Differences between Black Celeste and Malta Black

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satellitehead

Registered:1257988353
Posts: 3,687

Posted 1310086775	Reply with quote #1

I think the title says it all. What is the "actual" different between Malta Black and Black Celeste? I know that Malta Black is supposedly the "grandparent" of Celeste. Belleclare used to sell it (BC35). But there is also Black Celeste. And then you have LSU Scott's Black. All seem to be "black" versions of Celeste. Can anyone lend some insight? __________________ Jason Atlanta/Grant Park area - z8

ejp3

Registered:1193140374
Posts: 668

Posted 1310089325	Reply with quote #2

I don't know the difference between malta black and black celeste since I dont have black celeste but I will say that scotts black does not resemble malta at all. Malta ripens early, like a celeste, where as scotts ripens late. Also the leaves do not resemble each other. If you want to swap some bc's for mb's I am all for it. __________________ Ed NY zone 7 Wish list CDD Blanca/Negra

satellitehead

Registered:1257988353
Posts: 3,687

Posted 1310089478	Reply with quote #3

You are very kind, Ed, but I have neither variety right now - only Scott's Black. I am trying to figure out if I should get BC or MB at this point. __________________ Jason Atlanta/Grant Park area - z8

noss

Registered:1244523274
Posts: 2,122

Posted 1310091082	Reply with quote #4

Hi Jason, Scott's Black is nothing like Black Celeste in shape, size, or taste. I don't have a producing Malta Black, so I can't compare that to either of the other two. I found the SB has a more fruity flavor when Marty and his wife were so generous as to let me go visit them and taste an older SB of theirs. They were good, but the flavor was not like the Black Celeste. I do have a SB, but it's young, so this year, it only has two figs on it so far, but it's a late fig and I've already eaten two BCs, which were very good. I found them sweeter than my regular Celestes and the ones I ate had less of a figgy flavor than regular Celestes. Very good, though. You should get a Malta Black and Black Celeste--- :) You NEED them..... noss __________________ noss/a.k.a. Vivian Lafayette, LA Zone 9a Wish List: Col de Dame Blanc, Col de Dame Noir, Scott's Yellow, Tony's Brown Italian, any other fig that is good in the rain/humidity and has a real figgy flavor.

satellitehead

Registered:1257988353
Posts: 3,687

Posted 1310092191	Reply with quote #5

My wife would tell you I need another fig tree about like I need another hole in my ass. She would say "like I need another hole in my head", but sometimes I believe she thinks my ass and head are either the same thing, or one remains firmly planted in the other. I'd argue with her about it, but I'm sad to say she's probably right. __________________ Jason Atlanta/Grant Park area - z8

Dan_la

Registered:1189771593
Posts: 1,438

Posted 1310108944	Reply with quote #6

I have been growing Black Celeste and Scott's Black longer than anyone on both of the fig forums. Both of these figs come from my area. Last year I rooted a Malta Black.....so now I have all three. I have not yet seen nor tasted a Malta Black fig. Scott's Black is a "hybrid" fig that was bred at LSU by Dr. O'Rourke. I passed cuttings around of LSU Scott's Black and LSU Late Black for fig trials in other areas. It is a medium sized excellent tasting fig. FYI, I was the first person to post a picture and a description of a Scott's Black fig on the Internet. I had posted that information on this forum and later removed it when I was being harassed and subsequently moved to the other fig forum. Likewise, I am the first person to post ANY relative information about LSU Scott's Yellow and to publish its picture. Black Celeste is an unknown Louisiana heirloom fig. IMO, it has absolutely no relationship to a Celeste fig. It is a small JET black fig with a dynamite taste to it. My tree has been rather sensitive to cold weather. Perhaps, I put it in the ground too soon. I've recently posted pictures of a Black Celeste fig in another thread on this forum. You will not not find any information about this rare fig other than what I have written. Black Celeste is its own UNIQUE cultivar unlike any other fig. IT IS NOT JUST ANOTHER TYPE OF CELESTE. Malta Black is "rumoured" to be related to regular Celeste. Now, how could anyone living in the land of the fig wasp possibly know that for sure is beyond me.........given all the confusion over the Celeste cultivar. IMO, that is just pure speculation (i.e. talking points) and not at all based on any FACT. It is baloney IMO. Dan Semper Fi-cus

noss

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Posts: 2,122

Posted 1310109792	Reply with quote #7

Dan, Maybe they were thought to be related because they are both Malta figs and do they look alike? I wondered if the Malta Black and the Black Celeste were the same because of the description of both and they sounded a lot alike to me, but people all tell me they're different. If my little Malta Blacks would decide to grow and produce fruit, I will be able to see for myself. The BC and the Celestes do resemble each other. I find the BC to be even more rich than the regular Celeste. My BC has dropped a few figs, but it's been so hot and they aren't very large trees. More have stayed on the trees than have fallen. Does anyone have a photo of a Malta Black tree and fruit and the Black Celeste tree and fruit to show us for comparison? noss __________________ noss/a.k.a. Vivian Lafayette, LA Zone 9a Wish List: Col de Dame Blanc, Col de Dame Noir, Scott's Yellow, Tony's Brown Italian, any other fig that is good in the rain/humidity and has a real figgy flavor.

Dan_la

Registered:1189771593
Posts: 1,438

Posted 1310130701	Reply with quote #8

Here is a picture of a Black Celeste fig....... Dan Semper Fi-cus Attached Images Black_Celeste.jpg (238.39 KB, 154 views) Black_Celeste1.jpg (400.86 KB, 188 views) Black_Celeste2.jpg (441.44 KB, 152 views) Black_Celeste3.jpg (462.66 KB, 148 views)

gorgi

Registered:1188888396
Posts: 2,864

Posted 1310135966	Reply with quote #9

Chris DiPaola of (former) Belleclare Nursery, LI-NY is no phoney. He is a very well known and respected northeast fig expert! He is a real 'figman' here, (even his custom car lic. plate says so - I have seen it). This is how he defined his Malta Black: 35. MALTA BLACK (Grandparent to Celeste) (a) medium, black, dark red center, sweet (2 crops) When he retired, the Malta Black mother tree was one of his top figs he kept for himself to enjoy late in his life.... I know this for a fact b/c he told me so, and he even showed me his actual MB mother tree. __________________ George, NJ_z7a.

Dan_la

Registered:1189771593
Posts: 1,438

Posted 1310136641	Reply with quote #10

George, you got any "proof" that Malta Black is an ancestor to regular Celeste????? .......until then, IMO, it is just a "talking point" used by salesmen to sell fig trees. Dan Semper Fi-cus

gorgi

Registered:1188888396
Posts: 2,864

Posted 1310137282	Reply with quote #11

No I do not, but I rely/trust [aka. respect] Chris's figs know-how and expertise. Go ask him... Do you have any contrary proof yourself? __________________ George, NJ_z7a.

snaglpus

Registered:1244258188
Posts: 4,072

Posted 1310139140	Reply with quote #12

Hello Jason, I also have all 3, Malta Black, Black Celeste, and LSU Scott's Black. Below are picture of my trees with figs on. The first 3 are Malta Black. The remaining 3 are Black Celeste. I also have 2 of JR's LSU Brandy, but that for another thread. I tried to take pics at different angles. Hope these help. MB is in a container. BC is in the ground. The figs on my BC are smaller and are ripening now. The figs on my MB are not ripening now. I think they will ripen in August. Hope this helps you decide. Attached Images Picture_477_1.jpg (997.97 KB, 138 views) Picture_478_1.jpg (992.99 KB, 114 views) Picture_479_1.jpg (994.86 KB, 105 views) Picture_480_1.jpg (999.87 KB, 98 views) Picture_481_1.jpg (991.28 KB, 90 views) Picture_482_1.jpg (990.13 KB, 83 views) __________________ Dennis Charlotte, North Carolina/Zone 8a

Dan_la

Registered:1189771593
Posts: 1,438

Posted 1310139663	Reply with quote #13

@ George, James Robin "said" his sicilian black fig tree was a Sal's fig. The FACT remains that that description was just a "talking point" to sell his fig trees. -------------------------------------------- As far as contrary proof. I sure do have indirect proof...... How in the world could anyone possibly know that a "Malta Black" fig tree growing in the land of the fig wasp (where many new cultivars will grow wild from many fertilized seeds) was actually pollinated by a fig wasp in order to produce a new variety of fig tree that later became the "mother" of a regular Celeste fig tree ?? And exactly which strain of Celeste is the "true" regular Celeste?? Does anyone have pictures or any information whatsoever on the first mother Celeste fig tree which would have tap roots on it since it came from a fertillized seed?????? Now the claim is that it is the "grandparent".......notice they DID NOT claim it to be the "Mother" fig. So logic tells me that Celeste cannot be a "bud sport" of Malta Black. Maybe I could have bought that claim..... Making any claim whatsoever that Malta Black is the "grandparent" (not the mother fig mind you) is 100% pure speculation and BALONEY, IMO. I trust my logic, know how, and expertise too. I have little doubt that Malta Black is its own cultivar and a very good fig. And NO ONE knows for certain the complete heritage of our present day regular Celeste fig. Least of all people who SELL fig trees. ---------------- Jason, sounds like you need all three!! Dan Semper Fi-cus

gorgi

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Posts: 2,864

Posted 1310141512	Reply with quote #14

Pure speculation. I said all I had to say. Over and out. __________________ George, NJ_z7a.

Dan_la

Registered:1189771593
Posts: 1,438

Posted 1310141831	Reply with quote #15

I am glad that you and I finally agree on something George. That it was pure speculation on the part of Belleclare nursery to make that unprovable claim. Dan Semper Fi-cus

ejp3

Registered:1193140374
Posts: 668

Posted 1310142705	Reply with quote #16

Georgie, the final week belleclare was open I tried to buy his mother tree malta black and was denied. I offered him mucho money for it but as you said, he wasn't parting with it. __________________ Ed NY zone 7 Wish list CDD Blanca/Negra

gorgi

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Posts: 2,864

Posted 1310144451	Reply with quote #17

Thanks Ed for the confirmation.... __________________ George, NJ_z7a.

Bass

Registered:1188959030
Posts: 2,428

Posted 1310148956	Reply with quote #18

Malta Black seems different th an Dan's photo. It has a thicker skin than any Celeste I've seen. The eye is nice and closed which resists rain very well. __________________ Pennsylvania http://www.treesofjoy.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/Trees-of-Joy/110193909021138

Dan_la

Registered:1189771593
Posts: 1,438

Posted 1310151613	Reply with quote #19

Confirmation that Bellecare sold a fig that is claimed to be the "grandmother" to a Celeste fig is still speculation that does not mean squat about any "proven" linkage to the famous fig of the South (Celeste). I want to buy a Celeste DAUGHTER fig to Malta Black. Where do I buy one?????? Anybody seen one???? Did Belleclare propagate cuttings from either the daughter fig to Black Malta that began the whole line of regular Celeste fig trees....or from the mother tree itself??? ------------------ Cecil, I'm with you. I could care less the name or heritage of a fig. Name and heritage become importan when one tries to avoid duplicatesAs long as it is productive and good tasting I will keep it. However, it it time to challenge some long held fig beliefs like this one. IMO, any claims that Malta Black is "grandmother" to Celeste is pure speculation until DNA evidence proves otherwise. Same goes for that other claim that conflicts with the fig growing experiences of many people. That you need a certain "nutrient ratio" fertilizer to grow figs, etc. etc. etc. ---------------- FWIW....my Malta Black came from a very generous forum member who obtained it directly from Belleclare nursery. Bass, thanks for posting those pictures. It adds a lot to this thread and may help Jason decide whether he does or does not need all three!! Dan Semper Fi-cus

paully22

Registered:1195324538
Posts: 2,719

Posted 1310153263	Reply with quote #20

I would like to trial Blk Celeste in my zone Pacific North West. Hence if anyone has cuttings or small sucker to spare in trade for other cuttings or monies, please drop me an email.

Dan_la

Registered:1189771593
Posts: 1,438

Posted 1310154005	Reply with quote #21

Paully's post reminds me of something else......(no cuttings this year as I want to put lots of new growth on my tree). After being top killed, Black Celeste can produce a crop of figs from the new growth that emerges from the roots. Dan Semper Fi-cus

robertharper

Registered:1236730861
Posts: 369

Posted 1310163471	Reply with quote #22

Bass, as usual, outstanding photography I'm surprised that your not working as a full time nature photographer. I'm going to add this picture of Black Malta to my fig fruit collection. Bob

satellitehead

Registered:1257988353
Posts: 3,687

Posted 1310176606	Reply with quote #23

Quote: Originally Posted by Dan_la Jason, sounds like you need all three!! Dan I agree with you, I only have LSU Scott's Black, so I guess I'm on the hunt for BC and MB now .... I have enjoyed the conversation thus far, even if it seems to have had a lot of back-and-forth. I appreciate seeing the different thoughts and beliefs, even though it's very clear there is nothing here but speculation which can never be proven (without genetic testing to search for commonalities, which could be interesting). __________________ Jason Atlanta/Grant Park area - z8

Bass

Registered:1188959030
Posts: 2,428

Posted 1310177350	Reply with quote #24

Thanks for the compliment Bob. I enjoy taking photos of fruit as much as I like to eat them. __________________ Pennsylvania http://www.treesofjoy.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/Trees-of-Joy/110193909021138

noss

Registered:1244523274
Posts: 2,122

Posted 1310178506	Reply with quote #25

Oh for Pete's sake! Dan! My Black Celeste doesn't look like that at all. The skin is dull and the fruit is shaped like a regular Celeste. Your's is more round and the skin is shiny. I got my tree from Dalton. Also, my Black Celeste doesn't have a long stem like that either. Aaarrrrgh! Dan, did you get my email? I wanted to confirm your email address before I sent you the picture of the Magnolia fig. noss __________________ noss/a.k.a. Vivian Lafayette, LA Zone 9a Wish List: Col de Dame Blanc, Col de Dame Noir, Scott's Yellow, Tony's Brown Italian, any other fig that is good in the rain/humidity and has a real figgy flavor.

snaglpus

Registered:1244258188
Posts: 4,072

Posted 1310178513	Reply with quote #26

Jason, Mama always said fig trees are like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get! (smile) Just be happy with what you have and enjoy life. Be blessed. __________________ Dennis Charlotte, North Carolina/Zone 8a

Dan_la

Registered:1189771593
Posts: 1,438

Posted 1310214071	Reply with quote #27

Noss, Dennis stated it perfectly........ I just found your email lost in my in box with all those ebay notices. I have sent you some good pictures of the English Brown Turkey fig. They were taken by the person who sent me cuttings from his tree. Did not want to post them on the Internet without his permission.......those pictures belong to him. Dan Semper Fi-cus

DaveBNFl

Registered:1301495917
Posts: 53

Posted 1310249929	Reply with quote #28

2 Dan. Dan, Is your Black Celeste a different strain than what Durio Nursery sells ? Or is it just a case different cultivation practice and personal taste ? Thanks Dave.

noss

Registered:1244523274
Posts: 2,122

Posted 1310285228	Reply with quote #29

Dave, That's a good question. I'll have to take photos of my BC & the leaves when the other fruit ripens. My BC fruit looked just like the fruit on Dalton's tree at the nursery. The tree dropped another fig today. Now, I'm hoping the BC I have is not going to be too much like a regular Celeste. Maybe they've been talking to my Celeste, "Legacy" behind my back..... Dan, I got your email and the pics and emailed you back. Thanks for taking the time to send the pics. noss __________________ noss/a.k.a. Vivian Lafayette, LA Zone 9a Wish List: Col de Dame Blanc, Col de Dame Noir, Scott's Yellow, Tony's Brown Italian, any other fig that is good in the rain/humidity and has a real figgy flavor.

paully22

Registered:1195324538
Posts: 2,719

Posted 1310310253	Reply with quote #30

Noss, any chance you could post pic's of your Black Celeste(Not) like leaves, fruit shape & interior ? Thanks.

noss

Registered:1244523274
Posts: 2,122

Posted 1310360434	Reply with quote #31

Hi Paully, When Mike is back home and has gotten through his Recurrent Training, I will at least get photos of the trees and leaves (I cut the original tree in half in the spring). There are some really pretty leaves on the trees. I will get photos of the fruit when another one gets ripe. The fruit is very dark and the skin is dull. They're young trees in their third season. I don't know if cutting the tree in half set it back any. It doesn't appear to have done so and they seem to have done well. After I cut the tree in half, they sat on the carport in the shade only getting early morning sun and not a lot of that. After getting used to the sun, they were put out in the front bed (Potted). The fruit is not shiny like Dan's and is shaped more like a regular Celeste, so who knows what it is? I thought it was very good, even for a young tree and all this heat. noss __________________ noss/a.k.a. Vivian Lafayette, LA Zone 9a Wish List: Col de Dame Blanc, Col de Dame Noir, Scott's Yellow, Tony's Brown Italian, any other fig that is good in the rain/humidity and has a real figgy flavor.

paully22

Registered:1195324538
Posts: 2,719

Posted 1310374304	Reply with quote #32

Thanks Noss. Looking forward to seeing those pic's. Discussion on this BC variant is intriguing for me as I have almost got rid of all my Celeste with exception to Adriano's Malta. I like the taste of Celeste. Unfortunately it drops its figs badly and if BC is similar in taste, I am definitely interested in acquiring a tree.

noss

Registered:1244523274
Posts: 2,122

Posted 1310553918	Reply with quote #33

You're welcome, Paully. I have two beautiful Celestes and they have dropped most of their figs so far and that squirrel has been chewing up the green ones that haven't dropped on the tree out back. The tree out front has kept only a very few. Such a shame. Dan has said the BC is not cold hardy and Dalton Durio told me that in his experience, he hasn't seen that it is. I think all young trees need at least a couple or three years of protection even down here. I didn't take any chances with my young BC and let it stay on the carport in the "winter" and covered it with sheeting when it was down to freezing and below. (Farenheit) It did fine. noss __________________ noss/a.k.a. Vivian Lafayette, LA Zone 9a Wish List: Col de Dame Blanc, Col de Dame Noir, Scott's Yellow, Tony's Brown Italian, any other fig that is good in the rain/humidity and has a real figgy flavor.

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