I will be ordering acorns for "Southern Live Oak" (Quercus virginiana).  I need a supply of seedlings for an school project.

After the acorns germinate will there be a considerable difference in leaf shape?  I have searched the images for 'Southern Live Oak' and have noted that some leaves are oval-shaped, with entire margins, and then some leaves look almost like a Holly, with bristles, and pointed margins. Some leaves have rolled edges, and some are wavy and not flat.  Is this leaf variation common to this Oak?  I am hoping for the leaves to look like 'European Olive'.

I read somewhere that 'Live Oak' has a juvenile leaf form, and a mature leaf form, sometimes having  variable shaped leaves on the same branch.  Do the leaves revert-to-type as the tree puts on some age?  Or, is the variation permanent?

I'm hoping to get some first hand information from Southerners who are familiar with this species. 

Thanks for any help offered.

I do not know the answer, but you might want to also ask at the Garden Web Tree Forum, there seems to be a lot of discussion of various oaks there:

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/trees/

Hi BronxFigs,
All the Live Oaks I know of in Alabama are ancient trees, so I can't tell you about the behavior of a sapling. Southern Live Oaks (virginiana) keep their leaves year round. I guess they shed leaves in rotations (like a pine) so that the tree always has a course of leaves through the winter -- unlike most other oaks that go completely bare in winter. Some leaves are rather flat and narrow, but when mature get broader with a bit of a "wave" to them. I assumed the young ones were the thin ones and as they aged they began to show a bit of the variation, but I could be wrong. This wiki photo is exactly what ours look like when mature: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Quercus_virginiana-leaves-acorns.jpg

Virginiana does not have the holly-like points along the sides...that variety is Coast Live Oak agrifolia--a West Coast oak. 
The other Live Oak that I suppose is a common California Live Oak is wislizeni which is capable of cross-identifying with other oaks and thus produces great leaf variance.

If you want an absolutely straight, narrow leaf, you might consider Willow Oak. Ours here in Alabama tend to be straight and tall and have longer slender leaves. However, they don't have quite the character of of the Southern Live Oak--although if you want this kind of character --> https://sites.aces.edu/group/backyardwisdom/Lists/Posts/Attachments/290/DuffieLiveOak5_thumb_771BBAA5.jpg 
you might have to wait a couple hundred years :)

Thanks for the replies and the information.

I don't think I have ever seen a "Live Oak", except in pictures.  NYC gets too cold, and for too long, for this species to survive up here.  But....if figs survive unprotected.... I thought I'd try some "Live Oak".

The reason I asked questions on this forum was because we are all smart, and....some of the forum members live down South of Dixie, where this tree grows.  However, I will also go onto the Garden Web forums and ask.

I once ordered some seedling from a grower located in Florida, and the seedling looked just like small Holly twigs.  The leaves actually were quite stiff with pointy margins, and even pinched my fingers.  God know what kind of seedlings I got, but they sure didn't look like what I expected.

RICK C .....Thanks for the links, and the Willow Oak information.  Willow Oak is very common up here, and the leaves do look sort of similar, but the "WO" leaves grow in whorls around the branch tips, giving the tree a much different appearance.  It might be an alternative.

(By the way....yesterday while driving, I thought I saw what looked to be an 'European Olive' tree growing in a front yard, here in The Bronx/NYC.  I got out of the car and walked over to the small 4 ft. tree to investigate.  Sure enough...it was an Olive, growing in a front yard.  I didn't see any container buried into the surrounding soil, either.  Two possibilities:  the tree is growing in the yard, and will soon be brought inside, or, there are "hardy" Olives that will grow in Zone-7b.  Is that possible)?  I will have to re-visit the yard to see if the tree stays, or gets lifted to a warmer area.  If I see the grower, I will ask.


Thanks again-






Frank

We have a lot of them around our neighborhood but I have only seen them planted as small trees, and the leaves are thin and pointed, like an olive... the small trees my neighbors had planted leaves look just like the 25yrs old ones that are massive that run down the main road into out area.

I have some Cork oaks and we will see if the Holm oaks germinate next year.  Supposedly they survive in 6b but only grow as a shrub instead of a tree, so we will see.

Thanks-

Those seedlings that had the Holly-like leaves, must have been mislabeled. 

Thanks for the new information.



Frank

Frank,

Just went out and took a couple pictures of one of ours for you.  The back half of our property is covered in large OLD live oaks if you want acorns just yell....the season is now.  Also have pignut hickory nuts if you want them.  

The young leaves do look like holly, prickers and all,  mature leaves don't look like holly.  Both of these leaves are from the same tree, the one in the picture.  The holly looking leaves are from a sucker with new growth growing shoulder high on the tree and the oval leaves I harvested with the help of my .22:)

Holy crap!

I threw away all the seedlings that I had ordered because the leaves looked like the leaves in the photo above.  So.....this tree makes two kinds of leaves.  I'll bet the young, prickly leaves are harder for animals to eat, so that the tree can grow larger, and survive to procreate.  What a hoot! 

Thank you and your son for not only taking photos, but for getting examples of both the juvenile and adult leaves from this oak tree.



Frank

Frank,

The .22 is not a son, it is a rifle lol  I used the rifle to get a canopy sample.  I am no expert but I think the new leaves look like holly and as they fill out and age they lose the holly look to them.  In the mature leaf picture on the right hand side just a bit down from the tip there is a small indentation...I believe that is where the point of the holly look had been when the leaf was young but I am just guessing.  All the mature leaves and all the leaves on the ground look like the mature leaf, no holly looking ones so I believe I am right.  

WillsC....

Boy did I screw up reading your posting.  I thought, and I don't know why, that your 22 year old son somehow climbed the tree and picked some older leaves.  I'm laughing so hard right now at my stupidity that I could hardly write this reply! 

I have to realize that down in Florida, and in other states that actually, almost, respect The Constitution, that you can legally fire a gun.  Living in ultra-liberal, NYC, the 'Toilet of the World'....if I ever decided to squeeze the trigger on my  .22 to "trim" off some leaves, I would be languishing, in the company of $2.00 drag-queens, in the infamous, 'Tombs' waiting for arraignment within an hour of firing the shot.  Then, BronxFigs would also have to deal with posting bail, and the trial lawyer$$$$$.  ALL my guns would be confiscated, and the more expensive firearms would somehow....get "lost in the system".  It would take at least 6 mos. to year of aggravation to re-activate my license....maybe, if I'm lucky, and that's if I "know somebody".  (In NYC, it's always good to have low friends in high places).   NYC is NOT the sterling example of the 2nd Amendment's..."shall not be infringed" clause. 

But I digress.  After doing a little more reading, I found some validation of your observations.  Yes, "Live Oak" has juvenile, pointed, prickly leaves that then, morph with age, to become the typical oval leaves, with entire margins. I also read that "Live Oak" has a long adolescence, so the Holly-like leaves will be there for some time.  Also, once established, I read these oaks are rampant growers.  All very interesting, this.

Thanks for the laughs, and for the new information in your posting # 10.  I just found a place, in Florida, that sells "Live Oak" seedlings for 56 cents each.  For that price, I'll order a few dozen plants and take my chances.


Frank

Frank,

They really are nice trees......the branches grow horizontal and are just blanketed with resurrection ferns and native green fly orchids.

Down here gunfire is a daily occurrence, just another tool.   I could not exist where you live so you have to be tough to tolerate it.

WillsC...

When I was younger, I had a much thicker skin, and tolerated all kinds of crap that others would never begin to endure.  I no longer can stomach the ultra-liberal, NYC 'mentality' and the sheep-like people, anymore.  If I had my druthers, I'd high-tail it out of this cesspool with the greatest of speed.  It rotted me out.  A slow death by a thousand cuts.  But, you still could get a nice Pastrami sandwich here.  : )  You need to have to have a good sense of humor to live here, or you'd go stick your head in the oven, and take gas.

The "Live Oak" is really beautiful.  I once stopped overnight, in Savannah, Georgia while driving down to Florida.  I saw what I thought looked like shredded clothes hanging from most of the trees and I was told that it was 'Spanish Moss'.  I will never forget that strange sight....however, the grits that I was served with breakfast, I could forget. 


Frank

Frank,

All the trees here are covered in spanish moss, it is a living plant and it does add a nice ambience.  About 2 miles from me is a section of road they call the avenue of the oaks, I think you will like it.  http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=floral+city+avenue+of+the+oaks&go=&qs=n&form=QBIR&pq=floral+city+avenue+of+the+oaks&sc=0-16&sp=-1&sk=#a

Try a search on Water Oak. They have leaves that look like willow and the acorns are pea sized. They are more hardy and grow here in the southwest part of  Virginia.
Mike

WillsC...

What a sight!  Just a beautiful section of road.  In fact, so unusual that it looks fake....almost like a Hollywood set.  Spotless, pristine, mossy, quiet....almost like a Botanical Cathedral.  Looks just like the trees that I saw in Savannah, Georgia.

Thanks,


Frank




EDIT : 

MAZWAY:  Just did a search for Quercus nigra "Water Oak".  Both this oak and the "Willow Oak" are two alternatives.   Thanks.