Leaf variability, causes?

scott_ga
1410308577

Back to the main subject, Harvey. I think other. The two rooted cuttings I'm showing above were rooted last year in nearly identical soil mixtures, with a lot of pelletized lime so both alkaline pH, in identical growing conditions, less than 3 feet apart for 1 /2 years. One has always had all 'juvenile' leaves while the other has always had all the longer finger-like leaves. They don't show any signs of changing yet. They are both off of a mature VdB that has limbs composed completely of each type of leaf and these limbs are fairly randomly located. I am guessing that the cutting with the juvenile type leaf came off of a juvenile leaf limb on the mother tree and the fingered leaf off of that type of limb. I will check next time.

Scott

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HarveyC
1410313341

Thanks, Scott.

On a lighter note, another possibility is the existence of Original Sin. Adam and Eve covered themselves with fig leaves or some such thing after eating the forbidden fruit. Maybe God chose to thwart their efforts of concealment and created lobed leaves?

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WillsC
1410314098

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Originally Posted by HarveyC
I will certainly make note of the controversy is if sell any of them.

Harvey,

Sorry you are so upset, it was not my intent. Far as I am concerned it was a fair question. I was trying to be gentle about it but you got very angry anyway. I assure you I am playing no game, simply trying to reduce the confusion on varieties and situations like this are exactly how they get started.

The fact you are still even considering selling material from these plants after all of the controversy pretty much proves my original assertion was correct.

I am glad you are enjoying your figs and for the record I hope your plant is proven to be a GN.

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HarveyC
1410314389

Wills, your logic is bewildering. My fig trees produce excellent fruits, some of the best I have this year. As I said, if I do sell anything from these trees I will disclose the controversial nature of their identity. Selling them does nothing to prove your assertion. If your assertion was accurate, I would make no such disclosure. You'd rather a tree producing excellent figs just be kept and never sold? That just seems odd.

[edit] And, again, I am not very angry. Frustrated and deeply disappointed in others is probably the most accurate description of my feelings.

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WillsC
1410316138

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Originally Posted by HarveyC
Wills, your logic is bewildering. My fig trees produce excellent fruits, some of the best I have this year. As I said, if I do sell anything from these trees I will disclose the controversial nature of their identity. Selling them does nothing to prove your assertion. If your assertion was accurate, I would make no such disclosure. You'd rather a tree producing excellent figs just be kept and never sold? That just seems odd.

[edit] And, again, I am not very angry. Frustrated and deeply disappointed in others is probably the most accurate description of my feelings.

Harvey,

I'm sorry you are angry at all......have never had a cross word with you and really wish it was not you in the middle of this. It is difficult to discuss issues when anger is involved or hurt feelings.

Here is my issue with this......you list it and as soon as you mention GN in the ad you know some of those that purchase it will then trade it or sell it as GN without the qualifier, just human nature as it ups it's value. If down the road it is proved it is not a GN what then? just how many of those GN nots are going to be passing hand to hand as a GN? Adding to the naming confusion. Why not wait, ID it then sell it? Or If you sell it do so as an unknown with great fruit and nowhere in the ad mention GN. The only reason to mention GN at all is to get a higher selling price and see we are right back to my original question.

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HarveyC
1410317613

Wills, there is no anger emotions on my mind. Period. I have lost a friend today because Rafed felt I was being very selective in the words I chose, etc. and he has for some time refused to answer questions I've asked of him. He has built up anger over many things, it seems. I mistakenly labeled Laradek BT from him as Laradek EBT, never knowing there was any difference, and he noticed it months ago and never said anything about it today. I asked him questions for clarification and he refused to answer. If someone wants to try to keep things as accurate as possible, open and honest communication is necessary. But that was not to be, apparently.

You seem convinced that what I have is not Genovese Nero but I have withheld judgment on that. I believe one of the biggest weaknesses in humans is when the fail to recognize that they don't really know what they believe they know to be fact. I try to keep an open mind and also trust that nearly all people are very honest. Some people thinks there are a lot of swindlers out there and I think that is a very small percentage of folks. Rafed is now certain that I was screwed by Rob. I believe it's fair to say that most of the trees being grown as Genovese Nero today came from Rob as he was the only person selling Genovese Nero prior to me and he sold a fair amount of cuttings in late 2012. That is already done and there is not going to be any undoing of that. I haven't said I will sell cuttings and I haven't said that I will. If I do sell cuttings and haven't made a firm determination, I will do the best that I can to make sure folks know what they are buying and ask that they label it accordingly. That is the best I can do. Why not wait? For how long? In the meantime, hundreds of cuttings go to the burn pile? Many people associate Genovese Nero with the photo Rob first posted here a couple of years ago. Is Genovese Nero even a name used in Italy? I asked a couple of growers in Italy and they never heard of it. Searches only show it being discussed here and at Adriano's site.

What about the other varieties mentioned earlier in this thread with atypical leaf shapes? Are you going to make an effort to address those as well?

I'm not holding my breath but also hoping that there just might be the chance for DNA testing to help clear this up, though I don't know that would satisfy some people either way.

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pitangadiego
1410318923

Harvey re: Hybrid 0023: leaves have been lightly lobed, and very consistent in my experience at WEO.

[FP804-01]

So you more "interesting" leaf seems to be out of the norm.

WillsC: Raspberry Latte was all deeply fingered, and then one branch switched to un- or single-lobed leaves half way through the season. Now branches change during the season, or switch back and forth from season to season. No observable pattern, so far. I also have a Vista tree that had only single lobed leaves for about 4 years before returning to "regular" lobed leaves. It was labeled as Vista OL (odd leaf) because I wasn't sure that I hadn't screwed up the label (not that I do that often) because of the persistence of the single lobed leaves for so long.

These are all pix of Citronella, all taken the same day from the same plant, with a very wide variety of shapes.

[FP554-08]

[FP554-09]

[FP554-10]

[FP554-11]

[FP554-12]

[FP554-13]

[FP554-14]

figgary: your VdB is doing the same thing my Vista OL did. Hang in there, it is a VdB.

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WillsC
1410320642

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Originally Posted by HarveyC
Wills, there is no anger emotions on my mind. Period. I have lost a friend today because Rafed felt I was being very selective in the words I chose, etc. and he has for some time refused to answer questions I've asked of him. He has built up anger over many things, it seems. I mistakenly labeled Laradek BT from him as Laradek EBT, never knowing there was any difference, and he noticed it months ago and never said anything about it today. I asked him questions for clarification and he refused to answer. If someone wants to try to keep things as accurate as possible, open and honest communication is necessary. But that was not to be, apparently.

You seem convinced that what I have is not Genovese Nero but I have withheld judgment on that. I believe one of the biggest weaknesses in humans is when the fail to recognize that they don't really know what they believe they know to be fact. I try to keep an open mind and also trust that nearly all people are very honest. Some people thinks there are a lot of swindlers out there and I think that is a very small percentage of folks. Rafed is now certain that I was screwed by Rob. I believe it's fair to say that most of the trees being grown as Genovese Nero today came from Rob as he was the only person selling Genovese Nero prior to me and he sold a fair amount of cuttings in late 2012. That is already done and there is not going to be any undoing of that. I haven't said I will sell cuttings and I haven't said that I will. If I do sell cuttings and haven't made a firm determination, I will do the best that I can to make sure folks know what they are buying and ask that they label it accordingly. That is the best I can do. Why not wait? For how long? In the meantime, hundreds of cuttings go to the burn pile? Many people associate Genovese Nero with the photo Rob first posted here a couple of years ago. Is Genovese Nero even a name used in Italy? I asked a couple of growers in Italy and they never heard of it. Searches only show it being discussed here and at Adriano's site.

What about the other varieties mentioned earlier in this thread with atypical leaf shapes? Are you going to make an effort to address those as well?

I'm not holding my breath but also hoping that there just might be the chance for DNA testing to help clear this up, though I don't know that would satisfy some people either way.

I know about the Rafed issue, I'm sorry. It is none of my business and staying out of it.

Harvey why would you say....

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Originally Posted by HarveyC
"You seem convinced that what I have is not Genovese Nero"

I have never said any such thing. What I have clearly stated is I have a question as MANY others do. Have you ever heard of Occams Razor?

Leaf variability is a known issue. But this is a complete change in all the leaves of the tree. I have looked at the real GN and a plant purchased from you side by side both growing happily and looking as much alike as a beagle and a dachshund. Like I said Occams razor. But it does not matter it is the question, the uncertainty that matters.

So lets say for the sake of argument that he did pull a fast one........you are saying that because the fake one is grown by a lot of people the fake one should be considered the real thing? Seriously? So If I send out 1000 copies of the Mona Lisa with a mustache that due to sheer numbers mine is now the real thing? GN has a proven lineage back to the source. That line back to source is important. Because you asked a couple of growers in Italy proves what? Who are these growers? How experienced are they? A very weak argument Harvey and why hearsay is not allowed in courts:)

Perhaps I could have or should have worded my question differently.......You are invested in your plants in money laid out to purchase and grow them and potential money to be realized from selling them. More importantly and valuable you have a great deal of time invested in growing the plants out which could all be wasted. You also have your reputation to consider as you have sold these plants already.....do you think that maybe just maybe that totality is influencing your opinion and judgement, adding some haze or cloud....and perhaps why you lashed out at my question? See like I said I don't have a horse in this race and because of that my optics might just be a bit better focused..........time will tell.

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WillsC
1410322453

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Originally Posted by pitangadiego

WillsC: Raspberry Latte was all deeply fingered, and then one branch switched to un- or single-lobed leaves half way through the season. Now branches change during the season, or switch back and forth from season to season. No observable pattern, so far.

Which you now know by observing it over time. If the plant Harvey has switches back to a normal leaf pattern then we will have evidence. We also though have others with a direct line back to the parent plant and the trees do not vary much at all. In this case what is wrong with waiting until we know before spreading 100 more of them around? If it is a true GN there is no harm done..if it isn't you save a lot of confusion. It seems quite simple to me but when you add $$ in to the mix things get more complicated.

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HarveyC
1410323976

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Originally Posted by WillsC

I have looked at the real GN and a plant purchased from you side by side both growing happily and looking as much alike as a beagle and a dachshund.

The fact that you say a "real one" and the one from me seems, to me, that you are convinced mine is not the "real one". I might be mistaken about your opinion as I can't read your mind and it seems that I'm not getting a clear answer on that.

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Originally Posted by WillsC
you are saying that because the fake one is grown by a lot of people the fake one should be considered the real thing? Seriously?

No, I never said that. But the risk of causing greater confusion among collectors is certainly less of an issue if most of the GN out there were not the real thing. Again, I'd mark them (maybe Genovese Nero OL???) and hope that would be sufficient.

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Originally Posted by WillsC
GN has a proven lineage back to the source. That line back to source is important. Because you asked a couple of growers in Italy proves what? Who are these growers? How experienced are they? A very weak argument Harvey and why hearsay is not allowed in courts:)

What do you know of the "proven lineage back to the source"? Adriano obtained cuttings or a tree from some local friend. Originally he provided cuttings from this tree. Later, he acquired his friend's much larger tree and has provided cuttings and suckers from that tree. I don't know if there is any difference from any of these, but I consider that a distinct possibility. I pretty much know where everyone in this forum (or past members of the forum) obtained their trees from through personal communications. Ideally, this would be a variety that was well documented in literature but it is not. So what is the standard that we compare to to determine the real thing? The growers in Italy I've communicated with have fairly large collections and attend fig festivals, etc. so their experiences are worthy of consideration, in my opinion. There is the possibility that this fig came from Genoa with no formal name and was just called Genovese Nero once it arrived in Canada and that would explain why searching for the name does not show any Italian sources in literature, etc.

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Originally Posted by WillsC
Perhaps I could have or should have worded my question differently.......You are invested in your plants in money laid out to purchase and grow them and potential money to be realized from selling them. More importantly and valuable you have a great deal of time invested in growing the plants out which could all be wasted. You also have your reputation to consider as you have sold these plants already.....do you think that maybe just maybe that totality is influencing your opinion and judgement, adding some haze or cloud....and perhaps why you lashed out at my question? See like I said I don't have a horse in this race and because of that my optics might just be a bit better focused..........time will tell.

No, I don't believe these factors are influencing me in any significant way, honestly.

I explained this to Rafed but he really didn't seem to care as he was already 100% certain about things. I had a very successful career as an auditor for a financial institution for about 25 years. I worked day in and day out reaching objective conclusions based on facts. Sometimes this resulted in may saying good things about some people I did not personally care for and other times I made harsh criticisms of people I personally liked a lot. I had a very good reputation with the institution's management as well as regulators. I was very thorough in my work and I continue to use these skills in various situations such as this today. I consider all possibilities, analyze facts and other evidence, consider the risks, and draw conclusions when I am able. I am very experienced at detaching emotions when analyzing such things although some very short term "knee jerk" reactions surely can cause trouble (these are usually verbal in nature, when my mouth can act faster than my brain).

Several of my Genovese Nero trees are aware of this discussion and two of them today reached out to me to say they felt bad for the allegations they've read here today. I don't just hand out refunds without a good reason but if someone wants a refund, they'll get it. I've already made it clear that the money involved is not very significant to me.

I don't believe any of this will convince you and others are weary of this discussion on the identification of Genovese Nero. I would like to know what factors may cause leaf changes so that I may factor these into my assessment of Genovese Nero as well as other varieties. I find it very fascinating to read of how Jon's Vista OL switched after many years.