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Rich's Super Mega Mix

I will not be using promix for up potting, but for planting newly rooted cuttings I like the idea of a more sterile mix (promix HP and PBF). Anyone know how many cu ft the 3.8 promix expands to?
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I have 6 Bills Figs pots and grow my finest trees in 100% mushroom compost (This is what Bill uses) I cant argue with its success. I have had more figs from Bills Pots than any other method I have used here in Northern NJ.
I also use mixtures like my friend Pete's in my non Bill pots and when I propagate in small SIP's and appreciate what they do. 
I must say, it has always surprised me that the  mushroom compost only method has done so well.
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Dennis,
  In post #37 you say "Al's mix is great and trees grow well in it, but I can't use that stuff for my self watering pots."  What is it about that 5-1-1 mix that you don't like in self watering pots?  Do you find that you need more fine particles to get proper wicking, as Pete mentions in post 45?  Or  is there something else you don't like about it?
Cheers,
Jim
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Originally Posted by ADelmanto
I will not be using promix for up potting, but for planting newly rooted cuttings I like the idea of a more sterile mix (promix HP and PBF). Anyone know how many cu ft the 3.8 promix expands to?


It about doubles in volume from compressed to fluffed up.
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Originally Posted by ADelmanto
How many cubic ft are in one of those $35 bails of ProMix? It says 3.8 cu ft but it expands to ??? Let's say 8 cu ft that's $4.38/ cu ft. I cut that with equal amounts of PBF say $10 for 8 cu ft. So I'm at $45 for 16 cu ft. Or $2.81 cu ft. Plus lime and fert. Sound about right? I'm looking to cut that in half.


Aaron, according to the distributor I recently ordered from, the company claims the 3.8 CF compressed bale is equivalent to 7.2 CF after being flocked, but the distributor also said that it was probably more realistic to expect 7.0 CF if loosening up by hand instead of equipment designed for this purpose.  I hadn't seen ProMix HP as high as $35, but I know it varies in different areas of the country (I believe Rafed got 4 bales for $100).  I ended up going with a large pallet of loose fill material (80 CF per pallet).  Still not cheap, but I've been very pleased with the results, much better then the mixes I tried making myself.
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Originally Posted by needaclone
Dennis,
  In post #37 you say "Al's mix is great and trees grow well in it, but I can't use that stuff for my self watering pots."  What is it about that 5-1-1 mix that you don't like in self watering pots?  Do you find that you need more fine particles to get proper wicking, as Pete mentions in post 45?  Or  is there something else you don't like about it?
Cheers,
Jim


I think the peat is needed for the capillary action to move water from the reservoir through the soil. Mixes with a lot of pine fines can't move water in that way.
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Originally Posted by HarveyC
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Originally Posted by ADelmanto
How many cubic ft are in one of those $35 bails of ProMix? It says 3.8 cu ft but it expands to ??? Let's say 8 cu ft that's $4.38/ cu ft. I cut that with equal amounts of PBF say $10 for 8 cu ft. So I'm at $45 for 16 cu ft. Or $2.81 cu ft. Plus lime and fert. Sound about right? I'm looking to cut that in half.


Aaron, according to the distributor I recently ordered from, the company claims the 3.8 CF compressed bale is equivalent to 7.2 CF after being flocked, but the distributor also said that it was probably more realistic to expect 7.0 CF if loosening up by hand instead of equipment designed for this purpose.  I hadn't seen ProMix HP as high as $35, but I know it varies in different areas of the country (I believe Rafed got 4 bales for $100).  I ended up going with a large pallet of loose fill material (80 CF per pallet).  Still not cheap, but I've been very pleased with the results, much better then the mixes I tried making myself.


When I have been doing my calculations I have not been accounting for the expansion. I know when you flock peat it expands but when you water it and it sits it compresses. I see this expansion is only temporary and is reduced from 80% to maybe 20% over the summer when using peat based mixes.

There is a trade off between pine bark which doesn't hold much water until it's decomposed but it provides bulk and support and peat which holds a lot of water and compresses but provides much less support.

I'm filling more than 20, # 20 nursery pots this spring so I will need 50 cubic feet or more of mix
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I am interested in hearing from others about using home-made mixes in SIPs, especially with regard to wicking.  Last summer I made some test 5g SIPs that I planted tomatoes and peppers in, since my figs were just rooting or newly rooted at the time.  I used two mixes - one was half standard Miracle Grow and half pine bark fines, the other was a 5:1:1:1 mix similar to that posted by ascpete. 

I thought the one with half standard Miracle Grow potting mix-half PBF wicked better-it obviously had much more peat.  Both mixes settled by the end of the summer about 1.5 inches in the bucket.  I'm not sure I saw any difference in plant growth (all were fertilized the same), but it was not a real scientific analysis.  In all the buckets the roots had found their way into the water chamber in the bottom by the time I emptied the buckets end of season.
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Jim, as Pete said, you need more peat moss to help with the wicking.  The true Al mix has small rocks in it.  And on a 95 degree day, figs will droop badly from the excess temperature and dry air.  But tree being fed from the bottom has to be trained that way.  Some trees take days and some takes 2 weeks depending on when you're repotting them.  Me, I repot anytime of the year, not just Spring.  My trees growing in SWPs are much healthier than those not in SWPs.  
 
I got 3 or 4 bales of ProMix in storage.  I got it for $7 bucks a bale at Big Lots.  I bought all they had at that price (all 8 bales)!!!    It sells for $35 bucks a bale elsewhere.  I keep it on hand.  I like it a lot and so does my trees.  But it's not the best for SWPs.
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Originally Posted by ascpete
Rich,
The Pea Gravel serves a similar function as coarse Perlite at a fraction of the cost... it increase aeration, but will not degrade and will not float to the top. It only adds a few pounds to a 5 or 10 gallon container (only 13% of the mix) and locally I can get Pea Gravel delivered at a cost of ~ $20.00 per Cubic Yard.


Pete, perlite holds air and water as well as add drainage, I don't think it's an even exchange. I guess if you're using calcined clay that would somewhat substitute for perlite's water retention, but does it hold air?

On a similar note, has anyone tried adding limestone screens to their mix? I'm planning a modified 5-1-1 for next year and might add that. Weight isn't really an issue for me (at least not yet, lol). I can get the screens locally for $18/ton.
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Rich,

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Originally Posted by RichinNJ
MG is > than 60 % peat and I've had good results with it.

Fig trees will grow faster and healthier in a mix that is more aerated, but once the roots get established they will grow in almost any medium in adverse conditions. In my observations the denser porous mixes lead to closer internode spacing and slower overall growth.


Ed,
Soil porosity refers to the water holding ability due to the numerous small air spaces, while aeration refers to the large air spaces in the mix.
As mentioned the 5-1-1-1 mix is more aerated but less porous than the higher Peat (Fines) based recipes. The 1 part Absorbent (Calcined Clay) holds and wicks moisture and is porous but its aerated due to the large particle size, so the porous portion of the mix is ~ 3 parts (1 part Pine Bark Fines - 1 part Peat - 1 part Absorbent) which is close to the porosity of 50% Miracle grow mix.


Kelby,
Coarse Perlite holds very little water in a potting mix, its main function is to create air spaces (air entrainment) and keep the mix from compacting (settling). As mentioned the calcined clay is porous and holds water, but has larger particles that keep the mix aerated.
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I haven't really noticed any significant problem with it compacting once I've watered ProMix HP.  I like it because my plants seem to grow better in it than anything else I've tried so I just bought 160 CF of it.  Tired of messing around with other stuff.
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Originally Posted by HarveyC
I ended up going with a large pallet of loose fill material (80 CF per pallet).  Still not cheap, but I've been very pleased with the results, much better then the mixes I tried making myself.


What's this loose fill material made of?  Thanks.
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I dunno where to start here Pete....

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Originally Posted by ascpete


As mentioned the 5-1-1-1 mix is more aerated but less porous than the higher Peat (Fines) based recipes. The 1 part Absorbent (Calcined Clay) holds and wicks moisture and is porous but its aerated due to the large particle size, so the porous portion of the mix is ~ 3 parts (1 part Pine Bark Fines - 1 part Peat - 1 part Absorbent) which is close to the porosity of 50% Miracle grow mix.


I disagree.
Adding clay makes the mix more dense, less aerated that mix with perlite.
I do not believe that this mix is similar to Miracle Grow Potting Mix and I have not seen data that says MG is 50% porosity

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Originally Posted by ascpete


Coarse Perlite holds very little water in a potting mix, its main function is to create air spaces (air entrainment) and keep the mix from compacting (settling). As mentioned the calcined clay is porous and holds water, but has larger particles that keep the mix aerated.


I disagree..
Perlite holds a lot of water and its accessible to the plant. Adding clay makes the mix more dense and less aerated and I doubt the water is easily accessible to the plant. 
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Originally posted by RichinNJ,
I dunno where to start here Pete....
...
I disagree.
Adding clay makes the mix more dense, less aerated that mix with perlite.
I do not believe that this mix is similar to Miracle Grow Potting Mix and I have not seen data that says MG is 50% porosity

...
I disagree..
Perlite holds a lot of water and its accessible to the plant. Adding clay makes the mix more dense and less aerated and I doubt the water is easily accessible to the plant. 


The ~50% porosity that I mention is referring to Ed's mix of 50% Miracle grow and 50% pine Bark. It is referring to the fact that I consider the Peat, Fine Pine Bark and Calcined Clay all porous or High water retention ingredients in the mix. Other porous materials would be sand and compost. Also the calcined clay products do not break down they stay in their granular form for years because they have been Calcined, similar to Perlite, except that they are not as easily damaged.

About Perlite, attached is a document that I've linked in other potting mix topics. Cornell Ag College was one of the pioneers of Peat potting mixes in the 1960's, you may have read the following publication from the 1980's which includes their recipes for commercial mixes,
http://www.greenhouse.cornell.edu/crops/factsheets/peatlite.pdf
for water retention they rely on the peat and vermiculite in the mix.
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Bulletin 43,
Perlite does not decay or deteriorate except through physical destruction. It holds water on its irregular surface areas.

Perlite doesn't absorb and hold water, it gets wet on the exterior, that's why it floats.
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Originally Posted by ascpete
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Originally posted by RichinNJ,
I dunno where to start here Pete....
...
I disagree.
Adding clay makes the mix more dense, less aerated that mix with perlite.
I do not believe that this mix is similar to Miracle Grow Potting Mix and I have not seen data that says MG is 50% porosity

...
I disagree..
Perlite holds a lot of water and its accessible to the plant. Adding clay makes the mix more dense and less aerated and I doubt the water is easily accessible to the plant. 


The ~50% porosity that I mention is referring to Ed's mix of 50% Miracle grow and 50% pine Bark. It is referring to the fact that I consider the Peat, Fine Pine Bark and Calcined Clay all porous or High water retention ingredients in the mix. Other porous materials would be sand and compost. Also the calcined clay products do not break down they stay in their granular form for years because they have been Calcined, similar to Perlite, except that they are not as easily damaged.

About Perlite, attached is a document that I've linked in other potting mix topics. Cornell Ag College was one of the pioneers of Peat potting mixes in the 1960's, you may have read the following publication from the 1980's which includes their recipes for commercial mixes,
http://www.greenhouse.cornell.edu/crops/factsheets/peatlite.pdf
for water retention they rely on the peat and vermiculite in the mix.
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Bulletin 43,
Perlite does not decay or deteriorate except through physical destruction. It holds water on its irregular surface areas.

Perlite doesn't absorb and hold water, it gets wet on the exterior, that's why it floats.




That's the point..perlite absorbs and releases water. It's used in many potting mixes.

Clay on the other hand is a very bad medium to grow plants. That's why people add soil amendments like peat to it to make things grow better

I don't think its a good idea to add it to potting mixes. I have never seen any mix use it.

If you need to add weight for some reason then sand is a much better idea.

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Rich,
The Calcined Clay is a processed product... Napa Floor Dry, Oil Dry, Oil Absorbent, Calcined Diatomaceous Earth, Calcined Clay, Turface ETC. It will add aeration to the potting mix.
floor_dry.jpg

From a current Topic on Napa Floor Dry,
http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=7193772
These clay products have been proven over years of use and have been discussed extensively here and on GardenWeb...

I look forward to your Super Mega Mix updates, Good Luck.
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Originally Posted by ascpete
Rich,
The Calcined Clay is a processed product... Napa Floor Dry, Oil Dry, Oil Absorbent, Calcined Diatomaceous Earth, Calcined Clay, Turface ETC. It will add aeration to the potting mix.
floor_dry.jpg

From a current Topic on Napa Floor Dry,
http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=7193772
These clay products have been proven over years of use and have been discussed extensively here and on GardenWeb...

I look forward to your Super Mega Mix updates, Good Luck.


No. Clay will not increase aeration in potting mix.

I have not seen any data saying it will.

It's a bad idea.

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How bout those figs!!!!
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Rich,
Links to discussions about Turface and Napa Floor Dry (Calcined clay) and Potting Mixes @ GardenWeb...
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/bonsai/msg0219033011437.html
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg1221344425812.html
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg0323131520631.html
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg0914024623640.html
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg0921071615772.html

Good Luck.
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Originally Posted by snaglpus
How bout those figs!!!!


Figs are good.. Check out that persimmon video Aaron posted. Very interesting.
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I should start by saying I'm a landscape designer and landscaper. I've been in the industry professionally for 22 years. I've worked in a wholesale nursery where we sold Turface to contractors thru a Sports Turf division. It's actually designed as a draining agent for baseball fields and golf courses. When tilled into the soil it creates a place for water to drain because of it's high porosity.

I've never personally used Turface or any other similar product in my fig potting soil but I have used it in the flower garden. I had an issue with a customer who loved lavender and had clay soil. The soil held too much water when it rained and the roots rotted away. After some research I added the Turface and achieved the results I was looking for. Adding the calcined clay to clay soil is what was needed. (The calcine process turns the clay into a kind of ceramic). It's actually quite light, much lighter than you would think.
For me I would not put it in my fig potting mix because I'm happy with pearlite and products that include it. Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by rcantor
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Originally Posted by HarveyC
I ended up going with a large pallet of loose fill material (80 CF per pallet).  Still not cheap, but I've been very pleased with the results, much better then the mixes I tried making myself.


What's this loose fill material made of?  Thanks.


It's the same as the compressed bales of ProMix HP which Pete wrote in post 45 as being 75% peat and 25% perlite (I believe that's correct, but the large pallets don't list the ingredients like the compressed bale packaging does).  Plus lime, mycorrhizae, and fertilizer.  It has worked out well for rooting in and for growing figs in pots.  I enjoy growing plants.  I don't really enjoy making my own mixes.
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Originally Posted by ADelmanto
I should start by saying I'm a landscape designer and landscaper. I've been in the industry professionally for 22 years. I've worked in a wholesale nursery where we sold Turface to contractors thru a Sports Turf division. It's actually designed as a draining agent for baseball fields and golf courses. When tilled into the soil it creates a place for water to drain because of it's high porosity.

I've never personally used Turface or any other similar product in my fig potting soil but I have used it in the flower garden. I had an issue with a customer who loved lavender and had clay soil. The soil held too much water when it rained and the roots rotted away. After some research I added the Turface and achieved the results I was looking for. Adding the calcined clay to clay soil is what was needed. (The calcine process turns the clay into a kind of ceramic). It's actually quite light, much lighter than you would think.
For me I would not put it in my fig potting mix because I'm happy with pearlite and products that include it. Hope this helps.


Thanks for that. I can see how Turface might aid in making a very heavy (garden) soil lighter. Their site promotes it for use in drying out athletic fields, baseball diamonds etc.

And I agree with you that perlite is a much better way to make an already light mix lighter ( I.e. good results in potting mix)
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ADelmanto,
Thanks for sharing your experience with Turface (Calcined Clay).

As I mentioned earlier it serves a dual role in potting mixes, its porous (holds/ absorbs moisture and nutrients) and also adds aeration (due to its shape and particle size). It has the benefits of both Vermiculite and Perlite.
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