Again sorry its a link to another forum i posted on. i have had alot of success with microproagation but have never been able to culture figs. if anybody know how please share. and pics would be nice.

dave

link
http://www.gardeningclub.com/community/forums/aft/40643

Springerlink has a lot of articles for free for the holiday season.  There are a few on micropropagation of figs.  Download the PDFs.  They'll be back to $30 each soon. Check and see if your nearest university library has Protocols for Micropropagation of Woody Trees and Fruits  2007.  Chapter 37 is on figs (PP 409-416)

Thanks Bob, i will deffenatly get right on that. there is so much stuff out the its hard to find exactly what your looking for sifting through thousands of pages. If the library has it and i like i might just have to buy a copy. thanx again.

Dave

The U should give you guest access to print those 8 pages.  The book on CD is over $200.  On springerlink just search for micropropagation ficus carica.

"The reference manual for woody plant propagation," Dirr and Heuser, has a chapter on tissue culturing.  It offered at the AHS and I think Amazon,  far cheaper than the expensive college reference book and the basics at the right level for small use use or a try. I have done it three times, twice with success. My thoughts to date is it is worth the mess and time for a special or rare one where most stock I have access to is contaminated with FMV.

Happy Thanksgiving folks, and safe travels

That's a great book but different trees need different protocols   The pages referenced give specific protocols that work for our fig trees.  They are complementary, though.  The Reference Manual has great info on setting up a tissue culture lab which is assumed as already done by Protocols.

Yes, I have both books, however, for those wishing to read the basics, was trying to state other options are there for those not wishing to spend $200.

I have cultured blackberries and other bramble fruits, and bananas fairly well but never had luck with figs as of yet. any info in regards that can get me to that point would make me happier than beaver in a saw mill.

Sorry if I wasn't Clear.  No one interested in only figs should buy a $200 CD that only has 8 pages on figs.  Your friendly neighborhood tax supported university should be able to help you print the 8 pages of interest for about $1. 

The Reference Manual has great info on grafting and other propagation techniques as well as an introduction to setting up a lab and prepping the specimen.  A cheaper book, coming out in 4th edition this Spring is Plants from Test Tubes: An Introduction to Micropropagation.  It's only about setting up a lab and has some sample protocols.  No info on grafting or other types of propagation.

Even cheaper is to watch some of the videos on youtube    :)

Dave, go here  The first 2 articles are on fig micropropagation.  click on d/l PDF and they'll appear on your screen.  You can save them to your hard drive.  After this holiday promotion is over it will cost a lot of $$ to do that so do it soon.  For the book, take the info I gave you to your nearest tax supported university and they'll help you get the pages you need.

Thank you got it downloaded. i want to cultur various things and have done a few. just havent had any luck with figs

Dave (or anyone else who got this downloaded),
Can you send me a pdf of chapter 37 of Protocols (pp 409 - 416)?  I just went to download it... they've taken away the free access already (just let you read the first 2 pages, but pay to see more).  Stupid me to have waited to download.  I did download a couple of other articles (e.g. the Fraguas et al, 2004 paper).

Mike

Dave, are you a member of the HTC group?  Folks are usually very helpful there although I see someone else posted the same question over there in October and didn't get a reply.  There are some professionals and very experienced hobbyists in the group that have come to help in the past.  One member heads up the lab for a farming company with about 72,000 acres of tree crops here in California.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/hometissueculture/message/30615

Maybe you could bump this post.  Good luck.

no harvey, but it looks like a group i should get in with. i am trying to get my ducks lined up and go back to school. see about taking my generals online to at least get them out of the way.

I recently bought a Blue Ischia fig from Hirtsgardens.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/290782329328?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

It is a puny/small (but healthy) 4" plant with a 1/8" stem and 1" leaves  ... and sooo ...  it most likely was reproduced from tissue culture?

Also, it may be the (infamous/good) Ischia Black, which any twig-rooting notoriously maintains its severe FMV infection.

I'll wait/experiment/see for myself ... so far, it seems to be FMV free ...

Yeah, but what we really want to see is if it's a Black Ischia or another name for brown turkey.  :)

Mike, the book pages were never available for free online.  You have to get them from your local University.  It should be very inexpensive there.

And the guy who got no answer in Oct?  That was me  :)

Actually they are available online:

http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/agrobacterium/superkuh.com/library/Biology/Agrobacterium/Protocols%20for%20Micropropagation%20of%20Woody%20 Trees%20and%20Fruits_%20S%20Mohan%20Jain_%20H%20Ha ggman_%202007.pdf

Large file so make sure you have a high speed connection

Clearly the blog site of a biological student or researcher:  beware of copyright laws before you attept to distribute or sell. for educational download use only.

http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/agrobacterium/superkuh.com/library/Biology/Agrobacterium/

Thanks for the reference links.  I've begun reading Protocols... been interested in this topic (not sure if I'll try anything with it yet, but interested).  

Mike

Duarte Nursery does tissue culture of many different trees and vines and I toured their facilities a few years ago.  I met the Director of Research that heads up the TC lab, Javier Castillon.  You might try emailing him to see if he might help. first name and then @duartenursery.com according to his business card.  I'm curious what varieties they're interested in working on.

Strong work, Jack!

After reading a post about this fig I broke down and purchased one too out of curiosity.  I thought it looked like an elm tree seedling when it arrived.  Can anyone explain why a tissue culture grows differently than a cutting initially?  Does a Blue Ischia variety exist?  I wonder where this name came from?  I wonder if they would be interested in trying to produce FMV free Ischia Black varieties if tissue culture techniques can eliminate it?

That is great progress.  Do yo have the mini greenhouse inside?  I haven't given mine any special attention yet but having seen your progress I think I'll put some more effort into getting it to grow inside.  I thought mine looked like an elm tree seedling out of the box.

[QUOTE=SCfigFanatic]I bought the same plant from the same source.
The first picture was on 10/5/12 when I got it.
The second picture was from today. I pulled it from my mini greenhouse
with 14 hours of light daily.
Not trying to help seller of this fig, it looks nothing like
they advertise by their picture.

class="bbc_img">




class="bbc_img">

It does have leaf rust....

Doug[/QUOTE]

I have to ask:  

• Why (and how) can tissue culture propagation techniques result in a tree that is free of FMV, if the initial source of the tissue sample is a tree with FMV?
• Wouldn't the tissue culture propagate the FMV viruses, just as it propagates the tree itself?  
• Or is there something in the process that kills the viruses but doesn't kill the tree tissue?  
• Or are you assuming that it's possible to to get a small sample of virus-free tissue from an FMV-infected tree? 

I don't know anything about these tissue culture techniques either but I seem to recall a discussion that new fast growing growth might not yet have the FMV in the cells.  I think it takes something like an electron microscope to see a virus.  A FMV free tree might stay free of the virus longer in the North East but would have a good chance of getting infected again in warmer regions.  Does UC Davis conduct research on FMV?

[QUOTE=MichaelTucson]I have to ask:  

• Why (and how) can tissue culture propagation techniques result in a tree that is free of FMV, if the initial source of the tissue sample is a tree with FMV?
• Wouldn't the tissue culture propagate the FMV viruses, just as it propagates the tree itself?  
• Or is there something in the process that kills the viruses but doesn't kill the tree tissue?  
• Or are you assuming that it's possible to to get a small sample of virus-free tissue from an FMV-infected tree? 

Citrus are supposedly cleaned up of viruses by culturing the new shoots which are not yet infected.  Tissue culture methods also will sometimes treat cultures with compounds to kill viruses, I believe, though I don't know if this is always successful.

The Sierra and Sequoia varieties which I bought (Jon bought some of these from me and resold them) were bought from a nursery in Madeira, CA (nurseryman had died and wife was liquidating) that had been propagated by TC, but I don't know where or how. I only spoke with the wife briefly as life was very chaotic for her with everything that she was having to deal with.

tissue culture is soposed to produce plantlets free of virus or other problems. unlock hidden genetics, or even play around with genetics. it doesnt seem like it would be very hard to find the cause of fmv ie cells attacked, certain protines, etc and possibly isolate it thus creating a strain that is immune. however i donot have the knowladge of such things. right now i do tc as a hobbie but am looking on going to school for advance horticulter and genetics with a minor in biz managment sometime next year. if i get in the situation to where i can figure it out i will share what i have learned with every one along with cuttings :)

I like the set up doug, though o have the lights and stuff set up i dont think i will get the wife onboard with the greenhouse in the house.

[quote=Harvey]Citrus are supposedly cleaned up of viruses by culturing the new shoots which are not yet infected.  Tissue culture methods also will sometimes treat cultures with compounds to kill viruses, I believe, though I don't know if this is always successful.[/quote]
So do you know if new fig shoots are free of virus?  I had never heard this... do you know it to be true?  Or, do you know of tissue culture propagation of figs that has successfully resulted in a non-FMV-infected explant?  (after starting with an infected plant I mean).  As for treating with compounds to kill viruses, I'm not aware of any compounds that will kill the four (or more) viruses that cause FMV without also killing their host (fig tree) cells.

[quote=Dave]tissue culture is soposed to produce plantlets free of virus or other problems. unlock hidden genetics, or even play around with genetics. it doesnt seem like it would be very hard to find the cause of fmv ie cells attacked, certain protines, etc and possibly isolate it thus creating a strain that is immune.[/quote]
Can you provide an example of someone who has successfully found the molecular markers and/or molecular vectors and then gone on to isolate uninfected ficus carica cells?  I'm not aware of any... (doesn't mean it hasn't been done, but I haven't heard of it yet... seems like that would be pretty big news).

I have heard other people indicate that using TC propagation starting with a source from an infected tree has resulted in infected explant clonal offspring.  That seems to make sense to me, unless someone can successfully isolate the non-infected cells of the source tree.  (Incidentally, I also bought a couple of fig trees from Hirt's, though not via the ebay outlet, rather their Amazon outlet and their direct web site... though I cannot confirm that they used TC to propagate these plants, both of them had FMV infections by the time they reached me).  

So I go back to my questions:
[quote=me]I have to ask:  

• Why (and how) can tissue culture propagation techniques result in a tree that is free of FMV, if the initial source of the tissue sample is a tree with FMV?
• Wouldn't the tissue culture propagate the FMV viruses, just as it propagates the tree itself?  
• Or is there something in the process that kills the viruses but doesn't kill the tree tissue?  
• Or are you assuming that it's possible to to get a small sample of virus-free tissue from an FMV-infected tree? 

There was a study using shoot tips in hopes that they were not yet infected with FMV as explained above.  Then they used some warming time to try to weaken any virus that might have been around.  They claimed success in eliminating FMV.

The tissue culture process in itself does NOT produce a FMV free plant.   There are two processes being confused here.  Or maybe not confused, but not understood to be both needed to get the desired cleaned up plant.   Thermotherapy and Micropropagation.

Thermotherapy is the process in which the plant is grown under warm conditions.  Most of the time about 100 degree days and 95 degree nights for a constant 3-4 weeks.   The viruses under this condition cannot migrate or make it to the meristem tip.   The tip is harvested and then the tip(s) are grown in vitro or micropropagated.  They can be brought up through that process to make another clone of the the mother plant.  I'm simplifying here....   often these plants need to be grown out and tested and taken through that process multiply times and tested using complex mean to make sure they are clean before going ahead with Tissue culture on a larger scale.  This in the case of a fig could take several months if not years.

Micropropagation/Tissue culture is just the process of taking smaller parts of the plants, not always the meristem, and multiplying them in a sterile culture.   If the starting material isn't cleaned up via Thermotherapy and verified to be clean beforehand using various testing, you will not have clean plants by micropropagation alone.

Many e-bay sellers claim that their plants are reproduced by tissue culture (micropropagated).  This may be true, but watch out for anyone saying that reproducing them by tissue culture has made them guaranteed to be clean.   It's very unlikely.  The only people that would have the time, patience, money to do all this work for any economical good (an economical good for figs has never been proven has it?)would maybe be a nursery that is supplying clean plants to a plantation somewhere and they have extra plants.....  but that's very unlikely.

I am not saying cleanning a fig of fmv has or hasnt been done but simply the means is there to do it with research and someone smarter than myself. i am going to be going back to school to try and get the smarts and education to take my hobby a little further. in theroy i dont see why it would not be possible to get a fmv resistant plant. the posibility is there. and i want to explore it. it may take years and i promis nothing other than i myself am willing to try.

ELIMINATION OF FIG MOSAIC FROM FIG SHOOT-TIP CULTURES BY THERMOTHERAPY

ISHS Acta Horticulturae 480: I International Symposium on Fig

To answer your question. Yes it's possible. Just not by using TC as the sole means of doing so.

virus by definition is RNA/DNA in a shell/capsule. once it penetrates into a cell, it will in corporate into the DNA of the host sell to produce whatever protein it was program to produce. if the cell is infected, it will have that RNA/DNA in it. when cell division occurs, the resulting cells will have the same sequence of the RNA/DNA that infected parent cell had.

now.. if you think about it.. new plant generated by infected cell will result in bunch of infected cells making up the plant.

thermotherapy is used to suppress the activity of the virus, and hopefully stop the protein production or denature the viral RNA/DNA/protein. it might work, it might not work. some virus are tougher to treat than others.

Here is a paper that maybe of interest

Another paper

[QUOTE=MichaelTucson]So do you know if new fig shoots are free of virus?  I had never heard this... do you know it to be true?  Or, do you know of tissue culture propagation of figs that has successfully resulted in a non-FMV-infected explant?  (after starting with an infected plant I mean).  As for treating with compounds to kill viruses, I'm not aware of any compounds that will kill the four (or more) viruses that cause FMV without also killing their host (fig tree) cells.[/QUOTE]

Michael, I wrote that I was only aware of tip culture being used in citrus, although Bob has posted information about it's use in figs subsequent to my post.  A paper on it's use in citrus can be found at http://www.fspublishers.org/ijab/past-issues/IJABVOL_9_NO_1/5.pdf

I've toured the facilities at http://fpms.ucdavis.edu/ (they handled a nursery group's sponsorship of importing chestnut cultivars) and they are very often cleaning up material in their lab.  They only gave a brief explanation during the tour and showed material in autoclave, etc. so I only know enough to be dangerous.  If someone wanted to pay enough money, they would probably be capable of cleaning up Black Madeira or whatever.  This facility is across the street (south) of the USDA GRIN offices and is separate from UCD but located on campus property.

I just wrote my contact at Foundation Plant Services to ask him if he had ever worked with figs or knew of anyone who had.

Jack:

That is some amazing research!  And only a few months old. Where did you find this? Thanks for posting. 

So my original statement is somewhat true, sure it's "possible" to clean them up with thermotherapy, but not by the average fig fanatic, however the likely hood of keeping the plant clean doesn't look very promising.

There is quite a bit in there that if read by some of the long time Fig 4 Fun Forum members here, would shatter some of their long time beliefs.  The view of some people that "all figs have the virus" is probably more likely to be true and the folks that believe their plants are clean, are probably not correct in that belief.   Even in symptom free samples, the virus is detected.

The other commonly stated belief that only Mites transmit the disease is disproved in the research.  Mealy bugs, Aphids, & mechanical transmission are all talked about as possible means of transmission.  

This topic is so talked about on this forum that I hope people take the time to read this.

Thanks again.

I am a former professor so have access to many published journals in various acedemic forums.  The microbiology books referenced apparently were scanned by a researcher looking at the subject we are debating here so quite handy! Enjoy.

I had a feeling you had to have some connections. Again, thanks for sharing with all of us.

I wrote in post #40 that I had contacted FPS.  He replied today:
[QUOTE]Hi Harvey,

From what I know, it is nearly impossible to keep figs from contracting the mosaic viruses, the vectors of the virus are ubiquitous. I don’t think that serious efforts have been made to propagate figs free of virus because of that.

That being said, I do know that Duarte Nursery in Hughson is propagating figs in tissue culture, small tips cut under sterile conditions and grown initially in test tubes. I believe that work is being done just for propagation purposes, not for disease elimination.

I do have one fig variety here, I believe it is called Sierra (?), that was bred by Jim Doyle of UC, but it looks like it has fig mosaic. FPS does not work with figs other than maintaining this one variety.[/QUOTE]

Harvey, would you ask him what protocol they use?  Thanks.

He's not doing fig TC at FPS but Duarte Nursery is.  I'll send you a PM about that.

Do not want to hijack thread but can you TC a fruit, such as a watermelon or kiwi, if so where would you take the culture from, the vine, the melon rind, the seed ?????

you can culture seeds but if i were doing it i would start with node tissue on active growing vines, or tips.

Wow Thanks Jack for the links...

This discussion has renewed my interest in attempting to eradicate RBDV in some rare Rubus species via TC, and thermotherapy.   something of a plague in Rubus as apparently FMV is in figs.

Look at all the ones on this ARS GRIN database that are listed as infected accessions..
https://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/53581500/catalogs/rubyellow.html

I've written a few times in this thread about Duarte Nursery and thought I'd give an update.  Today I was at Wolfskill, USDA's repository (NOT UCD! LOL, USDA curator John Preece even made the point of telling guests at the mulberry/prunus tasting to "stay out of the UCD side").

Anyways...Howard was there and I chatted with him about figs and how things were shaping up this year, etc. and talk came to the effects of FMV being worse in some figs than others.  He said that Duarte Nursery had obtained material from them and indexed the material for FMV, finding as many as 7 strains in some accessions.  I asked him if they were cleaning it up and he said yes, but that it wouldn't make any difference.  I stated it would probably help the trees become established faster and he agreed and also said that in some isolated locations the benefits could be longer-lasting.

Here's a link on doing tissue culture in your kitchen. I dont know if it would work on figs. It would be interesting to try it. http://www.kitchenculturekit.com/StiffAffordablePTCforhobbyists.htm

Florida Hill Nursery sells  tissue-cultured fig varieties including "Black Mission" , and claims that they are virus free.

I bought 7 tiny "Black Mission" trees from them, and they a 10 times the size that they were last year.  Originally, they shipped trees having  skinny little stems were no fatter that the stems that support a normal-size fig leaf.  Today, these same seven trees are about two ft. tall, healthy, and show no symptoms of FMV.  I am particularly happy that I am growing  symptom-free "Black Mission". 

I believe they are selling "Black Mission"...."Brown Turkey"...."Green-Ischia"...."Celeste"...."LSU Purple"


Just some information.





Frank

@ Bronx Figs...Frank, back during the winter I purchased 2 small tissue culture 'Ischia Blue' trees(probably Ischia Black) on line...they had the same thin branches that you talk about in your previous post...but now 4 months later they, they have doubled in size and are filling out nicely with three main trunks on each tree and lots of leaves...a close inspection of the leaves shows no sign of FMV(yet), and I'm hoping that they remain clear of the virus as they mature...the funny thing about the purchase was that I originally paid $6.00 and change for one tree, but when it arrived I found that there were two root balls in the same little 4" pot...so after separating them, I now have two healthy Ischia Blue fig trees for a little over $3.00 each.

Vince...

Good for you.  Bargains, and free, are always the best!  Even at $6.00 p/tree it's still worth it.   These tissue cultured plants are probably transplanted as tiny clumps of cells, into plug-trays, and then grown on to the selling stage.  Hope your trees live long and prosper.   You too.

I am very happy with the trees that Florida Hill sent to me.  I am hoping for some great things from my "Black Mission" trees in the coming seasons.  It's almost impossible to find FMV-free "Blk. Mission"...but, I think I may have done just that.  Not a spot on any of the leaves, and they are healthy and vigorous.  I'll bet by the end of this season they will be 5 ft. tall with at least 3/4" main-stems.  Not too shabby for trees originally shipped with 1/8" thick stems!  I definitely would order again from this nursery.

I wish they would start tissue-culturing some other, more sought after varieties instead of "Brown Turkey" and "Celeste"...both very commonly found, and both could be problematic re: no taste, and dropping figs.  Too bad organizations like UC Davis doesn't use these techniques instead of sending out contaminated wood.

Keep us posted on the "Blue Ischia".


Frank

Thanks Frank...when I pulled the trees out of the 4" pot I was expecting to find traditional root balls...what I found were two gauze type sacks about the size of a large pecan nut with these skinny little branches coming out of the them...I had never seen a tissue culture plant before, and I wasn't even sure what it was...so I just put them into 1gal. pots and they took off from there...best of luck with all your Black Mission trees, and have a great Summer.

[QUOTE]Too bad organizations like UC Davis doesn't use these techniques instead of sending out contaminated wood.[/QUOTE]

Because someone would have to pay the bills for doing it. In addition, since UC Davis (edit: or however you want to refer to the cutting source) is in California, any supposed virus free tree would soon be contaminated from the thousands and thousands of infected trees growing in the state. Besides, with tissue culture, there is no garauntee of success.

The virus did not just spring from nowhere overnight. Figs and FMV evolved together in Mediterranean regions, and likely was spread in ancient times with cuttings and of course mites. Many believe all figs have it to some degree, but that at times it is not evident due to care or environment, or particular varieties are less prone to showing symptoms.

I think a big part of the problem in spreading more serious FMV (more than one strain) comes from large collections in warmer climates where multiple strains of the virus can infect the same tree. I've never gotten anything from UC Davis directly, but I do have a couple Celeste trees (cuttings from Jon, originally from ?) that are the most pathetic, gnarrled things. It would not be a surprise if it had several strains of virus - or it could just be a particularly susceptible variety. If you get cuttings from any collector in California or other warmer climes, expect the worst. Especially if they too are growing trees form UC Davis, or perhaps are doing any grafting.

Thanks Gina....

Just wishful thinking on my part.  Now, I know the rest of the story.  Reality bites.


Frank

UC Davis doesn't have any fig trees.  If the USDA repository were to clean up their entire collection they would all need to be grown in screenhouses to maintain them as FMV free.

I don't know if Florida Hills Nursery is selling FMV free trees or not but I'd be skeptical of any nursery doing this on a relatively small scale like they are doing as it is quite costly.  They seem to dabble in a little bit of every thing.  Duarte Nursery works with millions of each of the lines they normally sell and are just starting in figs but I'd imagine they are still looking at selling at least 10,000 of each to recoup their costs and make a profit.

[QUOTE]UC Davis doesn't have any fig trees. If the USDA repository ...[/QUOTE]

Yes, of course. But UC Davis is both easier to type and remember - and most people know what is meant. ;)

Some one was talking about figs in cooler climates showing way less to no fmv signs. Maybe the cold kills off the fmv in the exposed limbs. I have noticed no signs of fmv until around aug-sep. My theroy is that the cold does slow down or kill the fmv but still lives in the roots and works its way back up. So if this is the case then it would make sence why you would want to culture freash shoots but still think it would be a waste of time other than mass propagation.

I believe that most of those mail order nurseries are getting their plants and figs from Agristart. They are wholesalers and actually produce tissue cultured starts and sell wholesale lots (figs were $1.50 each last year), this was discussed last year in another tissue culture topic. I have purchased several different tissue cultured fig cultivars (all that are listed at Agristart) and have posted positively about them in the past. I am hopeful that my Blue Ischia in not the Ischia listed at agristart (I already had one).

Dave (garden_whisperer), ... Herman2 had posted on his observations...
I have also read past post about suckers having healthier growth and appearance than their mother trees. This observation seems to be true for my Violet De Bordeaux from EL. Attached pictures are of the mother tree showing FMD in leaves and of the sucker that was separated this past winter. The sucker had normal leaves last year and has not shown any visible signs of FMD on its leaves this year. This may possibly be another way of producing healthier plants! This observation and Herman2's observation are actually complimentary. In colder zones the plants may die back in cold winters and re-grow shoots (suckers) from below soil line in spring.

VDB mother tree 6/23/2013... note deformed and mottled leaves, typical for 50% of total leaves.


VDB sucker 9/30/2012 with the start of leaf rust. Figs were pinched because they would not have had time to mature.


VDB sucker 6/22/2013

Dave hear where our stored trees see temps in the teens grown in pots Fmv shows the same the following year .
I have seen it wane though as plant matures but always there .

well Martin i guess that shoots that theroy full of holes then. i wonder why my plants only show fmv in late summer and fall just before going dormant.

Not sure take my VdB for example mine shows it during early season as summer marches along it wanes.
I would not see it as shooting a hole in anyones theory its just folks observe different things going on in own yard in there location and may not being the norm in anothers yard.  ; )

Yes Martin I understand that. Just observing the fact that your yard and mine are only a few hours apart. Your winters being cooler than mine. So if my theroy were correct then you should observe close to what I have or even better results. Unless if all of you figs are potted and in a controlled temp over winter.

Bump. Has anyone tried home tissue culture of fig trees successfully and any suggestions from the home lab? It sounds interesting.