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Encanto Farms Nursery > Topics > Is Zingarella/Gypsy the same as Sal's Corleone?
 
 


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leon_edmond

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Posted Reply with quote  #1 
Recently received Zingarella/Gypsy from a very generous forum member. Has anyone had any experience with this fig and can you tell me if it is the same variety as Sal's Corleone, Aldo's Fig, Black Weeping, etc. etc.? Thank you.
WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #2 
No not the same not even close.  No stripes on Zing, no splitting and tastes much better in my opinion.  
leon_edmond

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Posted Reply with quote  #3 
Thank you WillsC. Do you have any photos of yours?
Is it a productive variety? What size do these figs attain? Thank you.
WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #4 
Leon,

I just got the zing cuttings from Rafed this winter.  It grew great and hit 5' this summer and has quite a few figs on it.  The size was average but you know young plants.

Zing 1.JPG 

Zing 2.JPG 


This picture was taken July 7th.

Zing.jpg 


leon_edmond

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Posted Reply with quote  #5 
Thank you. Nice photos. You're right, it looks like a different variety than those I listed. Even the leaves appear different. Is that a quarter in the photo or a nickle?
WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #6 
It's a nickle 
paully22

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Posted Reply with quote  #7 
Not the same. Gypsy is excellent, better than SC. Main crop is productive. I am not able to say the same for breba crop productivity. I would keep tree protected next season to get a good crop of brebas. The main crop is late and because the brebas are so good tasting, its worth keeping it. Note, SC ripens some main crop here not Gypsy(so far). My tree is over 5 yrs old.
Rewton

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Posted Reply with quote  #8 
Wills, I hate to start up another discussion about fig leaf shape being characteristic for a given variety but my Zingarella/Gypsy leaves look different than yours.  I'll try to get them posted tonight or tomorrow.  Mine do somewhat resemble the SalsC leaf shape with three lobe leaves dominating and some having minor 4th and 5th lobes as well (this is from memory).  Yours seem to have longer more narrow fingers with a more serrated edge.  Mine came from Gene Hosey who said he obtained it from Richard Watts.  I looked for some pics on the forum of Zingarella leaves and a short search gave me these three links:

http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1278140689&postcount=1

http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/show_single_post?pid=21238624&postcount=1

http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1269105428&postcount=22

Pics in the first two links show leaves that look very similar to mine.  The pic in the 3rd link looks like it could be a bit different (more serations?) but these are the first leaves from a rooted cuttings so it's hard to say.

Unfortunately, I haven't had a fig ripen off of mine yet though it is loaded with green figs right a the cusp of swelling.  I'll post pics of the fruit when it does ripen.  I wonder if there is more than one variant of Zingarella/Gypsy or possibly mine is not true to type?  If anyone else has a mature Zingarella I would be curious to see its leaves.
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Steve MD zone 7a
greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #9 
Steve,
Same here. My leaves are like in the first 2 links you posted. but not like WillsC's.
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WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #10 
Steve,

Have no problem with you bringing it up.  People that get upset about people questioning varieties usually do so because they think with their wallets not their heads. 

I will take more recent pics of the Zing and I will ask Rafed where he got it.   Greenfig who was your source?
WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #11 
Steve,



Rafed said his came from a "reliable source" and mine matches his (just to show there was no cutting mix up)  he does not want the source mentioned on the forum but will PM you the name.   
greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillsC
Steve,

Have no problem with you bringing it up.  People that get upset about people questioning varieties usually do so because they think with their wallets not their heads. 

I will take more recent pics of the Zing and I will ask Rafed where he got it.   Greenfig who was your source?




WillsC, I got mine directly from R. Watts, I live not far from him.
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Herman2

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Posted Reply with quote  #13 
I do believe climate might have something to do with leaf and fruit shape.
In my opinion both type of leaves are different than Sal Corleone,so Zing is not Sal Corleone.
Mine has the three lobe leaves,as predominant.
hllyhll

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Posted Reply with quote  #14 
When accounting for the fact that my Zingarella is planted in partial shade and many states north of Florida, its leaves look similar to Wills' Zingarella:
2014-09-08 04.02.54 - Copy.jpg 
The source for my Zingarella is Vinnie Johns.
Compare my typical Zingarella-in-semi-shade leaf above to the bottom right semi-shaded leaf of Wills' tree. Even the lobes within the lobes are virtually identical.
However, look all the way to the left on Wills' Zingarella at the slow-growing leaf that looks somewhat more typical of a Sal's Corleone.
Wills' Zingarella.png 



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Tony WV 6b
hllyhll

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Posted Reply with quote  #15 
The Zingarella leaf in my post above was located about halfway down the tree and photographed a month ago. The Zingarella leaves below were photographed today. Below, the top photos show the uppermost leaves that get the most direct sunshine, while the bottom photos show the most shaded leaves. Obviously here, less sunshine correlates with thicker lobes and fewer lobes:
IMG_7664.JPG 
IMG_7657.JPG 
IMG_7665.JPG 
IMG_7668.JPG
   IMG_7666.JPG 

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Rewton

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Posted Reply with quote  #16 
Here's the leaves from my Zingarella/Gypsy and they are pretty much as I had remembered.  Most are 3 lobe but some have two additional minor lobes.  Overall, they are quite different from the ones that Tony and Wills show.  When I do get fruit to ripen (might be next year) I will post it here.  Edit: I looked at the plant again, and these pics.  Like Tony I also find that the leaves that get the most sun exposure tend to have 5 lobes altogether and the ones that are more shaded tend to only have 3 lobes.

Attached Images
jpeg DSCN2333.jpg (48.39 KB, 27 views)
jpeg DSCN2334.jpg (41.44 KB, 26 views)
jpeg DSCN2335.jpg (39.74 KB, 25 views)
jpeg DSCN2337.jpg (54.20 KB, 24 views)
jpeg DSCN2338.jpg (39.77 KB, 24 views)


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Steve MD zone 7a
greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #17 
That is interesting...
Leon, can you post a photo of your newly acquired plant please?
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Rewton

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Posted Reply with quote  #18 
Leon's new plant is an airlayer from my plant.  I would be interested to get a better look at the leaves from Herman's Zingarella and from others who have had this variety for a while.  Oh, I'd like to see the leaves on yours too, Greenfig, since yours came directly from Richard Watts.
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Steve MD zone 7a
WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #19 
Paully's  plant came from Watts as well.  It seems there are two versions the Watts version and the version that came from a "well known source" that I was asked not to mention on the forum.


Tony who was your source?
HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #20 
Mine is also from Vinnie.  I don't have any photos and it's dark outside but mine looks like Steve's, etc.

For the record, I've never got upset when someone said my leaves looked different.
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Rewton

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Posted Reply with quote  #21 
With respect to the relationship between Zingarella and SalsC I found this note on Gene Hosey's East Coast Figs web-page; this web-page has been taken down because he is no longer growing figs.  I assume VS is Herman2, maybe he can confirm.  So, yes, it sounds like there is a lot of similarity to SalsC but they are not identical.

"VS, a fig enthusiast of NJ, reports that this is an excellent variety for the Mid-Atlantic region -- an exceptionally good tasting fig that does not split after heavy rains. He compares it to Sal's Corleone, but writes that Z. is the superior fig for its resistance to splitting and better skin color."
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Steve MD zone 7a
Rewton

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Posted Reply with quote  #22 
Wills, did you see pics of Paul's Zingarella from R. Watts?  Are the leaves different from the R. Watt's trees that have SalsC type of leaves?
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Steve MD zone 7a
WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #23 
Steve,

No.......Paul is having computer issues and was on his wife's machine.  His computer should be fixed today and he said he would post pics.  


The one I have is the best fig I have tasted so far...granted have only sampled 40 or so varieties but very impressed.  Have not had another one since the first couple as the coons seem to like them as well.   
greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rewton
Leon's new plant is an airlayer from my plant.  I would be interested to get a better look at the leaves from Herman's Zingarella and from others who have had this variety for a while.  Oh, I'd like to see the leaves on yours too, Greenfig, since yours came directly from Richard Watts.


Steve,

Here is mine. I got the cuttings from R. Watts and they rooted nicely. Not a long time ago the larger plant was almost destroyed by some animal but it is coming back.
This one is in a 2 gal pot.
The leaves on it and the larger tree it used to be are of an identical shape. It gets full sun every day.

Attached Images
jpeg zing.JPG (189.99 KB, 16 views)


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Rewton

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Posted Reply with quote  #25 
Greenfig - yes those leaves look like a pretty good match for mine.  So all indications so far is that there is a type of Zingarella distributed by Richard Watts that looks very much like SalsC but behaves a bit differently in terms of rain resistance and fruit color.  Then there is another type as exemplified by Wills with a different leaf shape and excellent taste.  Wills, if you have any extra cuttings this winter from yours I would be interested in comparing to mine.  Likewise, I would be happy to send you cuttings of mine.  Didn't know the Zingarella story would turn out to be so complex, lol!
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Steve MD zone 7a
greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #26 
Is it possible that one is the Zingarella and another is not?
Remember the Genovese Nero ugly story?

The taste quality alone (good) does not determine a "better" Zing, right?
Who knows its story? Where was it found?
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Rewton

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Posted Reply with quote  #27 
Greenfig, yes that is one possibility but there are others including what Herman2 suggested i.e it may be a variety whose leaf morphology is very sensitive to environment.  This seems unlikely to me but it is difficult to rule out.  I don't sell figs on ebay and don't really have a dog in this hunt but would like to avoid naming confusion.  Ideally, Richard Watts and the source that Wills got his from (and/or their sources?) would agree to how best to name them to avoid confusion.  In lieu of that, perhaps for now I will call mine "Zingarella-RW".  If anyone knows Richard Watts and has contact info for him please send me a PM - I'd like to get his opinion and more history on this variety.  Or alternatively if someone knows more please contribute to the thread.
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Steve MD zone 7a
greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #28 
Steve,
I will pm you his info.
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WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #29 
Steve,

Yes on the cuttings but do remind me......thanks for tracking this down with Mr. Watts.  It should be pointed out that Watts refers to his fig as Gypsy, correct?  Who decided that Gypsy and Zingerella were in fact the same fig?  
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Posted Reply with quote  #30 
Yeah, the Gypsy/Zingeralla double name is another question I don't have an answer to but I can ask RW.
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Steve MD zone 7a
james

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Posted Reply with quote  #31 
My notes say that zingarella from Italian translates to "little gypsy".  I did a Google translate and gypsy is zingaro.  Wikipedia indicates that La Zingarella (or gypsy girl) is a statue... whether it is a simple translation of name for the same fig or a coincidence only in name of two different figs, I do not know.
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Posted Reply with quote  #32 
and if we want a bit more confusion... in Fig Monograph, Hilgardia, Condit identifies "Zigarella" (no "n") as a synonym for Panachee (his spelling)
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paully22

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Posted Reply with quote  #33 
Productivity



LEAF






pre-dominant Leaf Shape
greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #34 
Thanks, Paully,

The leaves look like mine, Steve's and Herman's. I hope Steve will tell us what he found out from R. Watts.
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HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #35 
And mine.  I might still plant mine in the ground this year.  Today I had a crew of 5 guys help with chestnut harvest.  Their Monday-Saturday job is working for Valley Crest Nursery, a huge ornamental landscape firm (location not far from me employes about 100) and they could help me get three more rows planted in my fig orchard pretty quickly (another 138 trees with t-posts and wire, etc.).  They worked pretty fast today and liked working here.
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Rewton

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Posted Reply with quote  #36 
Paully, thanks for posting the pics.  Yes, your version of Zingarella looks like the Richard Watts version that many of us have.  It does seem to be very productive.  I sent RW an email to ask about the history etc of this variety and am waiting to hear back.
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Steve MD zone 7a
WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #37 
Steve,

How long ago did you write him?  It would not be the first time Watts renamed a fig.  Though I have heard from Paully that my sources source has had naming issues as well so who knows.  It is a mystery and sadly it may be one we won't be able to unravel.  
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Posted Reply with quote  #38 
I wrote him on Saturday.  I'll trying calling him tomorrow if I don't hear anything by then.  Fig naming is always an adventure!
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Steve MD zone 7a
WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #39 
Well making progress:)  My sources sources source is a gentleman in Switzerland named Gus who has an extensive collection of Italian figs.  I have sent an email to him with pictures of the two leaf styles.  
johnsvmf

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Posted Reply with quote  #40 
Paully22, if the ripe fruit looks like the attachment I think you have the Sicilian Black which is my personal favorite.

As for the question whether the Sals Corleone, Weeping, or Gypsy/Zingeralla is the same, my answer is no.  As several folks indicated, growing conditions to include sunlight can have a profound impact on many things to include leave shape, fruit size and color.  Other differences is that the Gypsy/Zingerella is far more reliable then the Sals C, has better flavor, is more prolific, sets fruit much earlier than the Sals C and the Zingerella fruit is a little smaller.  Lastly most of the Zingerella fruit has a gray skin coloration which I have never seen on the other suspected plants within this discussion.

I do not share the sources of my stock because of the potential backlash for that individual.  Suffice it to say my stock came from a reliable source that is a pillar in the fig community.

I hope this post helps!
Vinnie

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jpeg Sicilian_Black.JPG (342.49 KB, 48 views)


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Vincent M. Johns

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Posted Reply with quote  #41 
Wow, I ended up with 3 Sal's Corleone in my orchard only because of how hardy they grew.
Went from sticks/cuttings last winter and some produced figs this summer.
I can say with hands on experience the Sal's Corleone grew better than most of any of the cuttings I've started.

Might not be worth a hoot, but you got it.

Doug
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Posted Reply with quote  #42 
SCfigFanatic sorry if I appear to be negative on the Sals C, that is not my intent.  I just prefer the Gypsy/Zingerella given my personal experience.  By the way once the Zingerella is established it grows like a weed.
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Vincent M. Johns
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Posted Reply with quote  #43 
Not offended.
Sal's C has been a excellent grower for me.
Just my results.

Doug
paully22

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Posted Reply with quote  #44 
@ Vinnie, As long as it is great tasting, that's all it counts for me. Certainly if it is the real variant, even better. I
suppose there are lots of confusion regarding names as many hobbyist just go by names like dark fig, yellow,
green etc.
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Posted Reply with quote  #45 
Here is my 2 cents.  I don't believe Sal's Corleone, Aldo's Fig, and Black Weeping are the same as Gypsy.  The fruit on my trees look and taste completely different.  HOWEVER.....I do honestly believe Sal's Corleone, Aldo's Fig, Black Weeping, and Martin's Unknown are the exact same fig. In my climate, I have them planted in the ground.  Neither of them are hardy at all.  These figs all ripen the exact same time.  They split like Brunswick when it rains and all are prolific.  All 4 figs are excellent if growing in a much dryer climate like we had in 09 and 10.
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Dennis
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Posted Reply with quote  #46 
How can that be?
I ate a Sal's C fig two weeks ago, all three Sal's C have figs on them.
And mine tasted very good....and I'm only 45 miles south..or so.
DSCF1486.JPG 

DSCF1490.JPG 

DSCF1494.JPG 

Here's my Sa'l C
These were cuttings last winter..

Doug
edit: I was waiting for my second Sal's C to finish ripening and it has split.
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Posted Reply with quote  #47 
I heard back from Richard Watts, as well as Gene Hosey.  Gene confirmed that his Zingarella came from Richard Watts and that he shared one with Herman2 to replace one that he got directly from RW.  Here is what Herman2 told Gene in an old email about the relationship between SalsC and Zingarella:

"Sal's Corleone is like the brother of Zingarella that did get some bad genes from one of the parents,as splitting very bad,and uglier skin color.  The Zingarella is an exceptionally good tasting fig,and also is completely immune to rain or splitting."

Hopefully Gene or Herman2 do no mind that I shared that passage - I thought it shed a bit more light on this topic of Zingarella vs. SalsC by someone who was growing both.  Zingarella was observed by him to be a superior fig.  SalsC is itself an excellent fig for a lot of growers so that is saying something.  So I think it is clear that Zingarella from RW and SalsC are not identical though they seem to share a lot of the same traits.

RW said he has indeed sent out his Zingarella to a lot of fig growers over the years.  He obtained it from Pat Shafer of Philo, CA in the mid 1990's.  RW speculates that Pat Shafer might have gotten it from UC Davis but isn't sure.  I had a quick look at the UC-Davis collection but didn't see it listed.  I suppose it could have been listed years ago though.  If anyone knows Pat Shafer then they can do a deeper investigation.

So basically we have (what appears to be) two different figs with the same name from different sources.  I don't really know of a practical way to verify which is the real one without tracing them back to Italy.  It seems that Wills has been able to trace his back to Switzerland at least!  I'm not sure how Vinnie's fig fits into this.  If anyone is growing a Zingarella that they got from Italy directly it would be interesting to see a post about that specimen.  In lieu of additional information, my proposal is to call the one from Richard Watts "Zingarella (RW)". 

Maybe some day when DNA sequencing is more routine and dirt cheap a committee of serious fig growers can establish a reference database of sequences for varieties that are known to be true to type.  Then all others whose identity is not know can be sequenced and compared to the database.  I make it sound simpler than what it would be but eventually it will be the way to go.
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Steve MD zone 7a
snaglpus

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Posted Reply with quote  #48 
Hey Steve, there is one major thing that most are forgetting.......

Where Mr Watts live, so does the wasp. All figs caprified in CA taste freaking amazing! Ha!

How bout those figs!!!!!
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Dennis
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greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #49 
Quote:
Originally Posted by snaglpus
Hey Steve, there is one major thing that most are forgetting....... Where Mr Watts live, so does the wasp. All figs caprified in CA taste freaking amazing! Ha! How bout those figs!!!!!


Yeap!
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Rewton

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Posted Reply with quote  #50 
Dennis, you are correct that we should keep the wasp in mind.  However, when I set out to get a Zingarella I was motivated by what Herman2 and others on the east coast wrote about it.  I'll definitely look forward to seeing how the RW type of Zingarella does for me.
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