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adipose

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Posted Reply with quote  #1 
I have been experimenting with a bunch of different methods, and I will post my results later.  I am completely new at this; although I do have a few fig trees, I have never rooted them before.

I started off in SM, and transferred to cups when I saw either roots or shoots.  Some had both, some had one or the other.  Since I transferred to cups, I don't see any progression, really.  It has been a few weeks.  I am just too impatient or all they all failing to take root?  That's always the question, I guess.

I have them under a light I got on Amazon (yes I did sign up for the foundation--I have already purchased probably $4K of stuff on there for work, and plenty more to come):

http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006856EQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have them in a humidity bin bought at Big Lots for $10.

Some pics:

fig1.jpg

fig2.jpg 

 
IMG_20150509_112613757.jpg 



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adipose

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Posted Reply with quote  #2 
Should I try a brighter light, or is the one I posted bright enough?  Should I put it closer to the figs?
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tyro

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Posted Reply with quote  #3 
Leave the light alone or raise it.Replace the transparent sleeve's with a perforated sleeve that
blocks light and be patient.You are trying to grow roots,they don't like light.Unless you see mold
don't panic.I'm just seeing roots on some of the cuttings I started in Feb.

Cheers,

Paul
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drphil69

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Posted Reply with quote  #4 
Patience, as Paul said.  Some are slower than others.  I have a Preto that took 16 weeks to show roots, about 12 to show green buds... it's still in it's cup since early November and about ready to up pot.  Good luck!
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Jerry_M

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Posted Reply with quote  #5 
I see you use double cups. I did as well except the outer cup was red.
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adipose

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Posted Reply with quote  #6 
Thanks for the replies.  I guess I have to be more patient :)

I did use double cups.  Actually I used a modified version of Dan's with the Jiffy pots, and the double cups.  My outer cup has been modified as well to help draining.  I will post some pics later.

Paul, I read that if there are buds I should provide light.  I am providing 16 hours of light, which is probably 4 inches away.  It seems like you are saying less light is better.  Should I only do 8 hours?  The perforated sleeve would reduce light as well, so again it seems like you prefer almost no light?

Thanks again!
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brettjm

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Posted Reply with quote  #7 
Barnisotte is proving to be my tricky variety.  6 weeks in, and 1 out of 4 has rooted, and it only has one root.  Given, its a glorious, 10 inch long healthy, branching root...but its still only one root.

Addressing the "few weeks" its been since you potted up.  I agree that patience is a virtue...but I've been potting up from coco-coir when roots are 1/2" or so long into 32 oz cups.  I see those roots hit the side of the cup within 7-14 days or sooner unless they've died, without exception.  If they hit 2 weeks and I see nothing, I take them out of media and inspect, and without fail, the roots have desiccated or rotted.  3 weeks in those little cups and no roots on the side is really concerning, IMO.  How wet is your mix, and what is it?  I've found that a surefire way to kill your new roots is to get them too wet....

Don't do anything drastic...I've worked with 60+ cuttings, but this is my first year doing this, so I'm by no means a guru.  Wait for a few other folks to chime in.
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tyro

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Posted Reply with quote  #8 
You might want to pull one out of the cup and inspect it as Brett suggested.I don't like to see any top growth until there's root enough to support it.Here's a
couple of stragglers that I'm still carrying.

P1010068.JPG 
My rooting process could best be described as benign neglect,so I don't worry if it takes a couple
of months to root.Here's a couple of Preto that had initials in Feb.

P1010070.JPG 

Taking their time.Probably be mid June before they'll fill the cup.

P1010069.JPG 
If you have no roots at all you need to tear a couple down and have a look.

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Paul.Simi Valley,Ca.Zone 9a/Sunset 18
Rob

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Posted Reply with quote  #9 
What are you using for potting mix and how moist/wet is it?  The way there's sort of a ring around the top looks strange to me.  Is that from watering? 

I disagree with Tyro.  If you are rooting indoors, light is irrelevant for the roots.  If you are rooting outdoors, you should be doing it in full shade, at least until there are a bunch of roots.  I use lights similar to what you have, brighter if anything.  But the roots don't care one way or the other. 

I use sphagnum, but only put the cuttings into the cup once I see roots.  There can be shoot growth a long time before there are any roots (a month or more, sometimes).  It's OK to put them in the cups early, just harder to keep the conditions just right. 

I don't use humidity bins anymore.  Sometimes I will take a cup and cut a few holes in it and invert it on top of a cutting.  That provides enough humidity.  If I am rooting outside this time of year, I don't do anything for humidity, since it's already plenty humid. 

I would never take a cutting out of a cup to inspect it unless I was certain I had grossly overwatered.  If there are any roots, you will almost certainly break them.  If there aren't, then what did you learn?
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adipose

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Posted Reply with quote  #10 
I have some green tip cuttings I am trying to root outside.  They seem to be doing well.  Some of the indoor cuttings I am afraid of losing so I am using the humidity bin.

The ring around the top may be from having the Jiffy pot in there.  I don't put much water in them, just enough to keep it barely damp.  Usually if the jiffy pot starts to turn lighter, I add a small amount of water.
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Rob

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Posted Reply with quote  #11 
So you have potting mix inside of a jiffy pot inside of a cup?  Is the potting mix pressed in their pretty well, or is it loosely packed?  If it's nice and firm, I think you've got the moisture levels about right, since that jiffy pot will act like a wick and an indicator of moisture or dryness.  If it's very loose, it might not wick as much with the mix. 

I also think we know why you're not seeing any roots. I have never used jiffy pots when rooting cuttings, but I would think it would take a little while for the roots to make their way through the jiffy pots and be visible in the cup.  So maybe they're there but you just can't see them. 
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adipose

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Posted Reply with quote  #12 
It's packed in pretty well.  There is also soil under the jiffy pot and around it.
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tyro

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Posted Reply with quote  #13 
Jiffy pots?Oy Vey.
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Posted Reply with quote  #14 
Some folks swear by the jiffy pot...have not tried it myself.  Well, that's probably why you don't see roots though....they'll break through eventually, if they're there.  If they're not...well...that's why I like my clear plastic cups.  Hope everything works out one way or another.
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Posted Reply with quote  #15 
Dan - Don't worry about the light.  I've rooted many cuttings indoors under grow lights with no ill effects.

It might be the way that the pictures are taken but I don't see any holes in those cups.  You definitely need holes in the cups so air can get into your soil.  Also, the potting mix looks a little too moist.  I like to keep the cuttings more on the dryer side.

I've used Dan's peat pot method before and killed many cuttings.  The roots never made it through the peat pots, only through the hole in the bottom.  Most of the roots just circled inside the peat pot and the cutting would die.  Also found that the peat pot drying out was not really an indication that you needed more water.  I know this because after weeks of no activity I started dumping them out to see what was going on and found the potting mix in the middle of the peat pots way too moist.  I did have have a little more success with the peat pots after putting about 20 or so holes in each one.  Too little, too late.  My opinion is that they still were not worth it.

Don't get discouraged.  There are many methods of rooting.  If you're not comfortable with one, move on and try the next one.  You're definitely on the right track but just have to dial-it-in to suit your personal lifestyle.  No matter what method you use, always remember that water is a killer.  Water sparingly and then only if necessary.  I started to water the cuttings by weight and my rooting success improved dramatically.  

I was talking with a friend about this subject and came up with this, "I find that there's a really fine line between too wet and too dry.  The younger the plant is, the finer that line is.  As the plant matures that line gets a little wider but is always still there.  I guess the true art to this is learning to walk that line.  Maybe I'll be there one day."
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brianm

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Posted Reply with quote  #16 
This is always a great topic and you have been given great advice. My nemesis right now is when i root directly into cups with coco what do i do when it dries out? It takes sometimes a month to happen and that's when i get into trouble by soaking the coco again. They may have small roots and not ready to transition into gallons.
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adipose

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Posted Reply with quote  #17 
Danny, thanks for the info.  I do have holes, but they are all in the bottom.  Is that not wise?  I have seen some pics (above) with holes in the side.
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Posted Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by adipose
Danny, thanks for the info.  I do have holes, but they are all in the bottom.  Is that not wise?  I have seen some pics (above) with holes in the side.


Put some holes in the sides too. Not much you can do about it now, but just remember for future plantings.
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pino

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Posted Reply with quote  #19 
Your barometer is showing only 75% humidity.  That seems low to me.
I have found if I can get the humidity in the 90% range they don't dry out as much and they seem to grow a little faster ( you still need a lot of patience).
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sal

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Posted Reply with quote  #20 


NYCfig I'm in a similar situation except I have my cuttings in Coir and they all have awesome roots. I want to transition them to cups. Can you explain how you water the cuttings by weight and what type of media do you use in the cups?
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Rewton

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Posted Reply with quote  #21 
Funny, the jiffy pot inside the plastic cup is one of the best all around methods (in my hands).  It just goes to show you how there is no one best method that works for everyone.  I never have a problem with the roots escaping from the jiffy pot.  I typically have potting mix (promix bx with a little extra perlite and pine fines mixed in) going about 1/3 of the way up the outside of the jiffy pot and add water whenever the jiffy pot color indicates it is dry.  To me the cuttings in post #1 look like they could use a little water.  I pot up as soon as I see roots visible along the wall of the plastic cup.  Usually they come through the bottom of the jiffy pot but sometimes they penetrate the wall of the jiffy pot.  Like others, I wouldn't worry about the amount of light until you get leaves.
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nycfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #22 
Steve - That's so true.  When using the Jiffy pots I felt like I was so careful and did everything right.  They just didn't work out for me.  I remember Pete (bullet08) saying that the company changed the peat pots and it was harder for the roots to penetrate. Never confirmed as it was a complete disaster for me and I abandoned the method.

Sal - Congrats on your awesome roots!  That's nice to hear.  When transitioning I started using longer cups.  The method worked so good that I now transition directly into 4x4 Steuwe treepots.

IMG_4936.JPG 

I feel it's better for the roots.  No science to back it up, I just noticed an improvement in the survival rate and overall health of the plants.  If I wasn't using the treepots and had the space I would use 32 oz. deli containers.  The media that's working for my rooted cuttings is 3/2, Fafard 52/sifted perlite.  You could use your favorite potting mix in place of Fafard 52.

I don't use a humidity chamber but I do use a heating mat and grow light as well as a scale.  For me, watering the rooted cuttings by weight dramatically improved success.  Purchased this scale from eBay.  It goes on sale from time to time and you can get it for a few bucks cheaper.  You don't have to use that one.  There are so many digital scales on eBay; just pick the one you like.  

Mix your potting medium and add water to make it moist, not soaking.  You should be able to squeeze a handful and still have it fall apart.  Pot your rooted cutting and weigh it using grams.  Record the 'wet' weight.  Wait about 3 days, weigh again and record that weight.  Wait another 3 days and record that weight.  Wait another 3 days, record the weight, then water the plant while it's on the scale.  Only water up to or just below your original starting weight.  Be careful not to overwater.  Repeat this cycle and soon you'll see that your rooted cutting will be taking up more water, quicker.  When it's working good I water every 3 days and that's it.  It's easy to work in your fertilizer and gnat control programs, too.

As an example, when using the Steuwe pots, a potted cutting will have a starting weight around 630 grams.  I'll wait until the weight is down to around 530 grams before watering.  Some will get there quicker than others.  I like to keep it on the drier side so I'm not worried if the weight goes down a little more.  After doing this over and over, I know that a healthy rooted cutting with 12-16 inches of new growth and lots of leaves can get down to 300-325 grams before it is starving for water.

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Posted Reply with quote  #23 
Danny, I use the tree pots too and have had good success with them.  As a general comment (a bit off topic for the thread - sorry), this is the time of year when I take advantage of outdoor warmth and humidity and do not propagate fig cuttings indoors.  What has worked really well is to use a variation of Harvey's method with the tree pots.  I put them into a bin without a lid in a shady spot along the house.  They are protected from rain so I can control the amount of water.  One you set the cuttings up this way all you need to do is add a small amount of water every 2-3 days.  I use the 5-1-1-1 mix with no lime or fertilizer and then add include a small amount of fertilizer in the water once you see leaves.  Once you see roots coming out of the bottom you pot them up to 1 gallon pots and transition to sun.
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Posted Reply with quote  #24 
Hey Dan! I definitely identify with some sluggish rooting:) This is my first season rooting a variety of cuttings and I have noticed what seems to be a faster rooting response from bumping up the humidity as Pino mentioned earlier. With a higher humidity I would also exchange air more often:)
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Posted Reply with quote  #25 
Danny, I also water based mostly on weight now, although I don't do it nearly as accurately as you do.  I agree 100% that it greatly decreases overwatering to do it that way.  I agree that the water weighs about as much as the pot + mix + cutting, so that's why it goes from 300+- grams bone dry to 600+- grams nice and moist.  Since that's a pretty wide range, I just lift it up and if it feels light, I water.  Also can sometimes see little droplets on the inside of the cup, that will give you some info as well. 

I think it's also important to have a fine potting mix that will wick water efficiently.  Should be pressed in the cup somewhat, not just left loose.  If it doesn't wick water it would be possible to have too much moisture at the bottom or top while being dry elsewhere.  If wick action is working effectively, moisture level will be fairly uniform throughout the majority of the cup.  For this reason I wouldn't use pine bark fines for rooting indoors, since they might not wick. 

Also, if you have mix that wicks, if you ever accidentally over-water, you could correct the situation by rolling up a paper towel (some good stuff, like bounty) and pushing it into the bottom of the cup, then ensuring this towel is firmly touching something outside of the cup that will absorb moisture, such as a towel.  Then turn on a fan to blow on it.  You get the idea.  The excess water will wick away over a few hours. 
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sal

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Posted Reply with quote  #26 
@nycfig

Simple and awesome idea to weight each cup.  I just ordered the same scale you linked in the post. ( I can always use another for my Wine Making) Thanks for the explanation of the whole process and the idea. I keep saying I'm going to take photos and still haven't .. This time I will so it might help another member some day.

@ Rob
I agree with the soil wicking because a few weeks ago I experimented with Foxfarm Ocean Forest soil and small wicking cups I made. All the water stayed at the bottom and it was a mess. I'm just happy I realized it before it was to late. Foxfarm Ocean Forest has zero wick ability.... I actually have to repot one of my small trees because the soil drys out everyday!!. The next soil I'm going to use is on this link AscPete gave me.

http://earthbox.com/approved-for-earthbox

The soil I'm going to use for cupping these rooted cuttings will either be the Foxfarm Happy Frog or Pro-Mix BX. I think the soils ability to wick the water is impotant so moisture content is uniform. This with ncyfig's idea I think I'll have success.
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Posted Reply with quote  #27 
For you guys interested in sip watering you may want to check out "wicking pots for african violets" and the "wicking soil mixes" on google.

Here is a video that shows a real good example of wicking african violets on a rather large scale at around 13 min on the video.

http://allaboutafricanviolets.com/tag/trailers/

I once grew and propagated many african violets using a setup like the one shown in the video.

A couple weeks ago when I removed my rooted fig cuttings from spagum moss and realized how fragile the new roots were, I imediately thought there has to be a better way of doing this.

I have cuttings on the way. I will put some of the cuttings in spagum moss again and some straight into clear plastic cups with a wick and reservoir system. I'll cut the sides off sandwich baggies to use for individual tents for the cutting above the soil line.

My last cuttings went from spagum moss to clear cups with 50/50 perlite/MG potting soil and that worked for me. The clear cups had four 1/4" holes burned in the sides at the bottom for drainage.
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Posted Reply with quote  #28 
I pot my cuttings in plastic solo cups. I buy 11x16" plastic tubs from Wal-Mart and leave the lid ajar. I melt or stab 3 or four 1/4" holes in bottom of cups before adding dirt. I put it over a heat mat with a grow light over them I water by putting water in bottom of tub next to cups.
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Posted Reply with quote  #29 
I tried once in pure perlite. It molded in two weeks. Disaster.
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Posted Reply with quote  #30 
Dan - Sorry this is getting a little off-topic.  I do believe it has some relevance but if you wish it moved to a different thread please say so.  Thanks.  :)

Steve - I also do my rooting outside this time of year but do not keep them in the shade. Too much transitioning to do.  I've been having good luck in this 'cuttings locker' that I built.

IMG_4937.JPG IMG_4938.JPG 

The hinged lid is attached to an automatic vent opener.  When the temperature rises, the lid opens automatically.  Skinned with reinforced plastic.  Media is 2/1, Pro-Mix/sifted perlite.

Rob - I use to water the same as you and I was still getting poor results.  I'm in the process of teaching myself to 'feel' the weight now.  Look at the 2nd pic above.  They're all rooted cuttings that were potted at different times since 04/09 (Rooting started on 03/30).  I forced myself not to use the scale to water any of them.  The 51 pots on the right are at various stages of living (green buds showing and putting on new growth, leafing out nicely) and the 26 pots on the left (you can't see 2 of them in the pic as they're off more to the left) are at various stages of dying (no activity or budding/leafing activity that has stopped and died).  Just before writing this I went into the locker and sorted all the pots on the left.  Removed and tossed 14 as they were completely dead from overwatering.  The pots were heavy with water and the cuttings were black and rotted.  10 others are still alive and look somewhat viable.  2 (you can't see them in the pic as they're off more to the left) were moved to the right as they had beautiful green leafy growth below the soil.  Late yesterday afternoon, after checking the cuttings that are rooting indoors I added another 5 to the right side.  This is what the locker looks like now:

IMG_4940.JPG 

So, since starting all of this, I removed an additional 5 as dead which brings the death toll to 19.  As of today there are 68 in various stages of living which brings my success ratio around 75% or so.  When using the scale I am at 98% or so success.  I've learned a lot about watering with the use of a scale and for me this is a major improvement over killing almost everything 2 years ago.  

Have about 50 more cuttings cooking right now.  Going to start about 50 more over the next few weeks.  Here's to hoping that my ratio goes up.  :)

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Posted Reply with quote  #31 
Have at it, I am fine with this thread going off the rails :)
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