Revised and pix added  04-07-2013

I continue to use my "new bag" method.



I am using a mix of Perlite (85+%) and well chopped sphagnum moss (15% or less).



What is new is that the Perlite is screened to remove anything that will fit through 1/4" screen. I became convinced that no matter how coarse the large pieces, it was the small pieces that were the problem. particularly the finer sand like pieces.



This is the "raw" perlite, though most of the "dust" and really fine particles have already been winnowed away.



After screening. The left pile is 1/4" or larger, the middle pile 3/32" to 1/4" and the right pile is smaller than 3/32". Again, the dust and extreme fines were already removed.







This is my newest screen box with 1/4" screen and 1 x 8 sides. (I have several different boxes.)



This is the mesh in my IKEA waste basket.

That has led to a better air/moisture balance in my rooting mix, I am further convinced that the s. moss has some definite anti-mold affects. In the greenhouse maybe 1 cutting in 1000 gets moldy. I have eliminated the 5% compost from the rooting mix. I still feel that it provides some rooting-hormone affect, but came to believe that it was also a source of micro-organisms, or some such thing, that might also be leading to rotting, even is it was very well composted. It still isn't 100%, but no method ever will be because of variability in cuttings and their quality, but so far this season success rate has been 90% or more. Some cuttings have been slower to root, and more may ultimately fail, but early mortality has been very low.

I also took the shade cloth off of the top of the greenhouse (translucent plastic top) so that they get a good dose of diffused sunlight. Direct sunlight on the cuttings will cook them and/or dry them out. Burying 90% of the cutting in the rooting mix aids in preventing drying out. I no longer believe that light is not necessary. As soon as they have leaves they get as much diffused sunlight as possible (I may add some grow lights), believing that the photosynthesis helps drive the root development much like it does in an air-layer. It also helps acclimate the leaves to light and sunlight which has greatly reduced the transition time.





Then comes comes moving to 1 gallon pots. At this stage, with good root development, I am using Perlite (65%), again screened, but using anything 1/8" and above. This has greatly increased drainage by, again, eliminating the very fine particles in the Perlite. To this I am adding 35% very well screened/sifted aged compost. The screening removes any larger particles that are still decomposing and that, in my opinion, may laso tend to help compost my new roots. I water directly in the center of the pot, and do not water the entire amount of potting soil, just directly around the cutting. This allows the drier material at the outer areas of the mix to absorb and wick any excess water. Then they go into the greenhouse at 80/90F (maybe more in early afternoon). They are on the top shelves and get full diffused sunlight.




Newly potted.

So far this season I have only lost 1 or 2 plants out of a couple hundred in the potting transition process, so I think this is proving to be a winner. It is controlling the water levels well through drainage and wicking.

When they are stable and showing new growth (a week or two), they move to a greenhouse (the cheapo, plastic one from Big Lots - a lot of issues, but have re-engineered it enough to make it work). It is unheated, but gets quite warm in the sunlight. I let them have morning and later afternoon direct sun for a week or so, and then full sun. The greenhouse is very humid and there is enough water vapor/moisture to fog the plastic cover which helps diffuse the sunlight.







Another week, or so, and they move to mostly sun out doors. There they have done well. No losses outside the greenhouse, to date.

It would be nice to plan on 'shading the sun', here in Seattle, we had a 2 day spring sun that got us all moving fast and today, it is back to gray and rain...I wish somebody could remember to tell me why in the world I came to grow my own roots here. 

Jon, your description is very helpful and your percentage of loses are amazing. keep it up.

I love it about the screening of the perlite.  Excellent advice! 

Mike

Great info. Thanks!

[QUOTE=FiggyFrank]Great info. Thanks! [/QUOTE]

+1

Thanks Jon.

Jon, great info, thanks! Could you elaborate on the compost part, please? How do you make it and what goes into it?

Hi Jon,

How large are the holes in the screens you use?  Do you use a box frame screener and, if so, where does one get something like that?  Do you use a filter mask when screening the perlite?

Thanks,

noss

For rooting, 1/4", for potting 1/8". I am using 1/4 in hardware cloth nailed to a wood frame that I made from 1 x 6. Of the other, I an using a wire mesh trash can from IKEA until I find some wire screen or mesh that is the right size. Actually off to the metal supply house today to see what they might have. I want to make a drum type sifter with a crank that will take at least a half a bag of Perlite at a time (2 CF). You can use a filter. I use a nice fan to blow the finest dust away, sort of like winnowing wheat.

So far it is time consuming, so am working on ways to make it quicker and easier, such as the drum sifter.

I use this small sifter for sifting out vermicompost as well as perlite dust:



http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/Vermicompost-worm-castings-harvester-for-fertilizer-4798858


It's pretty small but a larger version could be easily made

Got me new screen today. More pix to follow.

Jon, sure wish you had posted this a few months ago.   I ended up experiencing the same issue with "fine" perlite.    

New to this and just hatching out my first cuttings!   I dutifully followed all recommendation from cutting start to cupping and was having 100% success.   But, then some of the roots in certain cultivars started turning brown and rotting.  I dissected one and found that all the “fine” perlite had settled near the bottom (where most roots are) and turned to mush.   It simply wasn’t draining or wicking away.   Funny thing is, I have got in the habit of just sorta weighing the cups to get a feel for water.   They felt about right, just couldn’t see that all water was in the bottom…..urgh.

Anyway, not knowing any better, I was buying perlite at local garden stores or HD.  I thought the stuff looked awfully fine but, let it slide.  After discovery of problem, I bought a huge bag of coarse perlite and will re-cup or move to one gallon, salvaging as many babies as possible.    

Thanks again for this timely tip, you’ve confirmed my amateur’s suspicions and I won’t repeat on the few cuttings still to come out of the cooker.

Jack,  I have always known this, but was not practicing it as rigorously as I should have been. Getting in touch with my inner fig-nazi.

Pix added today.

I love your super A+++ info. Where did you get your bags? You can get a good screen from a gold pan supply store or a Veg Diesel supply.

Zone 8
Southwest TX

WOW!!!! What a great set up you have, you make it look foolproof. In depth and very informative, thanks for sharing :o)

This is the "screen" I found on Friday to make my new tumbler from. It is perforated stainless steel with 3/16" holes. $22 for a 24 x 48" piece, which will make a 15" diameter drum.

Info on bags, etc. is at Growing Tips

Where's you get the perfed steel?

Industrial Metal Supply.

Jon,
Thanks for this info and the updates.

I have been experimenting with rooting hormone and had been having 100% rooting success rate but a very high failure rate once cupped (50%). I have traced the problem to not enough drainage. The ends of the cuttings were sitting in the smaller material that settled to the bottom and caused the cutting end to rot. The cuttings  created lots of roots, but the "plumbing" had not been created. Although I am not using the new baggie method, your advise is completely applicable. I will be implementing on my next batch of cuttings. As always I seem to come full circle back to your recommendations.

Pictures of Failure...

Pete, that is what I have tried to convey: it is not so much about the method, but much more about meeting the requirements or principles. Cup, bag, box, whatever. The secret (other than the clear "color") is what goes in the container, not the container itself. Granted different containers may be more appropriate in different situations, but the principle still needs to be satisfied - too much water is a problem.

I have been playing with the Clonex hormone, this year, and have had some very promising results. It is a little hard to sort it out completely because i make the change in particle size and from compost to sphagnum moss at almost the same time (the hormone did come later after the change in rooting mix was looking promising), so any or all of these things may be part of all of the increase in success.

The Clonex (same as the stuff used with the root riot cubes) is a little pricey, but when I looked at the potential benefit, it was nothing. If I have 3 more successful rootings, which I can then sell, it pays for itself, and a 300 ml bottle will do approx. 500 cuttings. So if I get 1% better success, it is more than paid for. It does seem to be encouraging more roots, and fatter roots at the end of the cuttings, and the % success on some varieties which previously has low % success, seems to be much, much better.

Jon,
I wanted to say thanks again for getting my success rate (cupped) back over 90%.
Here are two cuttings that were rooted in sphagnum moss and potted in sifted Perlite, Granite and shredded long fibered sphagnum. These pictures were taken today at 31 days from placing in sphagnum. They have been cupped in 32 oz. deli containers for 10 days. All visible roots are 10 days old! The roots have completely filled the containers and are being air pruned at the soil line. These cuttings are not in a humidity dome.
  

Most of the hardware stores here have 1/4" hardware cloth, but it took a little searching to find 1/8" mesh.  But I eventually found some at a small old local hardware store.  So far I've been screening just perlite with it  (thanks again for the idea), but I bought some more of both the 1/4" and the 1/8", and deciding whether to make a bucket sifters or make boxes like in Jon's picture.  (So far I've just used the screen alone, but that's temporary since I spill a lot around the edges that way).  

I started using the perlite with chopped sphagnum moss too.  I had also observed the apparent mold-inhibiting effect of the sphagnum, but until the most recent couple of cuttings I'd also been using a small amount of promix in the rooting medium.  I like your idea Jon, of just perlite and chopped sphagnum, so I've switched to that.  (I re-cupped a few of the cuttings that seemed to have stalled... including a Black Madeira that turned out to have a reasonable set of roots, but they were short (only about 1/2" long), and no tops.  Hoping the new mixture in the perforated cups will help give it a jump-start.  I re-cupped a Havasu Purple unknown also, that was wilting (probably from too much moisture but not sure).  Fingers crossed on these plus a few others that I tried (Paonazzo di San Colombano, and Brogiotto Nero Romano).  Though my previous mix (80% perlite and 10% promix and 10% unchopped sphagnum) was yielding pretty good success, I'm hopeful this will be even better, especially at avoiding mold.  Fingers crossed, and thanks again for the ideas.

Mike   central NY state, zone 5

Jon,

     You should peg this topic toward the top of the forum.

BUMP! I am just bumping up this thread that member ascpete was kind enough to provide to me in my screened perlite topic. Thought this topic of Jon's would be of interest to members, especially during this time or the year :)

I was at a local greenhouse and they are selling #2 and #4 sized perlite. It seemed to me that the #3 would have been the best size. Does anyone have any idea about the sizes of the perlite?

You may want to contact the manufacture of the perlite and ask them which screen they use for their horticultural perlite. For most purposes #6 screen (just smaller than 3mm) or larger will be a good size.

Pete,
Pictures you show in post #20 is what happens to my cuttings now.
I have drastically reduced the moisture content and eliminated fine particles.
Cuttings stop growing new white roots, (some cups were almost rootbound), roots take this brownish color, roots, appear dry like air pruned.
Cuttings newer complete pushing previously swollen buds.
Cuttings Just sit like this for weeks.
I have examined them and there is no rot.
The bark is perfectly healthy. Some were even green under the bark and juicy, other rather dry.
Some cuttings were dry and hollow like a pipe though.
How to explain this?

Perfect timing for this conversation as I have make a trip to Carolina Perlite to get a few bags for my orchid mixes.  Oddly enough my dad had made sifters for me a long time ago and they are perfect.  They were originally made for sifting fossils out of creeks but have been used for many other things since then.
Jon is right about s-moss having anti fungal, bacterial and molding properties.  At Wellsweep Farm I remember that they use living s-moss to root very difficult cuttings.  Orchid people use living s-moss to save badly root damaged plant so maybe that would also work for hard to root figs.  I know that one orchid grower uses some redwood fiber to re-establish newly imported orchids because of similar properties.  Not sure if any of my cutting are of the type that will be hard to root but maybe I'll play around with some of my orchid mixes if I run into issues.  What fun. 

I buy #3 locally, but it varies a lot, and some batches are mostly large particles, and some bags have more fines. I screen them all.

Jon, when you have time... :)  please post a photo of your tumbler/drum.

Harvey,

While not Jon I will show you how I screen the perlite.  I have a 1/8 inch screen and the mixer holds easily half a 4cf bag of perlite at a time.  Did two 4 cf bags this spring and took all of 5 minutes.  I have another 1/2 screen I use to screen the pine to get the right particle size for the soil mixes.  It is also my soil mixer, without the screen of course....put in the ingredients, flip the switch and done. It has yet to see any cement:)  I agree with Jon 100%,  the particle size makes a huge difference and those perlite fines and dust are very bad news.  



[URL=http://s562.photobucket.com/user/Bamboorabbit/media/perlite2_zps98160281.jpg.html][IMG]http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss63/Bamboorabbit/perlite2_zps98160281.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[QUOTE=ascpete]Jon,
I wanted to say thanks again for getting my success rate (cupped) back over 90%.
Here are two cuttings that were rooted in sphagnum moss and potted in sifted Perlite, Granite and shredded long fibered sphagnum. These pictures were taken today at 31 days from placing in sphagnum. They have been cupped in 32 oz. deli containers for 10 days. All visible roots are 10 days old! The roots have completely filled the containers and are being air pruned at the soil line. These cuttings are not in a humidity dome.
  [/QUOTE]

Pete, those look fantastic.  When you up potted these to bigger pots, did you bare root to keep so much moss from being next to the cutting? Or up post as-is, with all moss/granite/perlite mix undisturbed?  And how did they do after the up potting?

Thanks, Wills.  I'm tired of hand screening.  I don't know that I want to buy a cement mixer yet. Actually, I have a very heavy duty gas-driven one but couldn't get it started the last time I tried maybe 5-10 years ago.  I am thinking of using a plastic barrel and roll it on caster wheels that sit on top of a frame (in the old days, I did that for sorting chestnuts, not I have a long motor-driven one).

Harvey,

I bought it to make soil mixes...the perlite and pine fines screen was just an afterthought.  For $149 (on sale) it is hard to beat.  

[QUOTE=WillsC]Harvey,

I bought it to make soil mixes...the perlite and pine fines screen was just an afterthought.  For $149 (on sale) it is hard to beat.  [/QUOTE]

You can catch them on sale at Harbor Freight and use the 20% off coupon on top of that.
That is what I did and got what looks like the exact same one for use around the house for a multitude of purposes from pouring concrete to (after cleaning) mixing soil or screening perlite.

I thought about getting one for mixing potting soil before but had previously heard or read that a rotary mixer like this doesn't do a great job because of the different density of various ingredients that can result to heavier material staying around the outside.  I assume that has not been your experience.

Gregg,

Yep it is a Harbor Freight.

Harvey,

If you over fill it perhaps but doing 2 cf (it is listed as a 3.5 cf mixer) at a time it mixes in seconds no issues at all.  You do want to mix first then add water if you are making a wet mix.  I add fullers earth to my 5-1-1-1 mix and it is heavy, it mixes right through.  Normally I put the peat in first and tumble it a bit with a couple of bricks in the mixer if the peat is lumpy.  Once the peat is lump free I take the bricks out and put the rest of the materials in and in under 15 seconds it is all perfectly mixed.  

I get free exercise mixing in my cart with a shove, lol  May give it a try, though :)

I use to mix using a tarp.....that mixer is one of the best things I ever purchased:)  

Jack, get the Aztec perlite at Grangettos. Quality is great and way cheaper than at Home Depot. I think I paid $10 for 6 cu ft.

Hi can_smokva,
If you have so much roots, than put them in a pot. With so much roots, they are no longer cuttings, but trees ...

Jdsfrance,
Although there are lots of roots the cutting has still not formed a hardened callus on the bottom cut end.
It was at least another month before it was fully callused. Treating it as a tree at this stage would only have lead to possible failure. The cuttings were bare rooted (easily) and up potted to 1-1-1 ratio mix of sifted Pine bark fines- Coir(peat) - sifted Perlite. Pictures of their progress are in this topic... http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1278056001&postcount=1

The sifted Pine bark and sifted Perlite made a remarkable difference in the increased volume of healthy roots. The particle sizes were between 1/4" and 1/8". 

At 3 months old...
 

Can_smokva,
The bottom of the cuttings were cut just below the bottom node so that they would not develop a "hollow" when the pith rotted out and the tops were sealed with wax.

Milehighgirl types -I was at a local greenhouse and they are selling #2 and #4 sized perlite. It seemed to me that the #3 would have been the best size. Does anyone have any idea about the sizes of the perlite?

When i used to make my own mix at the time i was buying #4 and took picture of it
with coins to show the particle size.
Hope this helps.

I sifted the "larger" bits from a bag of Home Depot thermo-rock perlite with gutter guard mesh and mixed 50/50 with mg seedling mix, which has a tiny amount of perlite in it. I was amazed at how readily it drained. It seems these high flow rates would require frequent watering, bordering on hydroponic?
I reduced the perlite to slow the flow a bit (it was like the water was running straight through gravel) out of concern that no water was being retained. Trying to wrap my head around this. I guess you balance desired growth rate, watering schedule, and compatibility/shock when transferring to the ground in your area (I have heavy red clay)? I imagine Jon is watering daily, maybe twice daily?

I also noticed the Jiffy seedling mix had no perlite, only vermiculite and peat, but I'm thinking vermiculite is a bad idea all together for seedlings and cuttings, and adding perilte to that mix won't help since it also absorbs water. Thoughts on usefullness of the jiffy mix?

I think I read somewhere on this site that as soon as you get bud break on a cutting in the rooting stage, to transfer to a pot even if there are no roots yet.

Gofigure, seems the high/coarse perlite ratio is best suited for high-humidity greenhouse environment where one hits with a mister or shower-hose somewhat frequently. Otherwise root rot would be devastating. Guessing you'll have to adjust for your own growing environment. I know some of our southern varieties, once they take off, crave much more water than quick draining soil would permit. I think some of the LSU varieties could live in a mud puddle and be happy as clams :)

Thanks. I'll be adding an LSU Purple and probably a Hardy Chicago very soon.

Jon I think you may have just solved my problem.  I have recently been losing a larger than normal percentage of my cuttings to root rot.  My potting mixture recipe had not changed.  I had been working from for a large bag of coarse perlite that I have had for a few years.  In December it finally ran out and I just went a got a few small bags of Miracle Gro perlite from Home Depot.  After reading your post I tried sifting the Miracle Gro perlite and saw how much fine material was in there.  I went out yesterday and bought a 6 cu ft bag of Whittemore super coarse perlite from a local nursery supply.  I sifted some and mixed up a batch of potting soil with coarser sifted material and the improvement in drainage was significant.  Thanks for the info.

Wills, I decided to give it a shot!

I went to Harbor Freight yesterday.  Unfortunately, the cement mixer was not on sale, being sold for $209.99.  I asked a supervisor if he had an idea when it might go on sale and he said he didn't know but that I should receive a 20% coupon within a month.  He then mentioned he had an open box version in the back for $100.  I asked him why it was returned and he said he didn't know but that he had plugged it in and it ran.  I bought it and ran it for a little bit.  Not very well made but more than adequate for this purpose.  I don't plant to drill holes into it to bolt on the screen like you did since I might use it for small concrete jobs.  I will use a make-a-clamp (big hose clamp cut to length, sold in long rolls, already on hand).  Thanks for the idea!

 

Harvey,

Awesome:)  Not sure how long it would last with concrete but potting soil does not even give it a work out.  The clamp should work well.  You got a very good deal on it.

So I purchased a huge bag of #4 commercial perlite and went about sifting. I have a 1/4" x 1/4" hardware cloth sifter that I use for other purposes. I was surprised that eventually all but a hand full of chunks went through the mesh. Am I being too diligent? Just a few shakes and that's good enough?

I think 1/4 inch is to large. My main goal is to remove the powder and the very small pieces.

I use 1/8" mesh.  A lot still goes through, but it's a more reasonable yield per bag.

Mike

I use 1/8 as well and you still lose close to 50%.  

So I screened 2 X 20 gallon tubs of mulch (thanks for the tip Calvin) through a 1/8th inch screen.  

  

The tub on the left (screened twice )and center (screened once) were full when I started.  The bin on the right contains what passed through the screen.  It is just about half full or 25% of the what I started with.  The mulch was still damp from the rain we had last week.  I was able to get about 20% more out of the second pass than the first.  

About 3-4 cups of dirt per cubic feet washes out of the expanded shale I use.  I'll see how much fine particle passes tomorrow.  I went with the Pahrock perlite this year, so I should have less pass through.