Do I need both, or are they about the same?

They are not the same.  The only one I can speak for on taste is the bordeaux and it's the best tasting fig that I have. I bought it from edible landscapes.

I have VdB from El and Petit Negri from Raintree, both new this year.

By the size of the PN, I don't think its going to be small. Some say it is not true to name. Same on the VdB. Differing opinions.

We will see in a few yrs.

I'll get in trouble, but they are similar enough. If you want 2 different figs, buy one of these, and then something else. I have had 2 PN's - one was quite dwarf, and the other grew like a weed. I am confident that both have been interchanged in the nursery trade, for a long enough time that on any given day that you buy them they might be the same variety, or might not.

Jon, I started a test.  Last Fall I purchase around 6 VdB and 2 PN.  I have my VdBs all in containters....some are 3 yrs old and some are just 1 year old.  I planted my PN in the ground and left my VdBs all in pots.  As of yesterday, my PN is still the same height BUT it has several large figs on it.  Every VdB have exactly the same size tiny pea size figs on them and is growing like a weed!  All were fertilized the same and all came from the same source Raintree Nursery. 

So, based on my results:  they are NOT the same tree.  However, according to the leaf pattern, they look like the same tree but the leaves on my PN are huge!  I don't think it matters if I planted my VdB in the ground either.  cheers,

Phew! I hate to have 2 of the same tree at this point.

I dare to throw negronne into this group.  I say all are very similar, but slightly different.  What's the worst that could happen?  You get 2 great figs 

Yeah thats the problem. Different trees with different names but only the slightest difference.

Dennis although both my VDB & PN are in Pots my leaves are reversed PN has small leaves while vdb has big leaves. Both are from EL and both in their second season, The PN is a ridiculously slow grower more spreading while the vdb grew like a weed and upright. Neither one grew any figs in their first season.

Also have a vdb from Adriano that is in its 3rd season now and it too is a vigorous grower.

Hopefully in the next 2 season's they will ripen figs so I can compare, but right now I would be leaning towards similar but not exactly the same.

Oh another thing I remembered is that the PN need more frequent waterings compared to vdb, I litteraly had to water it in the morning and when I got home from work leaves would be drooping already and have to water again and both were in 3G pots.

GO ahead Ed!  Add Negronne in the mix!  Go ahead!  Do it!  :)

I've asked this question to a few members via email.  So, guess what?  I knew Negroone pop up.  Negronne and PN MAY NOT be the same fig.  Both my Negronne and PN are planted in ground.  Both are the same age, height and size.  HOWEVER......the fruit on my Negornne is half the size of the fruit on my PN.  I'll post some pics later on this evening.  I think all 3 are not the same fig.  More to come!  cheers

Does that mean that black jack is sport of the vdb as well?

Black Jack is more closely related to Brown Turkey. Can't remember if the DNA at USDA/UC Davis concurred.

Dennis, my point was not that they were the same.

IMO the fruits of VdB, Negronne, PN, Vista, and probably some others, such as Beer's Black, etc. are all similar, if not identical. They were probably all distinct at one time, but have probably ALL been sold under ALL of those names, so that when you buy one today, regardless of the name on the tag, it could well be any of those varieties, depending on which nursery you purchased from, and where they got their cuttings that year. This is in agreement with my own observation that the two PNs that I have behave very differently.

Some nurseries have their own cuttings to propagate from (this is what I do), and others get their cuttings from outside sources (I get requests from time to time for a 1000 or 10,000 cuttings of a some variety). I do not know which nurseries (other than my own) use their own cuttings and which outsource, Outsourcing means that you lose control over what you are actually selling, and what you are selling can change from year to year depending on where the cuttings came from, and what they actually sent you.

I have seen "Panache" trees at HD from a local commercial nursery that had no stripes in the wood, and no stripes on the fruit (already on the tree), but were labeled as Panache, with a nice picture of striped fruit.

Finally, in you have space for a limited number of trees, and since these are all very similar, if you want variety, I would choose one of these and then something else for greater variety.

The watering thing made my decision.  I am a very lazy gardener.

Here is the DNA Thread

Based on what I found interesting, it looked like Vista, Violette de Bordeaux, and Beers Black were genetically identical. 

The other thing I found interesting.... in the relationship chart, these three figs were closely related to each other (if not nearly identical) :

Sal's (DFIC 243)
Dark #1 Portuguese
Abruzzi

And this group of six were also closely related to each other (if not exactly the same)

Brown Turkey
California Brown Turkey
Walker
Braun Turkey
Black Jack
Blue Giant

Braun Turkey? Is that the phonetic way people in South Boston and Dorchester say Brown Turkey!  Haha

"braun" in German translates to "brown" in English.   bite your tongue ;)

Petit Negri and VdB are different figs.  There has been studies on their morphology.  They are classified as different figs.

George

This is a good thread!! Thank you for the discussion!  No worries Jon.  I'm not arguring but after I read your comment Jon....I see your point.  I think we all think of nurseries as "concrete written in blood true sources" to whatever they sell, at least I do.  But anyone can be a certified nursery!  :)  I started getting involved in the nursery business a few months ago by visiting them and asking for their source of fig trees.  Like you said Jon, they get a boat load of cuttings and a middle man propagates them and ships them to them when they are ready to sell.  I have 2 nurseries near me.  Both are clueless on fig trees and make up words trying to describe them.  One get their trees from Monrovia and the other has just plan ole "Fig trees" which are Southern Brown Turkey or Celeste.  I just want to know if they truly know what they are selling and they do not.  We have become the true researchers and sources of figs and we should continue this education process.  So, those of you like Dan, Herman, Jon, Maggie, Bass and others please document your figs and events.  I've started collecting data on what I have and my events, weather, fertilizer, watering, soil etc.

I guess it really is a toss up when you buy a particular fig tree from any nursey.  You won't know what you have until the tree grows and starts to develop leaves and fruit.  Which is why we really should buy from  valid sources of figs unless you just don't care.  But, major nurseries do make honest mistakes. 

I like to believe and trust true nurseries like Raintree, One Green World, Petal from the Past, Durio, and Hidden Springs to name a few.  It boggles my mind to think that PN, VdB, Negronne, Vista, Beer's Black, and God knows what else are the similar.  I don't have a Beer's Black or Vista but I do have several Black Mission which some say are the same as Vista and Beer's Black.  I guess DNA is the only thing that proves what is what.  Thank God for DNA.  I think the best we do is just put figs in classifications.  Ether way, I love figs.  This is a good thread.  I will be looking to get my hands on some Beer's Black and Vista cuttings this Fall.  thanks

Dennis, google Edible Landscaping in Afton, VA, and if you visit God's University in VA, you can go to the nursery.  Wonderful people who will give you a fascinating tour.

Forgot to mention EL in that mix of great nurseries.  I've purchased a lot of trees from them in the past especially VdB.  thanks.

Jon, I have one of those unstriped Panachee's from HD! Darn their supplier anyway. I finally did get a real Panachee from a local nursery. It was the first fig I planted in-ground. I kept the HD tree because the fruit was actually quite wonderful, whatever it is...
Sue

Could that unstriped Panachee be a Reverse that came off of it and they failed to recognize the sport and just kept the name, regardless?

I thought of that but what are the chances of that vs a mis-marked tree? I'll know better when it once again fruits. I can then compare leaves, fruit and flavor to the known Panachee. Time will tell...

Mis-Marked 99%

Reverse 0%

Other 1%