what is the reason for waiting for the root initial before moving into cup? if i understand correctly, jon's new baggie method does not wait for the root initial, but put the cutting directly into the soil/perlite or whatever rooting mix. this seems to have good result from number of members.

also reading the forum, number of cultivar will root when just stuck into the ground.

any specific reason for waiting for root initials?

pete

Ok, so this is my belief.

It is all about tracking development.  You wait for root initials to "prove" that the cutting is viable so you know the best time to transfer to a pot or cup.  Once you see initials, you place inside a clear cup with some rooting medium (soil/perlite/whatever) to monitor rooting progress more.  When the cutting is showing good rooting in the clear cup, you will transfer to a larger pot.  This method is superb for someone who has never rooted before and needs to understand the process and monitor more closely, or for someone who has a cutting they absolutely don't want to lose (due to low numbers or rarity).

In the case of Jon's 'new alternate baggie method' (or whatever) you are skipping the step with the baggie and paper towels (or moss) and going straight into a small baggie which requires very tiny amounts of rooting medium (perlite/soil/whatever), so I like to think of the new alternate method as a "blend" of the first two steps of the old baggie method (the bag step + the cup step), only the baggie is open, and there is potting medium inside instead of paper towels or moss.  It's almost the same thing, it's a lot easier, but if you've never rooted before and don't understand concepts of "proper" watering and you've never rooted in a baggie before (the old way), you might find it very difficult to use this method.

I think the baggie + paper towl (or moss) method is very good for beginners who want to get to a place of high yields.  I think the new alternative baggie method is good for novice and expert growers who are familiar with the process and fundamentals of rooting.

I hope this helps.

jason,

so in theory, if one doesn't care to look at the root coming out of the cutting, it's just fine to put it directly into rooting medium and leave it in the cup/pot. just need to provide warmth and moisture... and wait..

pete

Yes.  It is perfectly OK to do that, technically, but you should understand some things, I think.  The entire purpose of using the baggies is to stimulate roots to initialize by placing them in a slightly damp, sealed and humid environment, and when the root initials occur, transferring it into a pot where they can stretch out their legs and grow.

I edited my last post to add additional comments about it.

The problem that many people have is correctly handling water and humidity, though.  So the risk you would run by avoiding the baggie method is trying to keep your potting only slightly damp (not wet at all) and trying to keep proper humidty in the 'rooting environment' (bag or cup or bin).  Using the old baggie method, you are creating a sealed high-humidity environment around the cutting inside the sealed zip-top baggie, then you transfer the cutting into a cup with slightly damp potting medium (after root initials form) and putting that cup into a sealed bin where (again) it sits in an enclosed high-humidity environment --- in my opinion, 65%-80% humidity is ideal, anything higher will result in excessive mold growth and rotting.

The constant factor/fundamental we follow:  Hardly wet materials around a stick inside a mostly-sealed and humid environment.

In the end, it's up to you what you choose.  I recommend at least trying one batch using the baggie method.  Be sure to clean your cuttings very well before putting them in the baggie or you will deal with mold as you already have.  When I say "clean" them, I mean you should take a toothbrush and scrub wet with antibacterial dish soap, scrubb the cutting from top to bottom so all the loose debris is knocked off, rinse it, then soak for 60-90 seconds in a 10% bleach solution (1 part bleach, 9 parts water), then totally air dry for about a half an hour before wrapping in a paper towel and placing them in your baggie.  To reduce mold spores, it is CRITICAL that you use a clean baggie, your cuttings don't come in contact with a surface that had food once they come out of the bleach, and your hands and the paper towel you use in the baggie are also clean and don't contact anything that had food or other biologicals.  Think about it - if you take all that time to bleach the bacteria off your cuttings only to place them on a bare counterop that you cleaned with a dish sponge (which are notoriously full of bacteria), you're just reintroducing bacteria to the cutting again, and putting it into a baggie, which is a perfect bacteria/mold incubator!!

this feels like being back in the microbiology lab back in school. lol

pete

I hear you!!

I will say that I tend to agree with Jon.  That is, "it's more luck than science", pretty much.  Some would argue, but ... it seems I can use the exact same method twice and have 30% success the first batch and 80% success with the second batch, same conditions, same wood, etc. 

In the end, I think it's most important to understand and respect the fundamentals, find what works best for you and .... just do it. 

I tried at least 5 diff't rooting methods my second year of serious rooting.  I found that using baggie + paper towel -to-> cup with 85% perlite and 15% potting mix inside a bin worked best (80%+ success from start to finish after one year's time)

This year, I'm using Jon's new 'alternate' baggie method.  My first batch I used 85% perlite + 15% potting mix (approximately).  Second batch I used 50% + 50% of each.  The batch I just started this month I ran out of perlite, so I'm trying 90% potting mix with 10% perlite.  Right now, using high perlite and low potting mix has been best, but ... the bad part about the alternate rooting method is I had about 85% success with the initial rooting, but I lost a LOT of trees during transfer (didn't have this problem with baggie+cup method), so I only really wound up with 40% success out of all my cuttings.  The next batch using 50/50 mix was like 35% success, but more cuttings rotted than rooted, and I had much fewer losses during transfer (I think I lost many to rot because potting mix holds more water and water retention = bad!).  With this latest batch that's mostly potting mix, I'm hoping to have zero losses during transfer, and I've tuned down the water drastically to stave off the rot (I hope). 

It's always an adventure....

too much water rot. too little and it will dry up. i hope i didn't over wet the soil/perlite. i did 50/50 then wet them with water, squeeze the water out before putting into the cup.

i'll air out everyday for an hour everyday and see what happens in few weeks.

pete

It's a tough balance.  Just don't get frustrated and stick to your guns with whatever you do.  It sounds like you dealt with the water problem by squeezing out the moisture from the mix before putting in the cup.

Expect it will take 4-6 weeks before you even start to see anything, but I'd check the cups every other day.

Like others, you should (after time) be able to "feel" how much water is in the cup based on the weight of the cup.  When cups start to feel sort of light, it could be time to add water.  Monitoring for things like condensation on the walls of the cup are also a good indicator. 

yupe.. that's what i figured. just don't want to kill all the unknown israeli red..

pete

Now here is where I will take some issue.........

IMO, rooting is much more "science" than luck. If you can understand the variables (many people do not) and know how to control those variables, you can very easily attain a very high success rate. And that success rate is measured by trees that are harden off and ready to be planted into the ground. I am not talking about a success rate that is simply based on  getting some roots to form on a twig. I am talking about success based on number of twigs converted into viable and fully established trees.

IMO, many people still confuse paper towel "staining" with mold. There is a HUGE difference between the two. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that many "BELIEVE" that stains on the  paper towel is an indication of a mold problem. Still others "believe" that fig barking is mold.....which it is not.

I like to start my fig cuttings in baggies and/or water for many reasons. I want the ability to optimize and control the rooting parameters. I want to see that I have both a viable bud or two on the twig and I want to be able to remove any emerging figlets and/or extra buds that will be BELOW the soil surface when it is in the rooting cup or peat pot. I like to see the beginning of the roots. Because, that is a clear signal that the internal pipeline that is within the cutting and which links the terminal bud & lateral buds  to the rooting system....IS IN FACT functioning again in terms of a chemical communication.

I consider myself to be an "excellent" fig rooter.....not by mere luck or by practice; but, as a direct result of my understanding of the rooting variables and how to optimize and control them at will. To my knowledge, NO ONE has ever conducted a "multivariable designed experiment" (a known scientific method used by scientists to solve problems) like I have done.

I've mentioned the Carbon Dioxide rooting variable several times before. I'm sure there are some who still do not understand what I was trying to explain. My latest research work on a new fig rooting method uses "green algae" to actually remove carbon dioxide from the rooting environment of fig twigs in a synergistic approach to this issue. Very neat stuff that is worthy of publication. I may one day choose to reveal this method to this forum. Time will tell.....

For now, I highly recommend using the Peat Pot Method as Pete has chosen to do.

Dan
Semper Fi-cus 

I say it's more luck than science because there are too many outside variables that cannot be controlled.

That is, for example ...

You have no way of knowing how viable the cuttings are you have used, it may be a weak branch.
You have no way of knowing how long the person shipping you cuttings had them in cold storage (could be for months).
You have no way of knowing what may have contaminated the potting medium you're using.
You have no way of knowing whether the bags or cups you're using may be contaminated with something.
You have no way of knowing whether the water you watered your cuttings with or the moisture already in the potting medium (if applicable) has something in it.

I am sure there are several other things, but for the average person rooting cuttings, they're not sterilizing, they probably are not pulling cuttings from their own tree, and therefore, there is a ton of luck involved with getting a rooted plant.  There is a moderate amount of science... but a great amount of luck.

Jason
Are you rooting summer cuttings in the same way as dormant cuttings and if so are you using green wood.

I have never tried rooting with green wood.  Only dormant wood.  And I usually root my cuttings in batches at the same time, but chose to stagger them this year by a couple of weeks just for the sake of experimentation.

Like I've stated......

IMLO, rooting is much more "science" than luck and you and I, Jason, will probably NEVER agree on this. But that is perfectly OK. I know how to develop and optimize fig rooting  methods thru an understanding of science and not thru any blind ole luck.

Just keep this in mind and please do not take it in a negative way....... maybe you do not know what you do not know. I have tried to explain the mold triangle to people in an attempt to deal with their mold problems. Mold issues will not be a problem if you understand this concept. It takes an understanding of water distillation, condensation, relative humidity, absolute humidity, atmospheric pressure, dissolved salts, osmosis, osmotic pressure, direction of osmosis to understand some of these concepts and their effects. That comes from science....not from any luck.  knowing  "what" chemicals to use and in what order to use them........to clean cuttings comes from science too (wetting agents, and oxidizers)....not due to luck of any sort.  Etc. etc. etc.

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

So you are rooting cuttings from last winter.
If I knew they would last that long I would have waited untill spring and do mine in the mist bed instead of the house I have rooted many thousands of cuttings under mist   but that whole in the house thing is allien to me I can't even grow houseplants.

@Jim, I am rooting cuttings from last winter, taken between the months of December through April.  If properly looked after, most cuttings can remain viable inside a refrigerator between 34-40ºF for at least 3-4 months.  I had a problem where one baggie slid behind my veggie crisper this year and I lost track of it for 3 months, and it molded over completely, so it's possible to lose cuttings that are placed in the fridge if you don't watch them.  You need to check them every 2-3 weeks to make sure the newspaper or towels you wrapped them in are still slightly damp, and make sure mold hasn't set in.  I like to double-bag my cuttings because I've found bags with holes in them.  Clean your hands really well any time you're handling them so you don't introduce any 'food' (contaminants) from handling the cuttings, and don't over-moisten your towel or sphagnum or whatever you use.

@Dan, I didn't take anything you've said personally or negative, I know where you're coming after our many conversations on this and other topics in the past here, at GW and by email.  I admire and respect what you are doing.  I will remind you of one thing I have said a couple of times to you:  I put rooting process in terms that the average human can understand, and will forever do that out here in the public, because I'm talking to the average individual who is just getting started to try and help understand basic fundamentals.  I don't like to put on my engineer hat and explain the compexities - many of which I know, understand and practice but do not share - and the exact science behind rooting, because the average person I've spoken with who is just getting started doesn't need or want to absorb that kind of information to achieve a little success when they're just getting started. 

At the end of the day, I'm not one to teach a toddler how to make their own aspirin (acetylsalicilic acid) by mixing salycilic acid with acetic anhydride, phosphoric or sulfuric acid, ethanol and distilled water (or whatever, I haven't done that lab since I was in college two decades ago).  It makes more sense to explain how to make it to the store, find the bottle, open it, eat a tablet, then drink some water to flush it down.   I respect the level of science you choose to take things down to and hope you understand that I do inherently respect you for it; it is really interesting for a couple of people and admirable to see, but I feel that level of detail is often intimidating and frustrating for newbies or folks who just want something that's "good enough" to produce a tree or two per half dozen sticks they receive.  Besides that, I think adding the element of "luck" into the equation - knowing that luck does play a role in rooting, no matter how (in)significant - it keeps it fun and challenging without requiring a degree in rocket science, y'know? 

You know I'll never knock you for what you're saying.  And you should know I don't disagree with what you're saying, I just choose a different path to teach and share ;)   And I think that's OK - at least, I'm OK with it if you're OK with it.  I realize some things are "lost in translation" when you simplify them, oversimplification doesn't lend to the precision accuracy I think you prefer to relay.  I'd rather practice "K.I.S.S." (Keep It Simple, Stupid) and provide a way to some early success ... which will inspire more learning and efforts ...rather than "scare 'em with big words" and lose them before they get started ;)

Jason
Thanks for the information on how to keep cuttings in the fridge.
I think next year I will wait untill the weather warms a little and either root the cuttings in my mist bed or if they are natorious for not rooting I will graft them on a rootstock and do airlayers later.
If anyone can see problems with that plan please let me know.

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Really, you can root any time of year.  You can take hardened wood from a growing tree right now and try rooting.  You can also do airlayers as you indicate.  Bass has also recently produced a thread on growing green cuttings which can be followed at this time of year.

If you choose to take dormant cuttings for rooting in spring or summer and plan to keep them in the fridge, take the cuttings as late as humanly possible so they will remain fresh and viable for longer.  The longer things stay in the fridge, the less viable they will probably be later.

Thanks
I am talking about dorment cuttings I get from forum members.
 I take cuttings from my figs in summer they root really well even the soft tip will root well under mist

Hi Jim,

Would you describe what your misting bed looks like, location, size etc?

Is misting kept on 24 hours a day or turned on intermittently?

Could someone build one at relatively low cost? Thanks.

Frank

Hi Frank
The mist is on for 10 seconds and off for 10 minutes only during the day.
Mine covers 50 square ft. in the corner of my greenhouse very simple I will get pictures of it and post them.
The cost is in the timer it cost about $80.00 everything else makes the total price around $100.00
Ther is amuch cheaper timer that I saw on ebay but the shortist interval of time was 1 minute.

when home checked the cuttings left in the bag. more mold. took them out, scrubed them with antibacterial soap with new toothbrush, soaked them in bleach solution (10%~), and wrap them in new paper towel. put them in a new bag. i didn't blow air into them. i just swung the bag few time to catch air, then roll the zipper side of the bag few time to catch air in the bottom side where the cuttings were. i might be introducing something when i'm blowing into the bag with my mouth.

i noticed that two cuttings that i have seen molds on are not as smooth as the others which didn't develope molds. smooth on the outside that is. little bumps and things might be hiding something that provide mold to get hold on.

i think i figured out why the dan's peat pot method will work well. will see how it turns out for me.

pete

The most common place I see mold form is at any place you have cut and the inside is exposed, and also at the scar left behind for the leaf, or at any dead buds.  Smooth cuttings (which are younger) seem to mold less easily, older wood molds easier for me (rough, grey wood).

I make sure to scrub very well at the leaf scar, joints and cut ends of the cutting.  Sometimes, the average person just can't get rid of the mold without leaving a cutting outside of humidity, which makes it tough.

There is a treatment that some guys have talked about here which is supposed to stop mold in its tracks in bad cases.  It is called Physan-20.  You will find it here:  http://www.physan.com/  It supposedly prevents mold and will kill it after it has started and gotten a good root in your sticks.

Here is what a Mister Propagation Bed looks like.......
This one was constructed from spare parts by a fig friend of mine.

Good point on the closed vs. open, Dan.