But what happens when you propagate a cutting from the branch with the atypical leaves?  In the recent Genovese Nero thread Marcus posted photos showing trees with both leaf forms, propagated from the same tree.

Harvey,

Figs are genetically active plants......if the plant you are referring to did in fact put a limb out that had just fingered leaves and it was propagated and those resulting plants also had all fingered leaves the argument could be made that it is no longer a Genovese Nero.   

Sure, the argument could be made, but I'd question the validity of the argument without some distinct difference in the fruit or some DNA testing that showed there were significant differences.

I'm sure you've followed the Genovese Nero thread and also seen that others have bought leaves without any lobes and some leaves with three somewhat round lobes.  Then, Charles obtained cuttings from me and his leaves look different from mine, possibly due to environmental conditions.  It is very common for genes to be expressed differently in different environmental conditions.  This was something Malli, the USDA geneticist at Davis, spoke about when Jon, Sue, Marcey, and I visited there around 2008.

Harvey,

The difference in the leaves is way more than would be needed by most standards including those of our government for PVR protections for varietal distinction.  

I can see variability of leaf shape on the same plant, happens all the time but this is not that.  This is a complete and utter alteration of a plants growth habit.   The standard for Genovese is round mulberry shaped leaves.  If I was to buy a Genovese and it arrived with finger type leaves I would not be happy and would demand a refund.  I certainly would not sell a plant that showed a growth pattern so far from the accepted standard unless it was able to be proved for a fact the reason behind the change.

It is possible the plant Charles got from you is simply not a GN.  I have seen both "GN" versions  in person, side by side is a very hot and very very humid climate and the leaf shape on both was steady.   You have to admit it is possible that someone screwed up at some point on the chain that led to your plant.   Now if different growing conditions is the cause that should be easy to test.....send cuttings of your plant to someone in a different climate and see what happens.  If that is the cause it would be repeatable.   Just saying well it could be the climate and saying case closed is not a very good argument. 


Harvey please do not take this wrong or more harshly than it is intended but it is nagging at me so.......I have to wonder how much of the discussion and rationalization of this "change" has to do with monetary considerations.  


 

Hi,
If there is a standard - say "GN has a mulberry leaf " - then anything out of that standard is to be culled as for animal (dogs, bunnies ...) breeding .
You could still propagate the mutated version as "GN mutation - finger leaves" .
Up to you to prove that the fruit - because we eat the fruits and not the leaves on fig-trees - are consistent with "GN mulberry leaf " .
You should as well prove that the mutated strain is consistent or better for fruit color, size, taste, quantity and quality , same eye, shape ...
Well, for a buyer sticking to the original strain is way more easy, especially for collectors.
I'll try to post later some pics ... Up to you to find the strains ... That will be fun :) .

Wills, you seem to be hijacking this thread and making an accusation despite you asking me not to take it "wrong".  I don't believe you have justification for making such accusations.

This thread is not just about Genovese Nero but about causes for changes in leaf shape.  I've provided other examples.

With Genovese Nero, specifically, others have obtained theirs from sources other than Rob, all deemed reliable.  In the case of Marcus, some of his plants started having lobed leaves.  In your opinion, that should be a different variety now, apparently.

Marcus is also the person, if I recall correctly, that has had some Nero 600m with mulberry shaped leaves (both forms on the same tree and on separate trees).  In your opinion, the plants with mulberry leaves should now be a different variety as well, apparently.

I have discussed the situation with several people who have purchased plants from me and nobody has asked for a refund.  If they request a refund, I will give honor the request.

Rob has assured me that the cuttings came from the same tree he obtained from Rafed and has shown me a current picture of his tree.  Rob doesn't have large number so of trees so it seems unlikely he would get confused about which tree was which.  Rafed is bitter with Rob for various reasons (has given me different reasons at different times) so he now has doubts about the cuttings Rob sold though, less than a year ago, Rafed also said he was absolutely certain I had the real deal.  I am 100% certain I did not mix up cuttings.  Somehow, you have some keen insight that allows you to speak with absolute certainty on this matter that seems unclear or interesting to most.

You have made your point.  Unless you wish to add something to the actual topic of this thread, please refrain from posting further in this thread.  If you wish to discuss it with me further, just email me.

jdsfrance - dog breeds have well-defined standards.  We have none of that for any fig varieties.  See my comments above and please only post about the causes of leaf variability of figs in general without specific focus on Genovese Nero.  It is not up to you to determine what I must "prove". :)

Does this mean I need to get rid of my VdB? It doesn't seem to meet the "standard" for leaf shape.     

I have 2 Hardy Chicago from 2 sources, one has primarily 3 lobed leaves and the other has primarily 5 lobed leaves, with a few leaves on each resembling the other plant. I believe they are both Hardy Chicago. Leaves are not a static thing until the plant is mature, stable (no winter-kill, not a sucker) plant...even then it can vary from what I've seen.

Hi Harvey,
Here's a link to another couple of pictures of different style leaves on a single tree.
http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1274630559&postcount=65
That's an Aubique Petite, and each limb of the tree is consistent in producing leaves with the same number of lobes per leaf, but different limbs have different leaves.  I'm with Jon on this type of variation in leaf morphology:  it's about as close as you can get (same pot, same culture, same weather, same moment in time, similar growth rate on different limbs, same everything... it's the same single tree!   I don't know the cause of it.).   This kind of leaf variability seems to be inherently part of the nature of certain varieties.  Jon showed Raspberry Latte, others have shown VDB, I'm showing Aubique Petite, and there are probably others that exhibit this "kind" of leaf variability.

I do think there are other "kinds" of leaf variability too.  For example the kind with immature branches/trees making one kind of leaf (somewhat consistently), and then a different kind of leaf when the tree matures.  And other types too.

I suspect there are lots of different causes for these different kinds of leaf variability.  The one that I find most intriguing is the kind where a particular variety exhibits two different leaf styles, consistently by limb.  Regarding that kind of variability, I don't think it's a matter of different limbs having genetic mutations... rather it seems to be triggered by something else.  (I guess it's possible that there are genetic factors that predispose that tree to have a couple of different leaf patterns, and something else besides a mutation "triggers" or "activates" that for a particular limb).  The reason I think it's not that is:   I've taken cuttings of this tree, and rooted them.  The cutting from the "one-lobed limb" produced a new tree that makes both kinds of leaves.  The cutting from the "seven-lobed limb" also produced another tree that makes both kinds of leaves.  So I think it's not mutations causing it.  Similarly I doubt that it's a chimera (though it could be that, with highly granular packing of the two strains, but with some external variable acting as the trigger/activator).  Whatever it is, this sort of behavior is pretty intriguing.  And I do think this sort of leaf variability is somehow a different phenomenon from some of the other sorts of leaf variability behaviors we see.

Have fun sorting it out!

Mike   central NY state, zone 5a
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How about we keep it about figs?  Isn't Rafed free to speak for himself?  Personally, I'm hoping someone will comment about whether or not they think there are these different "kinds" of leaf morphology variabilities...

Wills, you have hijacked this thread by not discussing the causes of leaf changes but, instead, to lodge accusations against me.

I just replied to an email from Rafed he sent because of your call, Wills.  I am not going to post private communications from him online.  Rafed is 100% certain I was screwed by Rob now but that was not his position earlier this year.  In fact, less than a month ago he thought his Genovese Nero was wrong but now he's sure about what he has.

Yes, it does strike a nerve when some accuses me of promoting false information because of money.  What motives do you have for such an accusation.  I value my integrity more than you realize, apparently.

The money I make from fig trees is a very small part of my income (less than 5% for anything fig-related, Genovese Nero is tiny).  My opinions about things don't change with the direction of the wind.  I am not 100% certain what I have is Genovese Nero but neither am I certain about what anybody has, actually.  I am trying to research it further, possibly grow different plants from different sources for comparison.  I have also been looking into the possibility of DNA testing of different sources.  The money invested to do so would be to seek truth and a better understanding of things and probably can't be justified for financial reasons.  The DNA testing done by USDA Davis previously used old methods (SSRs) and a limited number of gene markers that did not have a good basis for being selected.  In early 2013 the internationa Genbank database had 360 gene sequences.  Today, because of research done by Japanese researchers looking into differences between common figs and caprifigs and because of research done by Israeli researchers into Brown Turkey (?!?!), there are over 17,000 gene sequences in the Genbank database.  A very good friend of mine who is a scientist working in genetics told me a few days ago that if DNA markers were established that a private firm would probably charge $20-$50 per sample for testing.  I imagine it might be higher because of economies of scale, etc.  I am in the process of having my own DNA tested at a cost of $99, but this is more extensive than what would be needed for plant identification purposes, I believe.

To get back on topic, here are just some ideals I have about leaf changes:
1. Mutation
2. Soil conditions, including fertility and pH
3. Weather/climate
4. FMV
5. Presence of insect pests
6. Aging process
7. Other?

Thanks, Mike.  Keep good care of that tree - if I can find a way to get accurate DNA testing done, I'd like to have test done on both types of limbs.

I am fascinated with these sorts of questions.  Not to justify my claim to have Genovese Nero.  I am 57 years old and still trying to learn new things.  I have even had crazy thoughts of going back to college.  I'm a dreamer, I guess.

Harvey,
I am fascinated by this subject and love the fact that you opened this thread.
Here's another view of to How to look at this entire point of the changes we see in Figs...

I've had this book for quite some time now and it's my second most valued book (after Holly Bible) of my entire library.
I hope you guys have read this, it's a very interesting and informative book about Human Blood Types and HOW it evolved and WHY.

 

Here's the part (1,2,3,4, blood types) that talks very briefly about the process of CHANGE in blood type during survival of Human Species.

 

Perhaps Fig plant needs those changes, as adjustments, in order to survive and thrive.

pssst Harey, I have a genuine GN, cuttings are only $500 a piece lol Sorry couldn't help myself. Seriously though, why not get new cuttings and see what happens?

How about them figs?!

Barry, back on the thread about Genovese Nero (this thread is supposed to be about leaf changes) I already said I'd like to get cuttings from another source to grow and compare. Someone has already told me they would provide cuttings this winter. Okay?

Wills, call you what you want, I won't play your game. You "fair question" was clearly an accusation. I already made it clear that mh bringing up Genovese Nero in this thread was only about it had changed leaves for others.

Yes, Rafed has recently said he suspects Rob lost his tree and has passed of something else as GN. In January he wrote otherwise.

No stockpiling going on here. I have three fairly large trees in the ground of what are supposedly Genovese Nero that will need a lot of pruning. After all of this, I will certainly make note of the controversy is if sell any of them. I have had leople write me to say they feel bad for me for the way I'vs been treated. Thanks, but I can handle it and am not "angry". But I sill respond to such accusations as I seee fit.

For what it's worth, I'm enjoying a lot of great figs!

See there is a problem communicating, because your "okay?" comment sounds like sarcasm to me when I lightheartedly made a suggestion to you.  I hope it wasn't, but either way we have to be clear in communications, are we taking a shot at someone, making a joke or a valid point and so on. Harvey I really don't care what you do with it, I just found the thread to be a bit overbearing and tried to redirect to an easy solution, grow a fresh start and compare...or not

Barry, no sarcasm, though maybe equivalent of a "wink".  I already had that covered and had mentioned it in what I considered the appropriate thread.  My patience has been duly tested in this thread so if I fail to clearly communicate my thoughts, please accept my apology.  Okay? ;)

well alright then Harvey