In this tread I will be discussing the negative roles that condensation, osmosis, and carbon dioxide play in the rooting of fig cuttings when using "indoor" rooting methods. My intent is to edit and add to this tread as I have time......
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Changes in temperature in the rooting environment can cause "ultra pure" condensation to form on your cuttings. That moisture can then react with the "natural" carbon dioxide that forms from the biochemical rooting process. Cuttings need Oxygen to form roots and when roots are forming they CREATE Carbon Dioxide in the chemical reaction. Carbon dioxide is an acid gas. Since any moisture that forms from condensation is so chemically pure.....when it reacts with carbon dioxide it forms a low pH acidic coating liquid that can damage newly formed (unhardened) roots and/or any opening buds on your cuttings. In a closed environment this can lead to damaged roots and damage to new tender green growth which in turn leads to rot and molding issues.

FYI..........When you find that your newly potted rooted cuttings dies on you for no apparent reason........in most cases, it died because of this carbon dioxide mechanism. People need to know this and it can be prevented.  I will continue a discussion in this thread on how carbon dioxide affects rooting when I get a chance.  Temperature stabilization is easy to attain and prevents acidic carbon dioxide problems when using indoor rooting methods.  Understand the chemistry involved and you can get better results using very simple rooting techniques........much more on this later. 

Is this the science behind having an airy soil mix ( perlite/soil)?

The exchange of oxygen and co2- allowing one to enter and the other to escape- almost as if breathing ourselves.

The roots essentially suffocate, choking off nutrients to the cutting?

The soil mix I'm using has dolomite limestone and I assume then this is helping to reduce the acid produced by the exchange of CO2.

The soil, along with my high volume of perlite has allowed me so far to lose no more than 1 or 2 so far.( out of 80).-Started in Jan.

Most of the roots have been fat and growing many laterals.

I do have to say: I believe I used many of your suggestions on the rooting process, so being new they have led me in the right direction.
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Dominick
Zone 6a-MA

Yes, certain chemicals in your rooting mix and/or your potting mix can help. Roots will use oxygen to form new roots.....in the very process they will form carbon dioxide gas. If that carbon dioxide gas is not removed either chemically or thru venting.......it can be damaging both to newly formed "unhardened" roots and "unhardened" tiny leaves. Also, it can be harmful to larger plants which are growing new roots.

Unless you somehow remove the carbon dioxide from the mix of new starts, oxygen CANNOT move in like it is supposed to.......and this will cause the roots to suffocate. The plant will start to wilt because the roots cannot send up enough water to its stem and leaves. Upon seeing the "wilting" many rooters just add more water in response to seeing the wilting......WHICH IS THE WRONG THING TO DO!!!

Dan
Semper Fi-cus.

So the best thing to do is provide ventilation of sort in a high humidity environment, and wash the condensation away or pour it off then add fresh water to rooting media as needed?

stagnant water is one of many enemies.  stagnant water produces organisms (like algae) that become food for mold.

So since CO2 is more dense than air should I drill some holes in my rooting tub for it to drain, or use H2O2? You can't scare us all like this and then not spill the beans!

Have you taken the Ph of these drops? Carbonic acid is weak, rainwater would be more acidic because of the sulfur I believe.
And what about the O2 that the leaves are transpiring, shouldn't there be more of that than CO2 with adequate lighting? The plants are using CO2 to grow after all.

I am not talking about stagnant water but someting that is completely different and damaging to the fig "rooting process". What I will discuss is completely new information.

Not all water is the same.  Tap water is chemically very different than condensation water. Water or moisture that forms through condensation is "ultra pure" water......which means that it can cause problems when it contacts carbon dioxide gas. It is also damaging through osmosis reactions. These two little understood mechanisms can lead to rot and mold issues...... and even to dying new starts. Understanding these two "new" rooting problems has helped me attain a very high sucess rate of turning fig twigs into actual trees that are ready to be planted in the ground.

I really do not want to get into all of this right now as it will take quite a bit of writing on my part to teach others about these parameters without causing confusion.


It is very important for "INDOOR" rooting methods to recognize that plain old VENTING is very important during the entire rooting process........not only for  providing necesary oxygen "into" the rooting zone......but MORE IMPORTANTLY for actually removing potentially damaging carbon dioxide "FROM" the rooting zone. Also, methods that utilize rooting at "even temperataures" WILL PREVENT damaging condensate from forming in the first place. Once your rooted cuttings have completely harden off, these problems will go away. Lots more later........

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

Semper Fi-cus to you too, Dan,

What you are saying sounds simple to me.  Condensate=BAD water too pure

Ventilation=GOOD air exchange

Keep as even a temperature as possible=Less chance of harmful condensation, which=more living cuttings.

The rest is very interesting--The why of it all.

Does it help to have vent holes drilled into the bottom of the large containers that hold the cups with the cuttings?  Not necessarily a lot of holes, but some?

Thanks,

noss

"Does it help to have vent holes drilled into the bottom of the large containers that hold the cups with the cuttings?  Not necessarily a lot of holes, but some?"

No holes in the large container.....just a "tiny" crack at the corners formed by placing the lid at a slight angle. The large  container is only for humidity control. However, do drill some holes in the bottom and side of the rooting cups. Putting holes on the side of the cups is especially important when rooting in taller cups. PUT THOSE CUPS ON A RAISED RACK for better "ventillation".....not for water drainage.  Be sure to open and vent that large container daily for a good air exchange........it adds oxygen, removes carbon dioxide, and stabilizes humidity levels inside of the container.

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

I don't know if this is off topic but how is it that cuttings started in a vase of water for certain cultivars root more efficiently than the same cuttings started using other methods?

I agree with you Ed. A twig in clean water will have dissolved oxygen availble to it for the rooting process. However, the roots that will form are water roots that will have to change their job function when the cutting is planted into another solid mix. Carbon dioxide is not an issue while the cutting is in vase of water. And it is not an issue with mist rooting methods.

I have not verified this for myself.....that those that use "rain water" seem to have a higher success rate that those that use "tap water" when water rooting.  One day I will experiment with this........

Dan
Semper Fi-cus 

Hi Dan,
Since CO2 is heavier than air will it accumulate at the bottom of the large container?
 
Just curious.

It seems that the only potting soils available are those with fertilizer.   My LSU Purple fig cutting has already rooted wrapped in paper towels and inserted into a plastic zip loc bag.   Will the potting soils with fertilizer inhibit continued root development?  I would rather not plant this cutting in the ground just yet since it is so small and could be run over with a lawn mower.

If you can find Fafard potting mixes, the ones I've gotten don't contain fertilizers.  I know what you mean when you say that about the potting mixes.

noss

Frey Bros. is fert free Sweeney Seeds sells it around here. Also look for "seed starting mix". Or you can also leech some of the fertilizer out of potting mix by filling a large pot with the mix, wet, wait a few minutes and water really well for a long time. Or just wet it and leave it out during a good rain. Spread out to dry. Miracle grow mix is straight garbage, I would rather use just about anything else including monkeyballs and shredded newspaper, bought some when I was desperate and used it as mulch instead after I saw what was inside the bag.

Also, might using a more coarse mix help with CO2? more air spaces, faster drying time etc. I'm now looking for a suitable tube to fit on my shopvac to suck the air out of cuttings in Jon bags in assembly line fashion.

In my area, some of the better nurseries make their own garden mix. And one can buy the stuff pretty cheap. $30 fills the back of my small pickup truck. It is usually high in pine bark bits.

Yes, carbon dioxide is heavier than air and can accumulate at the bottom of a container.  Carbon dioxide is a by product of your cuttings using the stored energy reserves within the cutting to form those growing roots.  New roots take in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide..........which is completely opposite of leaves which take in carbon dioxide and breathe out oxygen.  Once roots get harden off, carbon dioxide acidification and carbon dioxide asphyxiation becomes less of an issue. Just like, once leaves get harden off, excess sun becomes less of an issue.

If carbon dioxide is not removed, it will smother your cutting as it is developing those new tender roots. Get that bad gas out of there using vent holes on sides and bottom of your container, use an airy mix , and put the container on a mesh wire rack. That rack is important to obtain good VENTILATION. Keep in mind that the rate at which roots grow on your cuttings is a function of how much venting takes place in the rooting zone. If you don't see roots for a long time.....it is likely because not enough air is reaching the rooting zone of your cutting.

Here's another one of my secrets that I am choosing to reveal for the very first time:

Should you ever see a newly transplanted start go limp on you for no apparent reason......VENT IT by blowing some air INTO THE ROOTING MIX. DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY ADD WATER thinking it needs water. Give it some ventilation as your plant is likely smothering. 

FYI, I have saved some dying newly started plants by using an aquarium air pump to force air into the potting mix. I place the same sized pot (or cup) over the rooted cuttings that was failing and connected an air line into the two containers which I taped together. Again, temperature stabilization can be very important too dependant upon your particular rooting method.


Earlier, in another thread, I had revealed another one of my secrets:

Use peat cups (not expandable peat disks) inside of plastic cups when rooting your very rare cuttings. It is almost impossible to lose that cutting once you see roots emerge from the peat pot. This technique vents the rooting zone real well and also automatically wicks excessive moisture (perched moisture) from the rooting mix. Try it and I guarantee that you will luv it for those RARE cuttings that you do not want to lose.

And by all means use Fertilome's UPM if you can find it. I said it many times before and I will say it again. It is a SUPERIOR product for rooting fig twigs. This product is especially designed for rooting cuttings........it has special proprietary chemicals inside of that mix that optimizes rooting.....including dealing with Carbon Dioxide issues during the early stages of rooting.

  
Dan
Semper Fi-cus

Dan,

I just got 15ea. 25qt. size bags of the Fertilome UPM from my uncles landscaping business.

He ( his son ) only took $100 for them. That's about his cost for a small independant business.

He is ordering me a pallet of the larger bags ( 3cu. ft. ). He said they come 30 to a pallet. I'm thinking it's a half pallet.

I just have to sit down and read everything you have to say. Timing timing timing! No time.

Dan,

As for venting. Are you saying to stick a straw into the soil and blow into it?

I only blow air into a cup or container when I see that it is wilting. That is only a rescue procedure.......when you see one of your new plants failing. Place another cup over the cup with the wilting plant. Tape the two together. Poke a hole in the top cup to allow an air tube to enter into the space. Tape some of the holes in the bottom cup. Turn on the air pump and this will force air thru the rooting mix in the bottom cup. Remove and tape other holes in the bottom cup to ensure all of the rooting zone is vented. An air compressor can be used too, if you cut back on the air pressure.

Rafed,

Any chance a fellow Mi fig-nut can get one or two of those bags?

  Let me know price and timeframe, if yes. 

We've got to meet this summer....

~Chills

this might sounds like a crazy overkill but what about using pure O2 from a medical tank or these personal O2 sprays? will that expedite rooting even more?

Dan,

Would a bicycle pump suffice for getting oxygen into the root zone?  Or one of the electric tire pumps for auto tires?

noss

If you are attempting to save a dying new start..... any source of air through the rooting zone can be helpful. Pure oxygen is not needed.  The intent is to displace any pockets of carbon dioxide that are trapped inside of the rooting mix. That trapped CO2 gas can suffocate your new start by preventing new oxygen from getting in.  Getting carbon dioxide out of there (by displacement with new fresh air) is what you want to do.  That rooting zone needs to be able to breathe.......where new air goes in and carbon dioxide goes out.

If you have adequate ventilation holes in your rooting cups or containers, are using an airy rooting mix, and have them on a wire rack......this is usually not a problem. If you find that you are losing many for no apparent reason......give it some consideration that it might be due to suffocation and proceed accordingly.  If you find your cuttings are taking long to root....make sure that you are doing things that will give them enough air. Remember that newly forming roots need oxygen from the air. They will use the oxygen from the air in order to convert the stored carbohydrates and sugars (energy) that is inside of your cuttings to form new roots.  During this rooting process, carbon dioxide gas is produced and needs to be vented away. Air must be able to go in and carbon dioxide must be able to move out. Again, this becomes less of an issue and consern once the roots and leaves of your new plants have harden off.

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

Good info. I have added a few more side holes to my potting cups. Thanks to Dan for starting this thread and sharing his experiences.

When I was raising and showing Yorkies, if I needed to send one of the girls to be bred, via plane, we had to make sure there was nothing else being shipped with dry ice because it would suffocate the little dogs because it's heavier and settled on the floor of the plane.  It stands to reason that the same would happen to plants if the roots need oxygen, but don't get it.

noss