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Strains

I am curious what people think about why there are different strains in some varieties of figs.  Figs are propagated asexually by cuttings.  That means that every Celeste should be identical to every other Celeste.  Every Black Mission should be identical to every other Black Mission.  Every Brown Turkey should be identical to every other Brown Turkey.  But instead different strains seem to have developed within these varieties over time.  Why is that?

Sometimes figs are mislabeled or misnamed and that explains it.  But other times it seems like slight differences emerge in different lines within a variety.  Isn't that why there are so many Celeste strains that are all just a little different?  How does that happen with plant tissue that is supposed to be identical?  Does that happen from mutations in the DNA?  Or does that happen because of changes in gene expression over time, possibly triggered by local environmental factors?  Does something else explain it?

I'm not too informed in this area, but I am definitely curious about it.  If anyone has any info about this stuff please explain.

Thanks guys.

Joe,



Plants have the ability to sometimes alter, mutate the sequences of their DNA and this is where the variations come from.   Cloned plants mutate much more often than was originally thought but  most of the time it is a small unnoticeable changes.   Sometimes but very rarely the change is huge.  I am not knowledgeable enough yet on figs to show an example though their must be many.  I could point you to google images of Bambusa multiplex and then Alphonse Karr, they are the same plant, or were,  that was a one step mutation and resulted in a vastly different looking plant.   I grow a lot of it and the strange thing is it can change back:)  I have a clump of Alphonse Karr that has now thrown out a couple of reverted normal colored culms.  

Far as why this happens......that is still one of those questions without an answer. 

great question!

I think there are two possible reasons. As WillsC says, mutation causing slight genetic drift. Think of Panachee and the fig called 'Reverse' that Jon sells - the one without the stripes. That is an obvious mutation, or perhaps reversal of a mutation. (Chimera)

A second reason could be that figs have been around for a very long time in their natural environments/places of origin. Places where there is the wasp, places where viable seeds are formed and plants grown from seeds. So in a natural area, there might be several figs very close to one another but not the result of cuttings having been grown, but very closely related figs producing off-spring via seed. And then various of these being propagated via cuttings, yet all having the same name. Think of some of the similarities among the Mt Etna type figs. Just a guess.

It is quite apparent that figs are not that stable genetically throughout the plant.  Make enough serial cuttings from one variety, and you'll wind up with slightly different strains over the generations.  I definitely have at least one branch on my Petite Negri that consistently delivers slightly different fruit.

On the other hand, a more interesting question would be to ask whether there are different strains of recent breeds like Conadria or Excel.

Something else to consider is that some strains have deseases and viruses and others don't.  

Still looking for a FMV free strain of Black Mission by the way LOL.

<edit:  Gina's second case is the central idea to explain this.  Here's a slightly more detailed explanation:  >

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrozenJoe
Figs are propagated asexually by cuttings.  That means that every Celeste should be identical to every other Celeste.  Every Black Mission should be identical to every other Black Mission.  Every Brown Turkey should be identical to every other Brown Turkey.  But instead different strains seem to have developed within these varieties over time.  Why is that?


It's because your first statement, though true, is also not the whole story.  Figs are not propagated only by asexual means!  Consequently your next three statements are false.  It's true that figs are propagated asexually.  It's also true that figs are propagated sexually.  Why would you think that every Celeste is a clone of every other Celeste?  That is not the case.  Consider:  If a Celeste variety can arise from a sexual reproduction (as undoubtedly happened at some point), then why would you want to assume that that event happened only once in the history of the earth?  And that every Celeste on earth was reproduced asexually from that one original Celeste?  That would be the only way for every Celeste to be genetically identical to every other Celeste.  

This is just basic biology and genetics.  Even if other Celestes had the same two parents, they would be siblings (not necessarily clones).  My sister and I have the same two parents, yet we are not clones of each other.  We may be quite similar genetically (as you'd expect from us having the same two parents), but we're certainly not clones of each other genetically.  Neither are any of my brothers clones of me  (I have no identical twin or triplet).  So even if the first Celestes had the same parents, they would be different.  So even from a single pair of parents (if all Celestes were genetically siblings of each other), there would be different strains of Celeste (clones of the different siblings).  But it is almost certainly more complicated than that... what if each of the two parents had siblings, or cousins, or distant cousins?  Some of their offspring would match the condition of being "Celeste" as well.  So cousins of Celeste can be Celeste.  If you go back in the ancestral chaining further, it could be second-cousins, third-cousins, etc.   So the right way to consider what is a "Celeste" is that it is some kind of extended family (genetically speaking anyway).  Probably a pretty broadly extended family, beyond what you might consider familially related in the human analogy.  (Do you consider your 47th cousin your cousin?  Odds are you don't know their names, because human record-keeping doesn't typically extend back that far in ancestry.  But that doesn't mean that there isn't someone out there who is your 47th cousin).

Why do people refer to these as "strains"?  It's just recognizing that there are variations in the individual specimens within a variety.  They're close enough to be both recognizable as "Celeste", but different enough in their individual characteristics that it's useful to differentiate them if you care about those particular characteristics.

I hope this helps.  

Mike   central NY state, zone 5

p.s.  Though all that's necessary to understand the above is the fact that figs are propagated both sexually and asexually, it also turns out that the particulars of sexual reproduction in figs is somewhat unusual.  If you want to understand that, there are lots of references in Jon's reference section on the site.  There's also a brief chapter (just a couple of pages) in Ray Givan's booklet.  I think his chapter is called "The wierd sex life of figs" or something like that.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.  That helps me understand all this a little bit better.

Gina, you mentioned the Mt. Etna type figs as an example.  Those figs are what got me thinking about this topic to begin with.  There is Hardy Chicago, Abruzzi, Sal's EL, Dark Portuguese, (Marseilles VS ?) and several unknowns that all seem to be very similar with slight variations.  The leaves and fruit are all almost identical.  These figs have all been referred to as Mt. Etna type figs in recent years, mostly because of Maggie (Italiangirl74) who posted a few years back that Hardy Chicago is the same as a Sicilian fig called Mongibello that grows wild in the higher elevations around Mt. Etna in Sicily.

But Hardy Chicago has also been identified as a synonym for Italian Everbearing.  Ray Givan identifies Hardy Chicago as the same variety as Italian Everbearing in The New Fig Booklet.  Bob Harper (robertharper) wrote last year that Hardy Chicago is a strain of Italian Everbearing.  He wrote that when Hardy Chicago became a sought after fig many nurseries sold Italian Everbearing trees as Hardy Chicago, and that explains why there are different strains of Hardy Chicago in circulation: there are different strains of Hardy Chicago because there were actually different strains of Italian Everbearing around and they all got labeled as Hardy Chicago when Hardy Chicago became popular.

Here are links to the posts I just referred to:
http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/calling-me-a-liar-4782455? (Maggie talks about Hardy Chicago)
http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/Long-Daout-cold-hardy-5891928 (Bob talks about Hardy Chicago)

All this still confuses me.  But I think that a fig like Hardy Chicago is probably a good example to use when thinking about the topic of strains.  A lot of people from Sicily brought this fig to America back in the day when they immigrated here.  They recognized that it was a good fig and that it could handle cooler temperatures.  It has been called many different things over the years, including Italian Everbearing (that was probably the most common name for this fig in America back in the pre-internet days).  Is it one variety that is just diverse in the characteristics that it expresses?  Or are there a bunch of closely related but genetically distinct varieties that all come from the same place and all look almost the same?  I'm not sure which it is.  Maybe one day as more DNA testing is done the answer will become more clear.

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