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What do you think about "open source seeds"?

I'm glad  so many of us on here are learning to grow our own food. We are looking into growing proteins next year. Logistics are a bit daunting  but I'm looking at chickens and rabbits.

Pete; wishful thinking got Obama the Nobel Peace Prize...didn't pan out.  Michael; lovely photos, thanks. My 2 cents- the Pentagon's own science team concluded that man is causing much of the climate change several years ago. They have been preparing for it for a long while already. Geoengineering of the upper atmosphere has been going on for years, through the Air Force and Navy. Just look at  geoengineeringwatch.org  No one has all of the answers, maybe the East Coast gets longer, colder winters, and the West Coast hardly gets winter at all. One thing is certain, we'll find out.

Thanks Michael.  Thing is, the planet is still globally warming.  People have been saying that the Earth stopped warming because the average atmospheric temperature has kind of plateaued...the so called "pause".  This is due to a normal shift in ocean currents that has brought deep cold Pacific water to the surface where it can pull heat from the atmosphere and sink it into the depths.  The specific heat of air (energy required to change temperature by a degree) is dwarfed by the specific heat of water and we live in a water world.  If you want to know what's happening on the Earth you need to look at the overall average temperature of our oceans.  Sounds hard to do, but really all you need to do is monitor sea level.  As the water warms it expands and sea level goes up.  This data has been measured by satellite for the entire time that we've had our so called "pause" in temperature rise and you can see that the planet has not stopped warming at all...just a steady rise.  (see chart of sea level rise below and at the University of Colorado's site:  http://sealevel.colorado.edu/  )   When the ocean current cycle shifts again the air temps will continue their climb. 
global sea level rise satelite data.png 

Pete, there will always be people who fudge data, but most don't and the main story remains the same.  I really wish this wasn't true, but it's really very clear when you ignore all the politics and just look at the overall system dynamics.  In fact the CO2 relationship with planetary heating was understood back in the late 1800s when Svante Arrhenius (of the Arrhenius Equation fame...at least famous to us chemistry geeks) calculated how CO2 emissions may be able to keep humanity from slipping back into the next ice age.  If we could gain control of our runaway emissions maybe we could use it that way.

Anyhow...it's a good idea for us all to be good edible landscapers and to understand how the soil food web works to create health for plants and us.  If anyone is interested in this please read the excellent book "Teaming with Microbes".  Just imagine how the 10s of thousands of microbial species in a teaspoon of rich soil interact together and with our plants to create reality for our landscapes and our planet.  The GMO mindset comes largely out of ignorance regarding how the world's creatures have evolved and how a real food system works.  It's mostly just about how to farm without labor so that profits are maximized.  Maximizing return for labor is good, but not at the expense of our futures.  I'm a permaculture fan.  Why not step out your door into a diverse edible landscape?  Garden of Eden 2.0.


Pete,
No doubt things will hit the crapper. Our estimate of the earth's carrying capacity is way off. Billions will die but they won't die suddenly. All it would take though is a real nasty like ebola with a much longer incubation period so it can spread. Right now it's a bit self-limiting. Our behavior is twisted as crowding and being out of touch with nature causes crazy behavior. If you get a chance read The Hot Zone. It is about an Ebola out break in Northern Virginia. It was in their (Hazelton) monkey lab. I used to buy mice and rats from them --scary! Very fast read and it has the best theory of how aids got started I've ever read.
If a small percentage of scientists fudge data it doesn't invalidate the truth - there are dishonest folks everywhere - some desperate for grant money, etc. True science is about finding truth and that path is full of obstacles both from within and without.
Pete, I also do not understand why Obama got the peace prize.

Tami,
If you do bunnies you'll have the best natural fertilizer there is. I use bunny poo on everything. I just ordered another 10 feed bags full.

Gary,
Your welcome. It is never talked about but we do have a very active program to influence - if not control and weaponize the weather. Nothing is sacred.

Tami, chickens are fun.  Look into integrating chickens with composting systems.  Geoff Lawton has some cool videos you can find on his website regarding this.  The chickens feed off from and help work the compost. 
http://www.geofflawton.com/fe/64322-chicken-tractor-on-steroids
http://www.geofflawton.com/fe/59960-feed-chickens-without-grain

Pete/Michael, that makes 3 of us (and many millions more) that don't understand how Obama got the peace prize.  Totally devalued the Nobel Prize to me.  So many people who truly deserved it.

I know right Michael? Best part is...I can stop buying the poo AND eat the maker.

Thanks Greg for the links. I would have to make quite a drive to get GMO free chicken feed.

GregMartin,
thx - good info.
I wonder how many of the islands in the south pacific will be under water in 10 years. I've been told by friends that several of the ones I visited in '04 have lost their beaches completely. Can you imagine these poor people who have not created this problem are now loosing their homes and home lands possibly forever. It's bad enough that the freighters dump their garbage in their waters as they have no means to police this and the pet shop suppliers strip the fish from their coral reefs and the big factory fishing ships steal the schools of fish they used to exist on. Geeez, these people are so screwed it's amazing. 

I'm hoping in 10 years I can still have figs without having to pay Monsanto for dirt. One good thing about figs is the industry is so small Monsanto probably has us way down the list of things to grab up and own. Unless they find a way to patent figs. Besides Sequoia I wonder how many figs are patented. hmm . . .

My garden will be much smaller this year as I don't have time to redo the fencing and the deer are winning but my 42 bucks for seeds did go to Baker Creek earlier today.

Alanmercieca,
Are their f4f members who fertilize their figs here on the east coast? Are there members who are actively trying to breed new fig varieties? 
How hard is it to do the job the fig wasp does?

alanmercieca,
oops -- thanks for answering but I meant to ask about pollination. I stuck fertilize where I meant pollinate. sorry.
You did answer part of my question though.
btw - I fertilize like crazy as I grow only in pots and I water a lot. I try and off set the fact that I end up leaching mico-nutrients and just about everything the plants need out and need to replenish. My favorite fertilizer - by far - is bunny poo.


alanmercieca,
Can you tell me who those folks are? I'm interested how they would do that and I guess it would have to be done in a closed system or are they planning to try and establish them there? Very interesting.


I would guess a closed system as they would not likely survive here

The idea that GMO food will be needed to prevent starvation is not really a good way of thinking about the problem.
For all we have done is made thing worse in many ways.
A long time ago a professor of mine went to hear a scientist who spoke on his breeding program designed improve rice productivity by 20%.
This was to help a population which was on the brink of starving but would be fine if they had more rice.  The scientist was successful and went onto work on more projects. The professor then asked the important question.  What did the population in that area do.  Of course, it grew by 20% and now there were now more people on the brink of starvation.  When pushed the scientist said "That is not my problem.  I did my job by getting more rice to grow in the same area."
What even worse is sometimes those more productive crops strip the soil faster than the original so after a few years the production crashes and things go from bad to worse.
Much of the GMO has been geared to tolerance to herbicides and specifically to herbicides that the suppliers of GMO seeds sell.   Not that I am suggesting any kind of a connection...

alanmercieca,
Thank you very much for that link. Interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by javajunkie
WOW Mike, I try to do as much as I can for the planet but sorry to tell you, I can't, like some people apparently can, do it full time to the exclusion of all else which is what you're suggesting it would require. How many man hours to find out if my clothing is GMO free? TONS...ya know why? Company behind the whole thing managed to get a law passed that prohibits the mention of their name publicly in reference to GMO's.

Funny...GMO's are illegal in most european countries if not all but then again they have always been pro healthy population.

Just curious, do you belong to PETA as well?

Bob, that's really really cool.


JJ, I know that sounded critical and I'm sorry for that. thatI don't mean it as a criticism just merely want to point out how we contribute to the creation of this hell the 0.00001% are making for us and our descendants.

I know it takes work to accomplish these things but it isn't as hard as you think and more worth while than we will ever know. As long as we financially support these companies we will, or at least the the next generations, will reap what we sow. Much of the work has already been done. A good place to start, if there's a "smart" phone in your family is the buycott app.

As to PETA I'm not a member of anything but I'm not into cruelty to animals or other humans either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schaplin
The idea that GMO food will be needed to prevent starvation is not really a good way of thinking about the problem.




It's much much worse than not good, it's completely inaccurate/wrong!



Quote:
Originally Posted by bullet08

but GMO food will become necessity sooner or later. in america and europe and certain modernized nations we can push that off for awhile.. but with modern medication, longer life span, and over population, genetically engineer food will become staple very soon. with global climate change, famine and drought will become more severe.. without GMO, there won't be enough food to go around. of course, we can mow down 3rd world country to solve the problem, but i think that would look bad.. then again, we can keep preach that GMO is bad and stop the "progress" and have millions.. if not billions of people starve to death.



GMO's did not increase yield or nutritional content (with the exception of golden rice) but the propaganda would have you think otherwise. The whole point of GMO's IS TO sell more poison/round up!

The green revolution (which increased yield) was the result of traditional breeding not gene alteration and transference.

Okay Mike, I downloaded buycott but I won't know until I go to the co-op today if it will help me. I love that it let me sign the "demand GMO labeling" petition.

when we have plenty to eat, we can pick and choose. we can say "let them eat cake". but some of those who are already dying do not have that choice. progress in human manipulation has gone on for 1000s of yrs. GMO as it is currently is a way to profit at the cost of the rest, but this can lead to something different in future. how we "control" it will either save us or finish us off. blindly labeling it as poison won't help. blindingly letting is go on won't help either. but if they can manipulate the genes to increase the yield, that will help in saving live but not saving the planet. so choose your "less of an evil". i bet you have a car. i remember back in college.. bunch of health freaks screaming on the main drag that cigarette smoke is poison while they are breathing in 100 times more smoke from passing cars. of course half of them were known pot heads too. oh.. other half were "i only smoke when i'm drinking so i'm not a smoker". 

bottom line. do i know GMO is not something i want? yes. i know that. would i prevent GMO from being shipped oversea to people who are starving? or help those who needs to eat? i won't. 

people have this strange idea that things are black and white. abortion is a good example. do i support abortion? no. i don't. will i prevent abortion on a woman? i won't. it's not my body. she has her right to do what she needs to do to her body and what is in that body. sure, argue that the baby is a new life. but what's the chance of that baby surviving outside of the woman's body without modern medical support? will i pay for it? no. if woman wants to have an abortion, get her own money to do it. it was rape or incest? not my fault that she wasn't packing .45 to shoot the bastard. 

if this offended anyone, sorry.. just not having a good day. didn't mean to vomit all over the forum :)

I'm sorry you're not having a good day Pete but I thoroughly enjoyed your vomit :)

"How bout them figs!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by bullet08
when we have plenty to eat, we can pick and choose. we can say "let them eat cake". but some of those who are already dying do not have that choice. progress in human manipulation has gone on for 1000s of yrs. GMO as it is currently is a way to profit at the cost of the rest, but this can lead to something different in future. how we "control" it will either save us or finish us off. blindly labeling it as poison won't help. blindingly letting is go on won't help either.


I'm not blindly labeling anything.  The current purpose of GMOs is to sell more round up and other herbicides and pesticides.  Those are what I labeled poisons.  Although if you look at the Serolini (http://www.naturalnews.com/037249_gmo_study_cancer_tumors_organ_damage.html)  GMO corn is poisonous to those that consume it.

Quote:
but if they can manipulate the genes to increase the yield, that will help in saving live but not saving the planet. so choose your "less of an evil".


Well if you destroy the planet are you saving lives or just making more to kill later?  No GMO crops have been released that increase yield.  Zero.  That's in the 20 years since they first released GMO crops.

Quote:

  i bet you have a car. i remember back in college.. bunch of health freaks screaming on the main drag that cigarette smoke is poison while they are breathing in 100 times more smoke from passing cars. of course half of them were known pot heads too. oh.. other half were "i only smoke when i'm drinking so i'm not a smoker". 


This has nothing to do with the discussion so I don't feel the need to defend or attack car drivers, smokers, or potheads right now.

Quote:
bottom line. do i know GMO is not something i want? yes. i know that. would i prevent GMO from being shipped oversea to people who are starving? or help those who needs to eat? i won't. 


That's not part of the discussion either.  Would I burn a crop of GMOs rather than feed the hungry?  Of course not, but GMOs aren't being shipped over seas to feed the hungry.  They're being imported and put into processed foods to make americans fatter and sicker so they can support our largest industry/ source of revenue, the medical pharmaceutical industrial complex.

Quote:
people have this strange idea that things are black and white. abortion is a good example. do i support abortion? no. i don't. will i prevent abortion on a woman? i won't. it's not my body. she has her right to do what she needs to do to her body and what is in that body. sure, argue that the baby is a new life. but what's the chance of that baby surviving outside of the woman's body without modern medical support? will i pay for it? no. if woman wants to have an abortion, get her own money to do it. it was rape or incest? not my fault that she wasn't packing .45 to shoot the bastard. 


What if she was packing a 45 and it jammed?  Or he caught her off guard.  I don't really care about your answers to these questions.  You've gone off on a lot of tangents here and made a lot of assumptions.  No one said things were black and white.  No one was doing anything blindly. 

Quote:
if this offended anyone, sorry.. just not having a good day. didn't mean to vomit all over the forum :)


I'm certainly not offended and I hope you're not offended by any of my posts.  I wish I knew a nicer way to say it but you sound frustrated with the situation and overwhelmed by the effort required.  Like I said earlier, a lot of the work has been done for you and it isn't that difficult to find it.  The difficult part is making sure you don't give money to the people/ entities that are violating your environment.
 
I hope your day gets much better.

i'm not offended at all. difference is opinion is fine. we just see things differently. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hortstu
The current purpose of GMOs is to sell more round up and other herbicides and pesticides.


No, it's not. When grown as recommended by agricultural authorities round-up resistant and BT corn was supposed to massively reduce the need for chemical pesticide and herbicide inputs, NOT increase yields directly. This means proper crop rotation between plant families and planting portions of fields with non-GM varieties of the same plant (ie: half BT Corn and half regular corn). Farmers ignored these recommendations and planted massive monocultures of same strain of the same crop year after year (there was too much profit to change it up), with the same weed and pest management programs. That led to accelerated adaptation/evolution of pests and weeds to resist the toxins. This NOW means there needs to be heavier use of herbicides and pesticides in all systems, not just GM fields.

While I believe more research needs to be done into the potential health risks of GM crops, I refuse to completely close that toolbox. In properly managed systems GM plants should have been  productive with much fewer inputs. However, the quest for profits on the part of industrial scale farmers essentially doomed what should have been a useful part of a multi-leveled approach (no-till, cover cropping, crop rotation, using targeted pesticides instead of broad spectrum, etc) to increasing crop yields and decreasing inputs.

I'm not attacking you personally, I've just read a great deal of misinformed opinions from many people and it upsets me that conclusions are drawn without understanding the facts and reasons for GM plants being introduced. I have education in agriculture and and degree in horticulture, so I try to inform other people of what the story behind GM plants is.



On the topic at hand, open source seeds are a great idea! Too many great traits are being hoarded by seed companies that should openly developed and shared, but that's capitalism for you. Of course, there is a massive availability of useful traits in heirloom plants, which are not patented. I know new Heirloom varieties of tomato are being developed by a couple people and sold through Baker Creek.



How about those figs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bullet08
i'm not offended at all. difference is opinion is fine. we just see things differently. 


We do? Let's bridge this divide. What am I seeing differently than you, with regards to the current state of the GMO industry? I sincerely want to understand your perspective.

tell me why you hate GMO so much? and i'll tell you why i don't mind it so much.. wait. i already listed number of reasons. one of the top reason is uncontrollable population explosion. more yield, better nutrients and all other things are possible. 

you yourself have indicated that golden rice as one, there are others.. vitamin enriched corn is another. the possibility of using GMO to feed the population that's going hungry is limitless. 

there. by the way, your argument that GMO is plain bad doesn't work. we started this 1000s of yrs ago when human first started breeding crops and animals. we have just figured out what else we can do with it if we can manipulate the gene. 

so my bottom line? GMO can feed people who are going hungry. what's your point? 

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