FMD
Registered:1309800590 Posts: 1,327
Posted 1373121717
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#1
Most of us have had problems with the cupping phase of turning a cutting into a fig tree. We finally get that rare cutting to root, only to have it die in the cup. Crap! Why does this happen?
Three reasons: over-watering, over-watering and last but not least, overwatering. Oh yeah, occasionally it will die from under-watering (life happens, we forget).
You can optimize the growing medium by screening out smaller pieces of perlite, using turface or by sacrificing a chicken to Santeria. Still, none of these measures will eliminate our predilection for over-watering (or under-watering). Human nature to over-nurture our babies is too powerful an instinct to control completely.
We literally drown out plants with love.
So, what are the possible solutions?
The benefits of SIPs (Sub Irrigation Planters) has universal agreement. Many forum members grow their adult trees in SIPs. See Bill's Figs for details (http://figs4fun.com/bills_figs.html).
Why do plants do so well in SIPs?
Simply because SIPs free plants to self-determination. SIPs allow a plant to feed and drink however much it requires and whenever it wants. In other words, we can't kill it by over or under-watering no matter how hard we try.
The mini SIP in this tutorial cost $0 to make and around 5 minutes of my time by recycling 8 and 32 ounce styrofoam cups.
I am experimenting with the notoriously finicky, FMV laden UC Davis Black Madeira cuttings. If these succeed, all others should be a cinch.
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__________________Frank Tallahassee, FL Zone 8b North Florida Figs
drivewayfarmer
Registered:1260287641 Posts: 773
Posted 1373122488
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#2
Frank , What a great adaptation of a proven growing system. I think I will try this on some Summer cuttings. Thanks for posting this now.
__________________ Kerry Zone 5 NH Wish list :Galicia Negra , Col de Dame Blanca/Negra .
striveforfreedom
Registered:1322497326 Posts: 437
Posted 1373126810
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#3
Thank you Frank for posting the pics of the build. Will give this a try on the next batch of cuttings to up pot.
__________________ Vince Russo Norwalk, CT Zone 7A Wish list - Any cuttings of the Col de Dames would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
Darkman
Registered:1325731541 Posts: 629
Posted 1373127790
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#4
Pretty sweet! Anybody could do this on a nothing budget. Kudos Frank
__________________ Charles in Pensacola AKA Darkman
Zone 8b/9a
Winter of 09/10 low 19
Winter of 10/11 low 19
Winter of 11/12 low 29
Winter of 12/13 low 31
Winter of 13/14 low 19
musillid
Registered:1327758167 Posts: 1,507
Posted 1373128445
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#5
Frank, You are right and that is a great idea. Where were you in February when I needed you?
__________________ Dale
non compost mentis in Zone 6a
Johnparav
Registered:1282396529 Posts: 479
Posted 1373131192
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#6
Very nice Frank .
Keep us updated on their progress .
John
james
Registered:1189185103 Posts: 1,653
Posted 1373134219
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#7
Very nice. Is it still advisable to sacrifice the chicken? If so, can it be fried chicken with a side of cole sla... Hey look at that, it's lunch time.
__________________ In containers - Littleton, CO (zone 5b) In ground - N.E of Austin, TX (zone 8b) 2016 Wish List: Dārk Pōrtuguese, Grānthāms Royāl, Lātarolla, Negrettā, Nōire de Bārbentāne, Rockāway Green, Viōlet Sepōr , Viōlette Dā uphine . Iranian figs are always welcome.
rcantor
Registered:1309799312 Posts: 5,727
Posted 1373136578
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#8
Very clever!
__________________ Zone 6, MO Wish list: Galicia Negra, De La Reina - Pons, Genovese Nero - Rafed's, Sbayi, Souadi, Acciano, Any Rimada, Sodus Sicilian, any Bass, Pons or Axier fig, any great tasting fig.
cis4elk
Registered:1347840383 Posts: 1,718
Posted 1373224328
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#9
A MacGyver special all the way! Good luck.
__________________ Calvin Littleton,CO z5/6 Wants List: For everyone to clean-up after themselves and co-exist peacefully. Let's think more about the future of our planet and less about ourselves. :)
FMD
Registered:1309800590 Posts: 1,327
Posted 1379859801
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#10
Updated results...
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__________________Frank Tallahassee, FL Zone 8b North Florida Figs
JustPeachy
Registered:1374695228 Posts: 304
Posted 1379871110
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#11
I love this and I think I could even do it but I guess I'ma dingbat....where do you put the water in? Into the straw on top, or do you submerge the whole cup for the bottom spout, or what? <blushes>
__________________ Sophie~
Sophies Choices: Sultane, Sal's , Hardy Chicago and varieties suitable to z7b...not too picky at this point since we are still a fig growing virgin!
FMD
Registered:1309800590 Posts: 1,327
Posted 1379871519
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#12
Sophie, I use a 60 cc syringe to water from above but I suppose it would work using your method from below.
__________________Frank Tallahassee, FL Zone 8b North Florida Figs
Luke
Registered:1338621371 Posts: 204
Posted 1379872513
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#13
Am also a dingbat, does the water sit below the over flow pipe? And if you over fill it drips out,
I always thought you need a wick of some sort for sip.?
But as soon as I get my numskull head around it, I will surly be doing the same thanks for sharing you great idea.
__________________ Luke 8b, England. Wish list: Olympian, Malta black, Nero 600m/400m(Vallecald),Tacoma Violet,
JustPeachy
Registered:1374695228 Posts: 304
Posted 1379881368
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#14
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMD Sophie, I use a 60 cc syringe to water from above but I suppose it would work using your method from below.
OK, so you squirt the water from the syringe into the straw and it goes down to the bottom....then it overflows out the bottom straw if it's too much...or do you just throw your syringe full of water directly onto the base of the plant? or does it even matter? TIA for the clarification!
__________________ Sophie~
Sophies Choices: Sultane, Sal's , Hardy Chicago and varieties suitable to z7b...not too picky at this point since we are still a fig growing virgin!
FMD
Registered:1309800590 Posts: 1,327
Posted 1379882812
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#15
Luke, there is indeed a wick. Look at picture 8. The potting mix around the outside of the small cup at the bottom of the big cup acts as the wick to the rest of the potting mix. Sophie, I water via the top straw.
__________________Frank Tallahassee, FL Zone 8b North Florida Figs
JustPeachy
Registered:1374695228 Posts: 304
Posted 1379884677
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#16
Thanks Frank! I'm definitely going to give this a try, and not just with fig cuttings either! :) How often do you find that you have to water on average?
__________________ Sophie~
Sophies Choices: Sultane, Sal's , Hardy Chicago and varieties suitable to z7b...not too picky at this point since we are still a fig growing virgin!
DallasFigs
Registered:1358877623 Posts: 990
Posted 1379886185
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#17
I kind of had the same idea, but my sip was not quite as elegant as yours. It's a 32 oz plastic cup inside a clear 32 oz plastic cup. The wick is a Keurig coffee filter. I cut a smaller clear plastic cup to use as a spacer for the top cup to sit on, so it would push the Keurig cup up. No overflow, since I can see in the cup. I just lift the top cup in order to fill the resevoir. I made one like yours today, but used a 32 oz plastic cup. Thanks!
__________________ James - Irving, TX - Zone: 8a Follow me on EBay Wish List: 187-25 · Ice Crystal · Maltese Beauty · Maltese Falcon
FMD
Registered:1309800590 Posts: 1,327
Posted 1379888584
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#18
Very nice, James. Thanks for posting pictures of both systems. The bigger the straw, the easier it is to water. Sophie, initially, you may have to water every few weeks. As the plant grows, you will need to water more frequently. When watering daily becomes the routine, it is time to re-pot the plant.
__________________Frank Tallahassee, FL Zone 8b North Florida Figs
DallasFigs
Registered:1358877623 Posts: 990
Posted 1379901089
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#19
Quote:
Sophie, initially, you may have to water every few weeks. As the plant grows, you will need to water more frequently. When watering daily becomes the routine, it is time to re-pot the plant.
I guess that means it's time to repot my LSU Tiger Not. That 5 gal bucket SIP is empty every morning.
__________________ James - Irving, TX - Zone: 8a Follow me on EBay Wish List: 187-25 · Ice Crystal · Maltese Beauty · Maltese Falcon
rafaelissimmo
Registered:1335639347 Posts: 1,473
Posted 1381123673
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#20
Hi Frank I can't wait to try this, I use Bill's pots for some of my big plants. Just to clarify, the 8 oz cup has its top ring sliced off, then you cut about 4 gashes in its sides, then you place it upside down inside the 32 oz. cup? Let me know. Thanks
Rafael
__________________ Zone 7b, Queens, New York
DallasFigs
Registered:1358877623 Posts: 990
Posted 1381153817
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#21
This is awesome for baby figs! I had a few in cups, one seemed to not be doing anyting at all and didn't seem to have happy roots. It had only 1 leaf that didn't seem to be growing. After about a week of being in one of these SIP's, it has a new leaf and it neary doubled in size in the past 2 days. It seems very happy now. Thanks!
I put a freshly rooted cutting in one (pics in another thread of mine) w/o going to a humidity bin. Waiting to see if it continues to grow. If that works, then all my new rootings will go straight to one of these.
__________________ James - Irving, TX - Zone: 8a Follow me on EBay Wish List: 187-25 · Ice Crystal · Maltese Beauty · Maltese Falcon
Tam
Registered:1365478628 Posts: 1,084
Posted 1381154893
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#22
Very nice, thanks for sharing. Best, Tam
FMD
Registered:1309800590 Posts: 1,327
Posted 1381159134
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#23
Rafael, you are correct in how you summarized the process. Good luck. James, I've had similar results. As a matter of interest, I believe that rooting cuttings with or without root riot cubes would work incredibly well in one of these mini-sips. Imagine setting up the cutting in one of these and not having to water again for 6-8 weeks! This is the Ron Popeil method of "set it and forget it". Over the weekend I experimented with a 16 ounce clear cup producing a super duper mini-sip specifically to root a small KB branch that I accidentally cut. I will let you all know how it turns out.
__________________Frank Tallahassee, FL Zone 8b North Florida Figs
DallasFigs
Registered:1358877623 Posts: 990
Posted 1381161370
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#24
Hmmm.. I have some new cuttings. I'll try too root one like this too. Do you put a dome over it until the roots get started to keep it from drying out from the top?
__________________ James - Irving, TX - Zone: 8a Follow me on EBay Wish List: 187-25 · Ice Crystal · Maltese Beauty · Maltese Falcon
OttawanZ5
Registered:1192897779 Posts: 2,551
Posted 1381177218
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#25
Thanks for sharing the idea, Frank. Do I understand correctly that the soil will act as a wick for moving moisture from the bottom saturated soil to the soil above ?
Being a small container for rooting, what about the roots health in the bottom saturated soil near "perched" water level (if there is any) before the stored water is consumed?
__________________Ottawan-Z5a, Canada
DallasFigs
Registered:1358877623 Posts: 990
Posted 1381180890
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#26
Ottawan. FMD is the expert here, but here's my 2cents. I target the "roots" section to be about in the center of the cup vertically. Yeah, it'll be much more moist toward the bottom, than the top. The roots will grow to wherever they are the happiest.
__________________ James - Irving, TX - Zone: 8a Follow me on EBay Wish List: 187-25 · Ice Crystal · Maltese Beauty · Maltese Falcon
OttawanZ5
Registered:1192897779 Posts: 2,551
Posted 1381181308
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#27
That is a lot more than 2cents for me, James.
__________________Ottawan-Z5a, Canada
DallasFigs
Registered:1358877623 Posts: 990
Posted 1381181660
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#28
I'll keep everyone posted on how mine perform, but what I've seen so far, is astounding.
__________________ James - Irving, TX - Zone: 8a Follow me on EBay Wish List: 187-25 · Ice Crystal · Maltese Beauty · Maltese Falcon
OttawanZ5
Registered:1192897779 Posts: 2,551
Posted 1381182029
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#29
The suggestion by Frank is very useful and easily made. The reason I asked the question was that if the principle is moisture ingression through the soil upward as needed then using an inch deep saucer (or more depending on the rooting pot height) under the rooting pot should achieve similar environment for the roots (may be except the frequency of watering).
__________________Ottawan-Z5a, Canada
FMD
Registered:1309800590 Posts: 1,327
Posted 1381239003
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#30
James, I don't see the need for a humidity dome especially if most of the cutting is burried in the potting media. Still, it would probably not hurt to have one. Akram, I suppose a well constructed pot and saucer system could be as effective, but for me nothing beats the all-in-one concept championed by the earthbox people. One of the biggest misunderstandings of this system is the misuse of potting media. You cannot use soil! That will only get you a boggy mess at the bottom of the pot with zero wicking and rotting roots. With the proper medium (mixture of peat, perlite, etc), the water is wicked up evenly throughout the mixture and you will not have a perched water table. Imagine the freedom the roots are granted being able to go where ever they want and drink as much as they want 24-7. Add to that a localized source of food that the roots can access 24-7 and you have a very happy plant.
__________________Frank Tallahassee, FL Zone 8b North Florida Figs
DallasFigs
Registered:1358877623 Posts: 990
Posted 1381240883
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#31
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMD One of the biggest misunderstandings of this system is the misuse of potting media. You cannot use soil! That will only get you a boggy mess at the bottom of the pot with zero wicking and rotting roots. With the proper medium (mixture of peat, perlite, etc), the water is wicked up evenly throughout the mixture and you will not have a perched water table. Imagine the freedom the roots are granted being able to go where ever they want and drink as much as they want 24-7. Add to that a localized source of food that the roots can access 24-7 and you have a very happy plant.
oops.. I'm using potting mix with a little bit of cow manure compost and a lot of Perlite. They seem to be happy for now, but maybe it'll be a problem down the road. What exactly is your mixture ratios for non-soil medium. When you say peat, is that the same as Sphagnum moss? shredded or long fiber?
__________________ James - Irving, TX - Zone: 8a Follow me on EBay Wish List: 187-25 · Ice Crystal · Maltese Beauty · Maltese Falcon
FMD
Registered:1309800590 Posts: 1,327
Posted 1381244885
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#32
James, your potting mix is fine. Potting mix is not potting soil. You can buy it or make your own. Peat refers to peat moss from peat bogs. Coir can substitute for peat. Ratios can vary but 70:15:15 is often used (peat:perlite:vermiculite) There are endless variations. Just no soil.
__________________Frank Tallahassee, FL Zone 8b North Florida Figs
DallasFigs
Registered:1358877623 Posts: 990
Posted 1381635760
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#33
Clearly, I've lost all sanity.... 7 Bryant Dark, 4 Joe Dark.
__________________ James - Irving, TX - Zone: 8a Follow me on EBay Wish List: 187-25 · Ice Crystal · Maltese Beauty · Maltese Falcon
Bikkurim
Registered:1354509162 Posts: 213
Posted 1381681075
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#34
Fantastic information! I have to give this a try. It is so heartbreaking to see those cups die. All that hard work! Thank you for the ideas.
__________________ Sarah
greater Portland, Oregon area
zone 8b
Wish list:any Col de Dame, Maltese Falcon, Maltese Beauty, Black Zadar, Fico Piccolino, Petite Negri, Red Lebanese
FMD
Registered:1309800590 Posts: 1,327
Posted 1381693265
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#35
James, crazy indeed...like a fox! Sarah, let us know how it works for you.
__________________Frank Tallahassee, FL Zone 8b North Florida Figs
Rewton
Registered:1291943117 Posts: 1,946
Posted 1381716605
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#36
I'm definitely going to try this so thanks for the post Frank and the variation in design, James! One thing that many have stressed on the forum is the need for aeration of the roots i.e. the need for several large holes in the side of the cup. Apparently, this system allows enough oxygen to get to the roots even with the cover over the top of the cup and only one hole in the side. Perhaps the need for the holes in a conventional rooting cup has more to do this allowing the soil to dry out rather than allowing oxygen to get in. My only question is where is a good place to find 32 oz styrofoam cups with lids? I don't frequent fast food joints very much but maybe I'll make an exception to pick up a few of these cups. I did a bit of on-line shopping but could not find reasonable quantities - 1000 is too many!
__________________ Steve MD zone 7a
Tam
Registered:1365478628 Posts: 1,084
Posted 1381717539
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#37
Very nice information, thanks for sharing. Tam
DallasFigs
Registered:1358877623 Posts: 990
Posted 1381718002
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#38
I think McDonalds large cups are styrophone. All of mine are plastic and I got them from Dickeys BBQ, Fuzzy Taco and McAllister's Deli. The ones from McAllister's, I found about 30 of them at once in the dumpster when I was looking for 5 gal pickle buckets. I like those because they are clear and I can more easily monitor the state of the roots. I keep planning to stop by and talk to the manager to see if he can just save me a stack of used cups that people leave behind. I expect to be able to reuse them, though I may have to replace the reservoir cup and straw.
__________________ James - Irving, TX - Zone: 8a Follow me on EBay Wish List: 187-25 · Ice Crystal · Maltese Beauty · Maltese Falcon
greenfig
Registered:1359790036 Posts: 3,182
Posted 1381718543
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#39
James, I am not sure that clear is good for the roots unless you cover them with smth. I keep watching my cuttings in the cups separated into 2 groups, one is clear uncovered and one is inserted into the black pots. The roots in the dark are much stronger and longer while the roots subjected to the light are thinner. I just covered the clear cups after they have been like that for about 2 weeks.
__________________ wish list: Violeta, Calderona. USDA z 10a, SoCal
DallasFigs
Registered:1358877623 Posts: 990
Posted 1381719756
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#40
yeah.. i'm planning to wrap some foil around them. Just haven't had a chance yet. Still, it will allow me to check on them now and then.
__________________ James - Irving, TX - Zone: 8a Follow me on EBay Wish List: 187-25 · Ice Crystal · Maltese Beauty · Maltese Falcon
Rewton
Registered:1291943117 Posts: 1,946
Posted 1382404100
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#41
OK, so I've collected most or all of what I need to make a mini-SIP very similar to Frank's design as well as something like James' design in his first pic of post #17. James, since you have done it both ways which design do you prefer? The advantage with your first design (Keurig cup as a wick) is that it allows for more soil mix to fit into the 32 oz cup and it does not require the presence of either the short horizontal straw or the long vertical straw.
__________________ Steve MD zone 7a
DallasFigs
Registered:1358877623 Posts: 990
Posted 1382407699
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#42
I'm still undecided on which one I like the best. I ended up sticking a straw between the inner and outer cups of mine so I don't have to remove the inner cup for refilling the reservoir. Both seem to work just as well for growing. Here's the pro's for and cons for each one as I see it. FMD's version Pros: Looks better. Uses less 32oz cups. FMD's version Cons: slightly smaller soil volume (not really an issue), a little harder to make, can't see the water level, can't place directly on window sill's w/o some sort of drip protection from the overflow tube. My version Pros: Using a clear outer cup and opaque inner cup helps protect roots from light but allows to see water level, slightly larger soil volume (doesn't matter), a little easier to make, no fear of drips on window sill. My version Cons: uses more 32 oz cups. Looks a little ghetto. seems heaver, thought I know it can't be by much. With that said, I only have one of mine and 13 of FMD's with cuttings growing. I didn't want to waste my cups. If you have a place to put them (like setting them on a tray) where you don't mind a little water drippage, I'd go with FMD's version. If you want to put them all along your window sills w/o worrying about water damage, go with mine.
__________________ James - Irving, TX - Zone: 8a Follow me on EBay Wish List: 187-25 · Ice Crystal · Maltese Beauty · Maltese Falcon
DallasFigs
Registered:1358877623 Posts: 990
Posted 1382634086
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#43
Just found this source for 32oz deli containers that should work well. I know there was a link a while back to purchase these in a case of 500. This is a case of 240. After shipping it came to 24 cents each. Including lids.
http://www.webstaurantstore.com/32-oz-microwavable-plastic-deli-container-with-lid-240-case/128HRD32%20%20%20%20COMBO240.html
__________________ James - Irving, TX - Zone: 8a Follow me on EBay Wish List: 187-25 · Ice Crystal · Maltese Beauty · Maltese Falcon
rafaelissimmo
Registered:1335639347 Posts: 1,473
Posted 1383018114
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#44
Hi Frank, 2 questions: 1. Am a little confused by pic 5- according to my understanding, the majority of the 8 oz cup minus the top ring should be placed upside down at the bottom of the 32 oz cup, but in pic 5, it looks like only a small portion of the 8 oz cup is left-is that a deceptive photo or have I misunderstood something? 2. I have checked the thread, but I cannot find your exact soil formula. Is it 50% peat moss 50% perlite, or what? Thanks very much for your help! Rafael
__________________ Zone 7b, Queens, New York
FMD
Registered:1309800590 Posts: 1,327
Posted 1383053790
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#45
Hi Rafael, Picture 5 does not show the proper depth. The size of the 8 oz cup used for the reservoir does not change after the top is trimmed. You don't really need a huge water reservoir for these mini SIPs since they are to be used for the early stages of rooting. The initial watering will last a month or more depending on the the growth of the plant. If you have to water daily, it is time to up-pot to regular one gallon or larger containers. Just to be precise, we do not use the word "soil" to describe the growing medium. Soil implies dirt, silt, organic matter, bacteria, fungi etc that all come from the ground. Any good potting mix from a garden center or box store is adequate. You can roll your own using peat moss, perlite, vermiculite, coconut coir etc at various ratios. I personally like the 80:20 ratio of peat moss to perlite, but I am sure 50:50 would work also. Frank
__________________Frank Tallahassee, FL Zone 8b North Florida Figs
rafaelissimmo
Registered:1335639347 Posts: 1,473
Posted 1383090413
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#46
Thank you Frank for your erudite response-I will be more careful when referring to the growing medium!
__________________ Zone 7b, Queens, New York
Lumberben
Registered:1364744316 Posts: 17
Posted 1383094229
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#47
I love the streamlined concept of 'planting' a cutting and theoretically not having to do anything more than monitor it till its time to move to larger pots. May have to have some of my students do an experiment along these lines with a couple different experimental groups to test multiple variables. Thanks for sharing a great idea!
__________________ _____
Ben
Atlantic County, NJ Zone 7
Wish List: Any in-ground hardy trees,Ronde De Bordeaux, Kathleen Black, Malta Black
Rewton
Registered:1291943117 Posts: 1,946
DallasFigs
Registered:1358877623 Posts: 990
Posted 1383101414
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#49
Thanks for the pics, Rewton.
__________________ James - Irving, TX - Zone: 8a Follow me on EBay Wish List: 187-25 · Ice Crystal · Maltese Beauty · Maltese Falcon
FMD
Registered:1309800590 Posts: 1,327
Posted 1383151155
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#50
Rewton, very nice. I like the holes in the yogurt cup. As you say, it can't hurt. One could also put holes in the bigger container above the water reservoir for better oxygenation of the roots.
__________________Frank Tallahassee, FL Zone 8b North Florida Figs