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greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #1 
2 exceptionally good figs! Juicy, sweet, rich tasting. The skin in both was not very edible, more like a hard shell.
Young potted plants, I am excited to see the quality improving in the next few years.

The Lampeira is very productive and bares over a long time (~2 months). 
The i258 is not that dynamic, it has been sitting with 2 figs for a long time before they started to change color. 

Both pollinated.

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jpeg i258_4.jpeg (238.70 KB, 123 views)
jpeg i258_3.jpeg (178.03 KB, 126 views)
jpeg i258_2.jpeg (216.87 KB, 132 views)
jpeg i258_1.jpeg (193.23 KB, 128 views)
jpeg i258_5.jpeg (347.70 KB, 125 views)


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jdsfrance

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Posted Reply with quote  #2 
Hi Greenfig,
Congrats !
Could you please post photos of the leaves of both trees as I'm trying to identify some unknown that I have here . Thanks .
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lampo

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Posted Reply with quote  #3 
Nice figs Igor - Congratulations
LP main crop coming just in time.
When trees get a bit more aged, stabilize their structure and roots you shall have those huge brebas and with the help of the insects a multicolored 'vindimo' crop ranging from greenish to purple, black, brown, ..
If climate helps, these trees will give the first brebas still in May.

As for the 258 it's an excellent fruit and it is a shame not to call this fig for its real name !

Francisco
Portugal
figgary

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Posted Reply with quote  #4 
2 great looking figs, Igor, that will only get better. Happy for you!
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AltadenaMara

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Posted Reply with quote  #5 
They look great! I've left one fig on one of my first year 258s and it's taking its own sweet time ripening. My fig trees are teaching me both an enjoyment of soft, sweet fruit and patience. 
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tylerj

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Posted Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lampo

As for the 258 it's an excellent fruit and it is a shame not to call this fig for its real name !

Francisco
Portugal


What is its real name Francisco??
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Posted Reply with quote  #7 
Nice looking figs
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Posted Reply with quote  #8 
Hi Igor.
Congratulations. My Italian 258 trees are just started to get a little blush on the figs.
Your Lambeira looks amazing. Enjoy.
Vito
greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #9 
Thank you, all, for the good vibes!
A nice way to start a day (after eating the figs yesterday, of course) :)

Francisco, I second the Tyler’s question, would you happen to know the proper name for the Italian 258?
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greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsfrance
Hi Greenfig,
Congrats !
Could you please post photos of the leaves of both trees as I'm trying to identify some unknown that I have here . Thanks .


I will do it tonight after the work.
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lampo

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Posted Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tylerj
Quote:
Originally Posted by lampo

As for the 258 it's an excellent fruit and it is a shame not to call this fig for its real name !

Francisco
Portugal


What is its real name Francisco??




tylerj , Igor

I do not know its name , but somewhere somebody knows its exact origins and given Name.
May be the fellow who  re-name it 258 ! All figs have names.
If it was a hybrid it's understandable that code numbers  be used.

Francisco
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greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #12 
This is how they were named:
http://www.crfg.org/chapters/golden_gate/Italian%20numbered%20figs.pdf

I am not sure if it is possible to find out that easily the original name unless we do a thorough investigation of the Italian figs.

from there:

ITALIAN NUMBERED FIGS FOUND AT BAY AREA SCION EXCHANGES

Source of figs and information

Todd Kennedy collected the Italian numbered figs in the 1980s in Rome. Patrick Shafer (PS) provided most of the comments below on each fig. Patrick’s figs are growing in the Anderson Valley (near Philo, west of Ukiah) with daily highs in the 90s from June to September, but with cool nights. These figs produce best in hot areas. Other comments are from Mark Albert (MA) in Ukiah.

...

Fig descriptions

IT 88 - Yellow, very vigorous. Patrick Schafer (PS) says these are worthless, buggy & watery IT 160 - Bourjasotte (MA)
IT 169 - Large green fig with long neck, has breba and main crop, rather bland flavor (PS). IT 176 - no data sent

IT 215 - Yellow-green skin, medium size, round, small eye, will dry on tree, smooth texture, few seeds, mild and sweet. OK to good in flavor (PS)

IT 250 - is Panache, “tiger” fig, unusual green-striped yellow skin. (PS)
IT258 - Thick purple-blue skin, strawberry flesh, medium size, short neck, medium eye, vigorous plant.Good to excellent flavor. Also ok in coastal area. PS says this is the his best (along with #358) of IT collection for his growing conditions. It is his earliest and latest fig each year.

...
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Herman2

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Posted Reply with quote  #13 
This fig,is of Italian origin,that is fact.
It should not be called ,Italian 258:
Mi opinion on it's name:It should be called:Number one best tasting Italian fig of all time.!!!!
It should be a much more self describing name.
figgary

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Posted Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herman2
This fig,is of Italian origin,that is fact.
It should not be called ,Italian 258:
Mi opinion on it's name:It should be called:Number one best tasting Italian fig of all time.!!!!
It should be a much more self describing name.



:-))
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greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #15 
IT258 : it is better than the other best 258 varieties ?
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greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #16 
jdsfrance,

Here are the leaves.
The darker rounder ones under a mesh belong to the Italian 258,
The rest are from the Lampeira Preta.

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HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #17 
Thanks for sharing these great figs, Igor.

I heard once a comment that Todd Kennedy lost the names and then assigned the numbers.  I heard from Pat Schafer either 19 or 31 months ago (at a scion exchange) that the tags on the cuttings were already lost or fallen off (I forget which) when the cuttings were handed to him in Italy.  As such, I do not believe anybody knows the true name but it sure would be nice to get this properly identified.

Mark Albert, who is also mentioned in the CRFG document linked by Igor, and Pat Schafer were both surprised when I told them how popular Italian 258 was.  Neither of them are in ideal climates for growing figs.  Italian 258 has not been passed around through CRFG circles and this has been a bit of a mystery to me.  At Prusch Park, where many of the various trees originated from contributions by Todd Kennedy, Italian 258 is not present.  Oddly, there is a tree on the map listed as Italian 253 which is not shown on the document linked above.  A couple of us thought that perhaps this was Italian 258 and someone's writing was illegible when the list was typed but my Italian 253 tree has produced green fruit with a brown blush, not even close to my Italian 258.

These mysteries can be frustrating but, at the same time, they do make things more interesting.  If we can enjoy the fruit and laugh at our confusion, life is good. :)
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eboone

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Posted Reply with quote  #18 
Would be nice to have some active members in Italy who were fig experts.
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greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #19 
Harvey,

Thank you for the information.
Do you grow a Brogiotto Nero? How different it is from the i258?
I asked an Italian friend and he compared those two as quite similar (only from the photos)

And of course Brogiotto Nero is the Italian synonym for Barnisotte Black. Bourjassotte Noire is the French synonym. See Eisen and Condit for a lengthier list of synonyms.
So who knows what it is....


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Herman2

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Posted Reply with quote  #20 
My Experience:
I  grew Brogiotto nero,which turned out to be an average brown fig,and so I think it was ,a misnomer.
I grew Barnisotte black from US Collection,and the fruits were totally different than Ital 258.
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Posted Reply with quote  #21 
Igor (or are you Joe from Phoenix now?  what's up with that, lol), I don't grow Brogiotto Nero but I do have Bourjassotte Noire, just planted in the ground.  No fruit to compare yet.  FWIW, I don't trust all of the synonyms listed, sometimes they sure seem wrong.

I emailed Todd Kennedy last night in hopes he has any information which we might be able to use to I.D. these.
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greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #22 
Lol!
No clue where that Joe came from , that's funny.
I guess I will leave it since you mentioned.

I read that Violet Solleis is the same as Bourjassotte Noire, no?
I have that one too, with tiny figlets now. With any luck, might see at least a color.

Vasile, thanks for sharing your experience!
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HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #23 
I'm growing both Violette Soleis and did get a fruit from it but had trouble with them being spoiled.  I've heard that Bourjassotte Noire might be the same but also somebody (Keith?) saying they were different, so I will learn myself eventually as will you.
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Posted Reply with quote  #24 
Today I received a reply from Todd Kennedy regarding the history of these figs.  Unfortunately, I don't believe we will make any progress because of this information, but here it is.

Todd imported these in the 1980s, obtaining them from Dr. Giorgio Grassi.  Dr. Grossi had acquired these in southern Italy and was based in Caserta where he had an office.  A few years later he moved to Rome and at that time he took cuttings of the varieties he considered to be unique.  However, in the process of the move, all of his papers were lost, including the names.  So he only retained the numbers he had assigned to them.  Todd looked and did not see any directory listing Dr. Giorgio and assumes he has retired.  

I contacted one friend from Sicily to see if he had ever heard of him but he had not.  I don't think it would make much difference anyways, but at least we know we should probably focus on figs from the south when trying to match these figs.

Grazie!
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tylerj

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Posted Reply with quote  #25 
Is this him Harvey???

http://alvearerdp.altervista.org/portale/?q=node/308   (google this link and hit translate - unless you speak Italian of course lol)
dr. Giorgio Grassi worked several years in the period when directed to Caserta Section for the South dell'Ist.Sperim.Frutticoltura (MiPAAF): studies took place, formed pruners and entrepreneurs, tourist areas in chestnut wood, with excellent achievements that remain today . - See more at: https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=it&u=http://alvearerdp.altervista.org/portale/%3Fq%3Dnode/308&usg=ALkJrhgO_LeDMPhRLdmg6vqfqMUa2lyJRg#sthash.o1fIr1Ua.dpuf

It looks like there is a contact form on the site too.


... I also found this but appears to be old information as he is now retired from there

Experimental Institute for Fruit Rome SOP of Caserta
Via Torrino, 2
81100 Caserta
tel. 0823. 256201/2/3
fax 493 381 0823.
e-mail address on the Internet: isf@ce.flashnet.it
Head: dr. Giorgio Grassi

Former Director of the Experimental Section of Caserta
for Fruit of Rome (now CRA Research Unit for Fruit of Caserta)

dr. Giorgio Grassi worked several years in the period when directed to Caserta Section for the South dell'Ist.Sperim.Frutticoltura (MiPAAF): studies took place, formed pruners and entrepreneurs, tourist areas in chestnut wood, with excellent achievements that remain today . - See more at: https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=it&u=http://alvearerdp.altervista.org/portale/%3Fq%3Dnode/308&usg=ALkJrhgO_LeDMPhRLdmg6vqfqMUa2lyJRg#sthash.o1fIr1Ua.dpuf
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HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #26 
Yes, that seems to be him.  I may have even met him in 2001 at a national chestnut conference in Marradi, might look through some old photos for the fun of it.  But, since he lost his papers, there's likely not much help he can provide.

I'll go ahead and email him anyways just to see if I can get lucky.  Thanks!
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pino

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Posted Reply with quote  #27 
Beautiful figs Greenfig thanks for sharirg!

I didn't want to have to do it.  But I can't help adding I258 to my wish list.

Tyler, great job finding Giorgio's contact info! 

The web site says "Associazione Amici del castagno di Rocca di Papa"
loosely translated "association of friends of the chestnut fortress of the pope"

Does that mean the fig came from one of the Pope's orchards? ....LOL
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greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #28 
A great detective work, guys!!

Harvey, you say that " he moved to Rome and at that time he took cuttings of the varieties he considered to be unique. "

For some reason i258 and maybe i395 became popular and maybe we can say, unique.
How about the other numbered figs, what is special about them?
Have they lost something over time?
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AltadenaMara

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Posted Reply with quote  #29 
Thanks Igor for sharing the pictures of the delicious looking figs. Hope your fig crop did okay in the rain storm today. 
What if the name of the I 258 turns out to be another Paradiso -to add to the confusion already surrounding this name? Aren't half the fig varieties in Italy named Paradiso? Or if it was growing in the Pope's orchard, Paradiso di Papa? Just speculating.....
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greenfig

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Posted Reply with quote  #30 
Thanks for asking, Mara!
It was super nice to have the rain, it woke me up around 4:30 am by some loud banging and me, as a true figaholic, went outside to move the little guys out of the rain's way. I was lucky that no neighbors saw me half naked in the middle of the night running with pots, lol! I am sure somebody would get really concerned and call the authorities :)

As far as the name, I do not really care what it turns out to be , it is just pure fun just trying to find out.
And whoever gets the name first, will have the power to say Yes, it is another Paradiso Nero, or be totally streetwise and pretend that the answer cannot be found. :)
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HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #31 
I don't have reason to believe any of the figs were collected from the pope's orchard.  Pino's comment comes from a site in relationship to more recent work that Dr. Giorgio has done with chestnuts (the gall wasp, by the way, accidentally introduced into Italy from China, has decimated the chestnut crop in recent years).  I was told that he collected the figs from around southern Italy and that many figs were found to be the same.  It is my understanding that the ones that he took with him to Rome were ones he found unique, such as being different from others (no indication of being good or bad).
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pino

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Posted Reply with quote  #32 
Absolutely true Harvey! 
I was just making light of that fact and raised what I thought was an amusing question.

Although anything is possible given there have been 266 Pope's with who knows how many residence/castles/orchards in Italy through the years.  The current Pope has 8 residences around Italy. 
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Posted Reply with quote  #33 

I believe the pope's true purpose of coming to the USA next week is to check out my Italian-numbered fig varieties! :)

Okay, more seriously.... I just received a reply from someone connected to a chestnut group who is very good friends with Dr. Grassi and I was told they would give him my contact information so that he could write me directly. :)  There is still the likelihood that he never found his papers or matched up IDs for the figs in his collection, but we can hope!
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pino

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Posted Reply with quote  #34 
That's a good one Harvey!  I wouldn't be surprised since he has been known to go wandering around in Rome looking for that delicious Roman thin crust pizza.

But seriously if Dr.Grassi can remember even the location where he discovered it I am sure there is someone adventurous enough to go see if they can find the mother tree.  i.e. me since it may be the only way to get this variety into Canada..lol
 
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Posted Reply with quote  #35 
No contact made yet, still waiting.

Pino, I am guessing that Dr. Grassi had collected at least 358 figs from numerous locations (358 is the highest numbered fig I am aware of, 88 being the lowest) and these were collected prior to the mid-1980s.  It seems highly unlikely that he'd remember where he got fig #258 from, etc.  He may remember some of the people that he collected figs from but many of those people are probably no longer alive.  Maybe someone came across his papers at some point since the mid 1980s and sent them to him.  Maybe he's been visited by other fig collectors who helped ID his figs.  Hoping for something but not getting my hopes up too much.
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pino

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Posted Reply with quote  #36 
Harvey
Sounds like Dr Grassi was an avid fig collector hobbyist.  Unfortunately no internet in those days and probably no e-records.
You have put in a great effort on this!
Hopefully someone gets back to you.  If not maybe some one some where will recognize the fig since it is becoming very popular and give an idea on where it originated and maybe the original name.
 
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Posted Reply with quote  #37 
Caserta is just south of the Roman province of Lazio, Caserta is famous for its Buffalo Mozzarella, it is Southern Italy, yes, but really just the beginning of Campania (Naples). Lou Pezzuti is not too far from there. Probably close to the place of origin of the Atreano fig.
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Posted Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pino
Harvey
Sounds like Dr Grassi was an avid fig collector hobbyist.  Unfortunately no internet in those days and probably no e-records.
You have put in a great effort on this!
Hopefully someone gets back to you.  If not maybe some one some where will recognize the fig since it is becoming very popular and give an idea on where it originated and maybe the original name.
 


Pino, Dr. Grassi is a published researcher and there are publications by him on the subject of figs, including Il Fico (128 pages).  I believe it is described as a practical handbook on fig growing (relying on Google translation of citation).  Doing a Google search of "giorgio grassi ficus carica" gives numerous results.

No word back yet from Dr. Grassi....waiting
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pino

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Posted Reply with quote  #39 
Thanks Harvey, I see now!

Sounds like he is a well known researcher and expert on figs and chestnuts. 
Looks like he is only 74 was born in the northen Italy but worked and studied figs in  Southern Italy; Cosenza, Calabria for a long time.  Cosenza is the big fig producer in Italy.
As you mentioned he has published several papers I managed to download 2 of his publications;  
Manuale Pratico di Coltivazione e trasformazione dei FICHI DI COSENZA
and also Dottato di Cosenza.
But his bigger work "il fico" seems to be hardcopy only in various Italian libraries.  Although Google Books has an entry for it.
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Posted Reply with quote  #40 
In my searches I also came up with the fact that one of his publications was already posted here and Brent did a great job translating it for us!  (sorry, this contains nothing about Italian 258)

http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=6222716
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Posted Reply with quote  #41 
Harvey, you missed IT 376 and IT 395 in your count of 358 possible figs that Dr. Grassii collected. Surely you have at least IT 376 in your collection (pretty sure you don't have IT 395 per a prior conversation we had).

This has been discussed elsewhere recently, but it appears that IT 395 and Longue d'Aout may be related or synonymous. I've got both and there are definitely similarities. My Ld'A is a couple years older than than my IT 395 and finished ripening its figs last week while IT 305 has yet to ripen even one this season, though I did get two from it last year, my first from this 3rd year tree, and they did resemble Ld'A, though longer and skinnier. My IT 395 also set a much larger crop this year. Nothing I've observed thus far has me leaning one way or the other regarding their relationship.
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Posted Reply with quote  #42 
Thanks for reminding me, Neil.  Forgot about those!
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Posted Reply with quote  #43 
Any update Harvey on contacting Dr.Grassii?
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Posted Reply with quote  #44 
Nope. Will follow-up when I can.
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Posted Reply with quote  #45 
Interesting research by Dr Grassii!
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"The best way to show my gratitude is to accept everything, even my problems, with joy." ~ Mother Teresa  
"Do not pass by a man in need for you may be the hand of God to him." ~Proverbs 3:27~  
"He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed, miracles that cannot be counted." ~Job 5:4

 
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