but often incorporate set aside areas for beneficial insects as part of a whole farm planning approach. The more areas close to the farms from which beneficial insects can move back into the crops the fewer sprays needed and more money is saved.
The advancement in an IPM approach has been substantial in the last 10 years. Conventional and organic professional growers are becoming more sophisticated all the time in taking a more multifaceted look at insect control.

The facts speak for themselves Suzi .
Either you want to see them or you don't .
All you have to do is read James's post above to see what industrial agriculture does to the soil and things you try to grow in it naturally .

All I know is the fruit and veg I grow will be toxin free .
Yours will be no better than what is offered in your local supermarket .

John

Are you saying you never shop in the supermarket?  I do, and i have no fear!

Suzi

Well if you eat enough of the conventionally grown food you might become superhuman , just like some of the super weeds that have become immune to most pesticides and require the use of agent orange type herbicides .
Me , I'll stick to organic and homegrown when possible .

John

WillsC

Are you saying there are no super weeds ? Look it up .
The superhuman comment was a joke , but I didn't think it needed explaining .

John

i have simple rules. anything that will harm bees and birds can't be good for me or my family. no insecticides, no anti-fungal spray, no rooting hormones, and nothing that might make me sick.. tho i do use MG fertilizers. so.. for bees, hornet, and birds, i think 12 gauge shotgun shell will do good. might be a little overkill.. but heck, anything worth doing deserves the best :)))