Leaf variability, causes?

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HarveyC

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Posted 1409409701	Reply with quote #1

Recently there has been considerable discussion on the different leaf shapes from Genovese Nero grown by different people. It is my belief that all of the growers obtained trees from the same source, either directly or indirectly. I don't pay much attention to different leaf forms on trees out in the orchard but usually see differences in shaded areas, etc. The most obvious mutation (?) I've noticed is my Panache which has one branch that forms variegated leaves. This past year I acquired cuttings of Wuhan from one member here and Nero 600m from another member. I confirmed that all cuttings came from the same tree but leaf shapes on the resulting trees varied. I asked Marcus (71GTO) if I could share his photos of his mother Nero 600m and he agreed. See photos below. All photos are of the same tree. I'm curious if such leaf differences (EDIT: i.e., consistently different leaves on different branches) are the result of genetic mutations, expressions of FMV symptoms, or just other environmental factors. __________________ Harvey - Correia Farms Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14 http://www.figaholics.com https://www.facebook.com/Figaholics

pitangadiego

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Posted 1409411047	Reply with quote #2

Raspberry Latte leaves. Same tree, same soil, same fertilizer, same water, and weather (as close as it could ever get) because they are from the same tree. Don't know what the variable is. __________________ Encanto Farms Nursery http://encantofarms.com http://figs4fun.com http://webebananas.com "pitangadiego" everywhere

greenfig

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Posted 1409412148	Reply with quote #3

For my figs, it is the speed of growth. The very fast growers produce 1-3 lobed leaves and slow 3-5 lobed leaves. Accidentally, the fast guys are more exposed to the sun. One of my good examples is an Unk. Union Berry. I can post the photos later today. The fertilizer is the same. Some figs are displaying this behavior and some are more stable though. __________________ wish list: Violeta, Calderona. USDA z 10a, SoCal

pino

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Posts: 2,117

Posted 1409412989	Reply with quote #4

There seems to be genetic variations in plants. Some varieties are referred to as genetically unstable. A fig grower told me that he had dark fig and a cutting he grew from it mutated to a very nice green fig? I have seen many fig leaf shapes especially on my in ground trees. I figured it was because disease/insect attacks at different stages, or stressed for whatever reason at different stages, water availability, heat .... Maybe it is a combination of environment and genetics? __________________ Pino, zone 6, Niagara, JCJ Acres Wish; Peace on earth and more figs Italian 258, Galicia Negra, Luv, trade suggestions welcome.

figherder

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Posts: 237

Posted 1409414909	Reply with quote #5

The raspberry latte seems confused. Not sure if it wants to be a fig or a maple tree LOL. I can understand how the envornment can play a role in different growth patterns from the same plant. With veggies they say it takes 3 years for the plants to acclimate. Of course thats from seed. My best guess is that figs have these variations in their genes so they can adapt to different climates and weather patterns. Basically I agree with Pino.. In the beginning how many varieties of figs were there? 1? Are all of the different varieties just mutations of the first. Or did figs just spring up everywhere around the world with lots of different varieties and flavors? __________________ Jeff in zone 5b Wish list St rita,Vista,Sal's G,De la Reina, preto, Sport and pops purple red from Bellaclare, Planera Malta Black, Navid Unk Dark Greek,

Aaron4USA

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Posts: 2,969

Posted 1409416801	Reply with quote #6

Harvey, This has been a very entertaining issue for me for several months now. Here's what my observation on same 4 varieties that I have been experimenting with (each are from one whip giving 3 cuttings=12) So I have them in different exposures in the garden and I noticed: 1- Larger leaves under semi-shade area. Softer leaves under semi-shade area. Developed fine-velvety and soft surface. 2- Smaller leaves under full sun exposure. Rougher surface on the leaves. Much darker greens. 3- When FMV present, the leaf shape changed. Sometimes on same plant there are different shape leaves, the ones with FMV branch had narrow and longer fingers but the mother tree still has shorter fingers (this particular one I noticed on the Unknown that I had pulled out of Ivy bed from Glendale Courthouse). on another variety of Pasteliere, when there is FMV, the same leaf can have 2 parts, one with shriveled and shorter side to it. Another variety Unknown Italian, one of the cuttings produced VdB-like leaves where the other cuttings of same variety were rounded lobed and large leaves with NO FMV. So, maybe presence of FMV, sun exposure and Nutrients may play a major role on variations of leaves on each tree. One thing for sure... each tree has more that one type of Lobe divisions on leaves. That's the reason , when I catalogue my fig varieties I put all the leaves from that branch in one picture to provide all the different shapes of leaves that the tree can have.

ascpete

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Posts: 1,942

Posted 1409418750	Reply with quote #7

HarveyC, Yes, Viral infection, Culture, Temperature and Nutrient availability all have a direct effect on Fig leaf morphology. In my observations, faster growth usually results in increased sinus definition, while slower growth or emergence results in less definition, decreased lobes. . Colder weather and slower growth of Brown Turkey EL resulted in 3 lobed leaves while faster growth and warmer weather resulted in deeper sinuses and increased lobes, this was also typical of most container grown cultivars. There are a few cultivars, Bordeaux types, that seem to produce entire leaves on individual branches as part of those cultivars' leaf morphology. Similarly each cultivar will produce leaves within a specific range of shapes and when associated with the figs that are produced, it can be be used to help ID the variety.

greenfig

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Posted 1409420543	Reply with quote #8

Pete, That’s funny, what you said about the lobes is opposite to what I observed. __________________ wish list: Violeta, Calderona. USDA z 10a, SoCal

greenfig

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Posted 1409421316	Reply with quote #9

A similar question but in the case of White Oaks. Google for "white oak leaf shape variability viscosi” I just do not know how to paste the link to a pdf here. They refer to the genetics amplified by the environment. __________________ wish list: Violeta, Calderona. USDA z 10a, SoCal

Ampersand

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Posts: 728

Posted 1409427207	Reply with quote #10

Aaron - Out of what you listed only FMV should cause leaf shape changes, however FMV free plants will still have varying leaf shape. Light levels affect thickness on ALL plants, should not change leaf shape. The primary factor in these phenotypic changes is likely genetics. Pete - I'm with Igor, my observation is new rapid growth (especially suckers) seems the least defined with the fewest lobes. Not always, but that's the trend. I believe that mature, lignified wood results in leaves that heavily lobed and most typical of the variety. Close nodes and slower growth seem to result in these leaves as well. From my experience rapid growth, especially from suckers, has leaves that are lacking in lobes or have fewer lobes than typical. It is possible that suckers are immature wood so the leaves will be an immature form. Not a perfect explanation, but it would make sense that the plants genetically have a range of leaf shapes they can express given varying maturity and environmental factors. Has anyone noticed a difference in fruiting times for cuttings taken from the same plant with different leaf shapes?

dfoster25

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Posted 1409427515	Reply with quote #11

There is no cause. I believe it is what it is. Who said they all have to be the same? Some might chalk it up to juvenility. Sassafras does the same thing. __________________ Zone 6, SE MICHIGAN -14F 1-7-14 -23F 2-?-15 6F 1-18-16

dfoster25

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Posted 1409433482	Reply with quote #12

Sassafras Attached Images image.jpg (228.45 KB, 24 views) __________________ Zone 6, SE MICHIGAN -14F 1-7-14 -23F 2-?-15 6F 1-18-16

ascpete

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Posted 1409446009	Reply with quote #13

Greenfig, Kelby, Young suckers sometimes produce early juvenile leaves that are often less defined that older or mature leaves, that has been my observation. IMO fig leaf shapes for an individual cultivar can be placed into at least five groups, Emergent, Juvenile, Slow growing, Fast growing and Mature (from older wood) . Celeste juvenile leaves and older mature leaves on the same cultivar typical. . Unknown BryantDark leaves on several different rooted cuttings and the Mature leaves. . Celeste juvenile leaves. . Unknown TimLight leaves, different leaf shapes on same trunks. Attached Files 1-s2.0-S1002007109003013-main.pdf (762.20 KB, 10 views)

Aaron4USA

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Posted 1409461540	Reply with quote #14

Indeed very interesting subject. I'm thinking maybe every fig variety has the potential to adopt and change it's leaves...I've seen enough of similar phenomenon to lean towards that. We haven't even compared leaf count and age to different shapes , according to growth stages.... *Needs to be compared: Different variety branches with same growth age so we can see and compare leaf sequence of each... (Leaf#1 with Leaf #1) and (Leaf#2 with Leaf#2) etc... For example , I have seen (and I am sure that you have all...as well) new leaf that is a little round thang, the 2nd is a bit Oval then 3rd is a heart shaped and 4th...with 3 lobes then 5, 6, 7 with 5 lobes or still 3 lobes (just bigger in size)...these types of growth stage changes are a very regular thing for my garden...but what happens when FMV interferes...or Nutritional deficiency comes in or too much sun or not enough sun..things change, they normal growth stage changing pattern gets disturbed and nothing is regular anymore.

Ampersand

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Posted 1409474565	Reply with quote #15

Quote: Originally Posted by dfoster25 There is no cause. I believe it is what it is. Who said they all have to be the same? Some might chalk it up to juvenility. Sassafras does the same thing. Interesting idea. I looked up mulberry; wikipedia says they have juvenile and adult leaves. Being close relatives that may be more applicible. Now I want some sassafrass tea, thanks Dan!

kubota1

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Posted 1409493648	Reply with quote #16

My Raspberry Latte also looks like the one Jon posted. __________________ Art- Western Pa. 6a

Aaron4USA

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Posted 1409496210	Reply with quote #17

here's an example of how out of regular growth patterns a random branch can take a different path,(cause unknown to me yet...) notice the smaller branch in the lower middle, the leaves are of a totally different proportion but Lobe counts still match with the general pattern.

scott_ga

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Posted 1409582810	Reply with quote #18

Harvey you have struck a nerve. Recently, my wife wanted me to give a fig to a friend of hers and I pointed out two I started recently (not this spring, but the spring before--so 1 1/2 years old). She asked which would be best and I said it didn't matter, they were the same fig. She said they can't be, the leaves are completely different. However, these are both VdB, both taken from the same tree (different limbs). Same culture, location, sun, fertilizer, etc. Yet the leaves are all entirely different. The same holds true for the older fig they were taken from, some limbs have entirely one leaf shape, other limbs a different leaf shape. So I think something else is going on besides just juvenile leaves (which will tend to be more mulberry type sometimes. I think at times the cuttings repeat the leaf shape of the limb they were taken from, at least for a while. Vdb 1/2 year mulberry leaves VdB 1 1/2 yr. lobed leaves VdB mother plant limb on mother plant Figs from VdB __________________ Scott North Georgia Zone 7b

waynea

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Posted 1409588891	Reply with quote #19

You may have something Scott, check with growers that have divided a cutting and rooted both, see if the leaves are the same or different. Just a thought and worth getting feedback from other growers.

HarveyC

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Posted 1409589959	Reply with quote #20

Scott, thanks for sharing. What you have looks like the same situation as the Nero 600m above I posted photos of and what seems to have taken place with Wuhan (don't have photos of that to share). I bring this up as I'm wondering if this is what's behind the Genovese Nero confusion right now. __________________ Harvey - Correia Farms Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14 http://www.figaholics.com https://www.facebook.com/Figaholics

needaclone

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Posted 1409616201	Reply with quote #21

I remember reading on this forum a year or so ago someone claiming that leaves lower on a tree may be broader (to catch more sun) while leaves higher up on that tree may be more deeply lobed, both to let more light through to the lower leaves and to be more tolerant of the windier conditions they might be exposed to. Regarding the wind, the notion is that broad leaves higher up might catch more wind and be ripped apart, so instead they grow with lobes. (...on the other hand, this doesn't do much to explain why trees that only have broad, single lobed leaves, don't all end up with shredded leaves at the top...) There's definitely a lot going on here... Jim __________________ Clarksburg, NJ - Zone 6b Wishlist - A wise man recommended: Nero600M . Malta Black . Tacoma (Takoma) Violet . Gino's . Adriatic JH . Vista Mission . Florea . Atreano . ...also...RdB, Bethlehem Black, Negronne, Grise de St. Jean, Livano, Col de Dame Blanc/Gris/Noir, Vasilika Sika, Longue D'Aout, Italian 258, Pennsylvania 6-5000

ediblelandscapingsc

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Posted 1409617358	Reply with quote #22

This is the leaf shape of my Genovese Nero if it helps __________________ South Carolina zone 7b-8

HarveyC

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Posted 1409861362	Reply with quote #23

I have quite a few young potted trees which should big single-lobed leaves on the bottom and then multiple-lobed leaves higher up. Jon mentioned Raspberry Lattee having different leaf forms on the tree. Although the subject of this thread was meant to discuss causes of there being consistently different leaf forms on different branches (I edited original post to make this more clear), I decided to check out my Raspberry Latte tree. Interestingly, this seems to be the only tree that is opposite of the situation described in the first sentence of this post: the lower leaves have multiple, deeply lobed-leaves while the top has single lobes. __________________ Harvey - Correia Farms Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14 http://www.figaholics.com https://www.facebook.com/Figaholics

HarveyC

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Posted 1410158404	Reply with quote #24

A friend came by today and he noticed some leaves on my DFIC 0023 Palmata Hybrid didn't look right. Looking closer, most branches had leaves without lobes but some branches had leaves with lobes. This tree died to the ground this past winter. Seems to be my most cold-sensitive variety. __________________ Harvey - Correia Farms Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14 http://www.figaholics.com https://www.facebook.com/Figaholics

WillsC

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Posted 1410177929	Reply with quote #25

I can understand variable leaf shape on the same tree.......but if I had a Genovese Nero with 100% finger shaped leaves I would be wondering if I actually have a Genovese Nero. Mistakes do happen.......tags fall out. It is one reason I hardwire a tag to a container right from the start.

HarveyC

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Posted 1410183880	Reply with quote #26

But what happens when you propagate a cutting from the branch with the atypical leaves? In the recent Genovese Nero thread Marcus posted photos showing trees with both leaf forms, propagated from the same tree. __________________ Harvey - Correia Farms Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14 http://www.figaholics.com https://www.facebook.com/Figaholics

WillsC

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Posted 1410213103	Reply with quote #27

Harvey, Figs are genetically active plants......if the plant you are referring to did in fact put a limb out that had just fingered leaves and it was propagated and those resulting plants also had all fingered leaves the argument could be made that it is no longer a Genovese Nero.

HarveyC

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Posted 1410219799	Reply with quote #28

Sure, the argument could be made, but I'd question the validity of the argument without some distinct difference in the fruit or some DNA testing that showed there were significant differences. I'm sure you've followed the Genovese Nero thread and also seen that others have bought leaves without any lobes and some leaves with three somewhat round lobes. Then, Charles obtained cuttings from me and his leaves look different from mine, possibly due to environmental conditions. It is very common for genes to be expressed differently in different environmental conditions. This was something Malli, the USDA geneticist at Davis, spoke about when Jon, Sue, Marcey, and I visited there around 2008. __________________ Harvey - Correia Farms Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14 http://www.figaholics.com https://www.facebook.com/Figaholics

WillsC

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Posted 1410266542	Reply with quote #29

Harvey, The difference in the leaves is way more than would be needed by most standards including those of our government for PVR protections for varietal distinction. I can see variability of leaf shape on the same plant, happens all the time but this is not that. This is a complete and utter alteration of a plants growth habit. The standard for Genovese is round mulberry shaped leaves. If I was to buy a Genovese and it arrived with finger type leaves I would not be happy and would demand a refund. I certainly would not sell a plant that showed a growth pattern so far from the accepted standard unless it was able to be proved for a fact the reason behind the change. It is possible the plant Charles got from you is simply not a GN. I have seen both "GN" versions in person, side by side is a very hot and very very humid climate and the leaf shape on both was steady. You have to admit it is possible that someone screwed up at some point on the chain that led to your plant. Now if different growing conditions is the cause that should be easy to test.....send cuttings of your plant to someone in a different climate and see what happens. If that is the cause it would be repeatable. Just saying well it could be the climate and saying case closed is not a very good argument. Harvey please do not take this wrong or more harshly than it is intended but it is nagging at me so.......I have to wonder how much of the discussion and rationalization of this "change" has to do with monetary considerations.

jdsfrance

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Posted 1410271861	Reply with quote #30

Hi, If there is a standard - say "GN has a mulberry leaf " - then anything out of that standard is to be culled as for animal (dogs, bunnies ...) breeding . You could still propagate the mutated version as "GN mutation - finger leaves" . Up to you to prove that the fruit - because we eat the fruits and not the leaves on fig-trees - are consistent with "GN mulberry leaf " . You should as well prove that the mutated strain is consistent or better for fruit color, size, taste, quantity and quality , same eye, shape ... Well, for a buyer sticking to the original strain is way more easy, especially for collectors. I'll try to post later some pics ... Up to you to find the strains ... That will be fun :) . __________________ ------------------------ Climate from -25°C to + 35°C Only cold hardy figtrees can make it here

HarveyC

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Posted 1410271925	Reply with quote #31

Wills, you seem to be hijacking this thread and making an accusation despite you asking me not to take it "wrong". I don't believe you have justification for making such accusations. This thread is not just about Genovese Nero but about causes for changes in leaf shape. I've provided other examples. With Genovese Nero, specifically, others have obtained theirs from sources other than Rob, all deemed reliable. In the case of Marcus, some of his plants started having lobed leaves. In your opinion, that should be a different variety now, apparently. Marcus is also the person, if I recall correctly, that has had some Nero 600m with mulberry shaped leaves (both forms on the same tree and on separate trees). In your opinion, the plants with mulberry leaves should now be a different variety as well, apparently. I have discussed the situation with several people who have purchased plants from me and nobody has asked for a refund. If they request a refund, I will give honor the request. Rob has assured me that the cuttings came from the same tree he obtained from Rafed and has shown me a current picture of his tree. Rob doesn't have large number so of trees so it seems unlikely he would get confused about which tree was which. Rafed is bitter with Rob for various reasons (has given me different reasons at different times) so he now has doubts about the cuttings Rob sold though, less than a year ago, Rafed also said he was absolutely certain I had the real deal. I am 100% certain I did not mix up cuttings. Somehow, you have some keen insight that allows you to speak with absolute certainty on this matter that seems unclear or interesting to most. You have made your point. Unless you wish to add something to the actual topic of this thread, please refrain from posting further in this thread. If you wish to discuss it with me further, just email me. __________________ Harvey - Correia Farms Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14 http://www.figaholics.com https://www.facebook.com/Figaholics

HarveyC

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Posted 1410272341	Reply with quote #32

jdsfrance - dog breeds have well-defined standards. We have none of that for any fig varieties. See my comments above and please only post about the causes of leaf variability of figs in general without specific focus on Genovese Nero. It is not up to you to determine what I must "prove". :) __________________ Harvey - Correia Farms Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14 http://www.figaholics.com https://www.facebook.com/Figaholics

figgary

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Posted 1410277633	Reply with quote #33

Does this mean I need to get rid of my VdB? It doesn't seem to meet the "standard" for leaf shape. __________________ Gary in CA 9A Seeking: Bebera Branca*, Colonel Littman's Cross

Ampersand

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Posted 1410279006	Reply with quote #34

I have 2 Hardy Chicago from 2 sources, one has primarily 3 lobed leaves and the other has primarily 5 lobed leaves, with a few leaves on each resembling the other plant. I believe they are both Hardy Chicago. Leaves are not a static thing until the plant is mature, stable (no winter-kill, not a sucker) plant...even then it can vary from what I've seen.

WillsC

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Posted 1410279785	Reply with quote #35

Quote: Originally Posted by HarveyC Wills, you seem to be hijacking this thread and making an accusation How am I hijacking the thread Harvey? YOU brought up Genovese Nero in the very first sentence of the thread and GN is what I am talking about. I did not accuse you or anyone of anything...if I did please copy and paste it. What I actually said is the reason for the change in leaf pattern could be: 1. An honest mistake. 2. A genetic drift 3. climate related. Where in there did you get an accusation? What seems to have bothered you is my asking about the possible motive behind your adamant defense of your odd "GN" both in this thread and in the other one. It seems I have struck a nerve. I like you Harvey but It needed to be said. Now I am done....I have no desire to argue with you about this. Will wait and see what is proven, if it is or is not GN......I have no horse in the race. Ampersand and Figgary, It is normal to have leaf variability on a plant..........in this case the ENTIRE plant, all of the leaves are the wrong shape. That is a very different issue. Figgary your plant though sure does not look like VDB though at least right now.

WillsC

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Posted 1410281257	Reply with quote #36

Quote: Originally Posted by HarveyC Rafed also said he was absolutely certain I had the real deal. I am on the phone with Rafed right now and he is telling me he never said any such thing. Perhaps long ago he reassured you that Robert got the real deal GN from him and if you got it from Robert you should have the real deal....BUT once Rafed saw the leaf pattern on your plant he told you he had serious doubts that your plant was a true "GN". You posting the quote above is just wrong as you know Rafed can't post and say he never said it. Rafed wants you to Post the picture of the plant Robert sent you.

MichaelTucson

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Posted 1410286392	Reply with quote #37

Hi Harvey, Here's a link to another couple of pictures of different style leaves on a single tree. http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1274630559&postcount=65 That's an Aubique Petite, and each limb of the tree is consistent in producing leaves with the same number of lobes per leaf, but different limbs have different leaves. I'm with Jon on this type of variation in leaf morphology: it's about as close as you can get (same pot, same culture, same weather, same moment in time, similar growth rate on different limbs, same everything... it's the same single tree! I don't know the cause of it.). This kind of leaf variability seems to be inherently part of the nature of certain varieties. Jon showed Raspberry Latte, others have shown VDB, I'm showing Aubique Petite, and there are probably others that exhibit this "kind" of leaf variability. I do think there are other "kinds" of leaf variability too. For example the kind with immature branches/trees making one kind of leaf (somewhat consistently), and then a different kind of leaf when the tree matures. And other types too. I suspect there are lots of different causes for these different kinds of leaf variability. The one that I find most intriguing is the kind where a particular variety exhibits two different leaf styles, consistently by limb. Regarding that kind of variability, I don't think it's a matter of different limbs having genetic mutations... rather it seems to be triggered by something else. (I guess it's possible that there are genetic factors that predispose that tree to have a couple of different leaf patterns, and something else besides a mutation "triggers" or "activates" that for a particular limb). The reason I think it's not that is: I've taken cuttings of this tree, and rooted them. The cutting from the "one-lobed limb" produced a new tree that makes both kinds of leaves. The cutting from the "seven-lobed limb" also produced another tree that makes both kinds of leaves. So I think it's not mutations causing it. Similarly I doubt that it's a chimera (though it could be that, with highly granular packing of the two strains, but with some external variable acting as the trigger/activator). Whatever it is, this sort of behavior is pretty intriguing. And I do think this sort of leaf variability is somehow a different phenomenon from some of the other sorts of leaf variability behaviors we see. Have fun sorting it out! Mike central NY state, zone 5a ------------------------------------------------------------------------- How about we keep it about figs? Isn't Rafed free to speak for himself? Personally, I'm hoping someone will comment about whether or not they think there are these different "kinds" of leaf morphology variabilities... __________________ Pauca sed matura.

MichaelTucson

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Posted 1410286996	Reply with quote #38

Quote: Originally Posted by me The reason I think it's not <genetic mutation in different limbs of the same tree> is: I've taken cuttings of this tree, and rooted them. The cutting from the "one-lobed limb" produced a new tree that makes both kinds of leaves. The cutting from the "seven-lobed limb" also produced another tree that makes both kinds of leaves. So I think it's not mutations causing it. Similarly I doubt that it's a chimera (though it could be that, with highly granular packing of the two strains, but with some external variable acting as the trigger/activator). Whatever it is, this sort of behavior is pretty intriguing. And I do think this sort of leaf variability is somehow a different phenomenon from some of the other sorts of leaf variability behaviors we see. By the way, I haven't done any genetic testing on these. (And don't plan to). :-) Mike central NY state, zone 5a __________________ Pauca sed matura.

HarveyC

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Posted 1410288417	Reply with quote #39

Wills, you have hijacked this thread by not discussing the causes of leaf changes but, instead, to lodge accusations against me. I just replied to an email from Rafed he sent because of your call, Wills. I am not going to post private communications from him online. Rafed is 100% certain I was screwed by Rob now but that was not his position earlier this year. In fact, less than a month ago he thought his Genovese Nero was wrong but now he's sure about what he has. Yes, it does strike a nerve when some accuses me of promoting false information because of money. What motives do you have for such an accusation. I value my integrity more than you realize, apparently. The money I make from fig trees is a very small part of my income (less than 5% for anything fig-related, Genovese Nero is tiny). My opinions about things don't change with the direction of the wind. I am not 100% certain what I have is Genovese Nero but neither am I certain about what anybody has, actually. I am trying to research it further, possibly grow different plants from different sources for comparison. I have also been looking into the possibility of DNA testing of different sources. The money invested to do so would be to seek truth and a better understanding of things and probably can't be justified for financial reasons. The DNA testing done by USDA Davis previously used old methods (SSRs) and a limited number of gene markers that did not have a good basis for being selected. In early 2013 the internationa Genbank database had 360 gene sequences. Today, because of research done by Japanese researchers looking into differences between common figs and caprifigs and because of research done by Israeli researchers into Brown Turkey (?!?!), there are over 17,000 gene sequences in the Genbank database. A very good friend of mine who is a scientist working in genetics told me a few days ago that if DNA markers were established that a private firm would probably charge $20-$50 per sample for testing. I imagine it might be higher because of economies of scale, etc. I am in the process of having my own DNA tested at a cost of $99, but this is more extensive than what would be needed for plant identification purposes, I believe. To get back on topic, here are just some ideals I have about leaf changes: 1. Mutation 2. Soil conditions, including fertility and pH 3. Weather/climate 4. FMV 5. Presence of insect pests 6. Aging process 7. Other? __________________ Harvey - Correia Farms Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14 http://www.figaholics.com https://www.facebook.com/Figaholics

HarveyC

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Posts: 3,294

Posted 1410288904	Reply with quote #40

Thanks, Mike. Keep good care of that tree - if I can find a way to get accurate DNA testing done, I'd like to have test done on both types of limbs. I am fascinated with these sorts of questions. Not to justify my claim to have Genovese Nero. I am 57 years old and still trying to learn new things. I have even had crazy thoughts of going back to college. I'm a dreamer, I guess. __________________ Harvey - Correia Farms Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14 http://www.figaholics.com https://www.facebook.com/Figaholics

Aaron4USA

Registered:1375832059
Posts: 2,969

Posted 1410290883	Reply with quote #41

Harvey, I am fascinated by this subject and love the fact that you opened this thread. Here's another view of to How to look at this entire point of the changes we see in Figs... I've had this book for quite some time now and it's my second most valued book (after Holly Bible) of my entire library. I hope you guys have read this, it's a very interesting and informative book about Human Blood Types and HOW it evolved and WHY. Here's the part (1,2,3,4, blood types) that talks very briefly about the process of CHANGE in blood type during survival of Human Species. Perhaps Fig plant needs those changes, as adjustments, in order to survive and thrive.

BLB

Registered:1214341548
Posts: 2,936

Posted 1410293454	Reply with quote #42

pssst Harey, I have a genuine GN, cuttings are only $500 a piece lol Sorry couldn't help myself. Seriously though, why not get new cuttings and see what happens?

RichinNJ

Registered:1374784282
Posts: 1,687

Posted 1410294375	Reply with quote #43

Quote: Originally Posted by WillsC Quote: Originally Posted by HarveyC Rafed also said he was absolutely certain I had the real deal. I am on the phone with Rafed right now and he is telling me he never said any such thing. Perhaps long ago he reassured you that Robert got the real deal GN from him and if you got it from Robert you should have the real deal....BUT once Rafed saw the leaf pattern on your plant he told you he had serious doubts that your plant was a true "GN". You posting the quote above is just wrong as you know Rafed can't post and say he never said it. Rafed wants you to Post the picture of the plant Robert sent you. Great here we go again with these two....

RichinNJ

Registered:1374784282
Posts: 1,687

Posted 1410294563	Reply with quote #44

Quote: Originally Posted by HarveyC Wills, you have hijacked this thread by not discussing the causes of leaf changes but, instead, to lodge accusations against me. I just replied to an email from Rafed he sent because of your call, Wills. I am not going to post private communications from him online. Rafed is 100% certain I was screwed by Rob now but that was not his position earlier this year. In fact, less than a month ago he thought his Genovese Nero was wrong but now he's sure about what he has. Yes, it does strike a nerve when some accuses me of promoting false information because of money. What motives do you have for such an accusation. I value my integrity more than you realize, apparently. The money I make from fig trees is a very small part of my income (less than 5% for anything fig-related, Genovese Nero is tiny). My opinions about things don't change with the direction of the wind. I am not 100% certain what I have is Genovese Nero but neither am I certain about what anybody has, actually. I am trying to research it further, possibly grow different plants from different sources for comparison. I have also been looking into the possibility of DNA testing of different sources. The money invested to do so would be to seek truth and a better understanding of things and probably can't be justified for financial reasons. The DNA testing done by USDA Davis previously used old methods (SSRs) and a limited number of gene markers that did not have a good basis for being selected. In early 2013 the internationa Genbank database had 360 gene sequences. Today, because of research done by Japanese researchers looking into differences between common figs and caprifigs and because of research done by Israeli researchers into Brown Turkey (?!?!), there are over 17,000 gene sequences in the Genbank database. A very good friend of mine who is a scientist working in genetics told me a few days ago that if DNA markers were established that a private firm would probably charge $20-$50 per sample for testing. I imagine it might be higher because of economies of scale, etc. I am in the process of having my own DNA tested at a cost of $99, but this is more extensive than what would be needed for plant identification purposes, I believe. To get back on topic, here are just some ideals I have about leaf changes: 1. Mutation 2. Soil conditions, including fertility and pH 3. Weather/climate 4. FMV 5. Presence of insect pests 6. Aging process 7. Other? You hit the nail on the head Harvey. Back on topic my Negronne has had 2 different leaf types. The first year most were round, second year most were fingers.

WillsC

Registered:1348087628
Posts: 1,698

Posted 1410295077	Reply with quote #45

Quote: Originally Posted by HarveyC Wills, you have hijacked this thread by not discussing the causes of leaf changes but, instead, to lodge accusations against me. I just replied to an email from Rafed he sent because of your call, Wills. I am not going to post private communications from him online. Rafed is 100% certain I was screwed by Rob now but that was not his position earlier this year. In fact, less than a month ago he thought his Genovese Nero was wrong but now he's sure about what he has. Yes, it does strike a nerve when some accuses me of promoting false information because of money. What motives do you have for such an accusation. I value my integrity more than you realize, apparently. The money I make from fig trees is a very small part of my income (less than 5% for anything fig-related, Genovese Nero is tiny). My opinions about things don't change with the direction of the wind. I am not 100% certain what I have is Genovese Nero but neither am I certain about what anybody has, actually. I am trying to research it further, possibly grow different plants from different sources for comparison. I have also been looking into the possibility of DNA testing of different sources. The money invested to do so would be to seek truth and a better understanding of things and probably can't be justified for financial reasons. The DNA testing done by USDA Davis previously used old methods (SSRs) and a limited number of gene markers that did not have a good basis for being selected. In early 2013 the internationa Genbank database had 360 gene sequences. Today, because of research done by Japanese researchers looking into differences between common figs and caprifigs and because of research done by Israeli researchers into Brown Turkey (?!?!), there are over 17,000 gene sequences in the Genbank database. A very good friend of mine who is a scientist working in genetics told me a few days ago that if DNA markers were established that a private firm would probably charge $20-$50 per sample for testing. I imagine it might be higher because of economies of scale, etc. I am in the process of having my own DNA tested at a cost of $99, but this is more extensive than what would be needed for plant identification purposes, I believe. To get back on topic, here are just some ideals I have about leaf changes: 1. Mutation 2. Soil conditions, including fertility and pH 3. Weather/climate 4. FMV 5. Presence of insect pests 6. Aging process 7. Other? Harvey, I have accused you of nothing......I simply asked a question. Perhaps a question you did not like but it was a fair question. You brought up GN......in the first sentence of your thread, Harvey. You like to jump to conclusions, I did not call Rafed he called me..... he asked what I was doing and told him dealing with an angry Harvey......he asked why.......I told him. Then he saw that you had posted that "Rafed also said he was absolutely certain I had the real deal" Then Rafed got angry as he had actually told you that you DO NOT HAVE THE REAL GN. Just the facts...... What's more Harvey.....are these not your words on the GN thread? Have you not been stockpiling many copies of your supposed "GN"? Quote: Originally Posted by HarveyC I will do my best to eliminate this from the list of rare varieties. :) I will let members decide for themselves just what you meant by that.

Ampersand

Registered:1389979527
Posts: 728

Posted 1410297066	Reply with quote #46

How about them figs?!

HarveyC

Registered:1212433117
Posts: 3,294

Posted 1410298859	Reply with quote #47

Barry, back on the thread about Genovese Nero (this thread is supposed to be about leaf changes) I already said I'd like to get cuttings from another source to grow and compare. Someone has already told me they would provide cuttings this winter. Okay? Wills, call you what you want, I won't play your game. You "fair question" was clearly an accusation. I already made it clear that mh bringing up Genovese Nero in this thread was only about it had changed leaves for others. Yes, Rafed has recently said he suspects Rob lost his tree and has passed of something else as GN. In January he wrote otherwise. No stockpiling going on here. I have three fairly large trees in the ground of what are supposedly Genovese Nero that will need a lot of pruning. After all of this, I will certainly make note of the controversy is if sell any of them. I have had leople write me to say they feel bad for me for the way I'vs been treated. Thanks, but I can handle it and am not "angry". But I sill respond to such accusations as I seee fit. For what it's worth, I'm enjoying a lot of great figs! __________________ Harvey - Correia Farms Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14 http://www.figaholics.com https://www.facebook.com/Figaholics

BLB

Registered:1214341548
Posts: 2,936

Posted 1410299654	Reply with quote #48

See there is a problem communicating, because your "okay?" comment sounds like sarcasm to me when I lightheartedly made a suggestion to you. I hope it wasn't, but either way we have to be clear in communications, are we taking a shot at someone, making a joke or a valid point and so on. Harvey I really don't care what you do with it, I just found the thread to be a bit overbearing and tried to redirect to an easy solution, grow a fresh start and compare...or not

HarveyC

Registered:1212433117
Posts: 3,294

Posted 1410304053	Reply with quote #49

Barry, no sarcasm, though maybe equivalent of a "wink". I already had that covered and had mentioned it in what I considered the appropriate thread. My patience has been duly tested in this thread so if I fail to clearly communicate my thoughts, please accept my apology. Okay? ;) __________________ Harvey - Correia Farms Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14 http://www.figaholics.com https://www.facebook.com/Figaholics

BLB

Registered:1214341548
Posts: 2,936

Posted 1410306281	Reply with quote #50

well alright then Harvey

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