Wills and Ampersand are no longer here. What the heck. No one will miss the others. If your banned for the good that you do and trying to keep the foolishness of others to a minimum, why bother?

Wills banned and ampersand

I am sorry to hear Kelby and Wills are effected, hopefully just a probation.

  I am surprised as I never saw them use vulgar statements or profanity here only confront the ignorance and bad manners of the undesirables. It is always the loser of a discussion that turns to vulgarity and profanity on a public forum, those that don’t have the intellect or self control to express themselves.

Maybe if folks express their thoughts here it will be considered members can be re-established if they desire. Maybe some other good folks would consider participating again in the forum as well that have left.  If you find redeeming qualities of a couple others that I hear were removed as well, support them here if you choose. You will find no support from me personally of at least a couple members re-joining here but that's just my insignificant thoughts.

Overwhelmingly the comunity was united and two stood alone in my oppenion. I tried to avoid them at all cost and then the ones that did try to contribute in meaningful ways were banned. It would be great to show your support here if you choose to. Too many have chose to leave because of a few. I know decisions are tough to make on who to remove but it is necessary at times. Who am I to disagree. I guess the other forums don't look so bad after all.

How can you tell who got banned - through personal communication? Or can you search for that?

I too hope Jon treats Kelby and Wills absence as a suspension (a very short one). It is my opinion that the wheat was tossed out with the chaff in this instance.

regards,
billy

Good question, Arne. I would be VERY disappointed to learn that WillsC and Ampersand had actually been banned.

Look at the members names in the search

It doesn't sound right, I'm missing something, I checked both profiles and everything looks normal. Surely this is a mistake to ban them and  Jon let's someone that makes downright vulgar statements that no member should be subject to, especially children and women. to have full reins of the forum. Oh well, I guess stranger things have happened. I think it's just a mistake, I think Jon is above something like this. This is a good forum.

I add my voice to the growing chorus calling for the un-banning of Wills and Ampersand(Kelby).  

Anybody else was banned?

Jon is the moderator of this site and has the right to ban any member who attacks another publicly.  Against forum rules.  The banning may be temporary, but Jon is like Santa.  He knows who's been good and who has not. 

Let's forget about this now and talk figs please?

Suzi

Yes. The two trouble makers apparently were banned.

I have to agree, Hershell.  WillsC is a great guy and has always been extremely helpful and generous to the forum.  It seems the only mistake he made was standing up to a bully he probably should have just ignored.  I don't understand the moderator's decisions on these issues since it seems he let's the problem remain while banning the members who point out the problem.

Just read that kelby and wills are added back.

[QUOTE=figpig_66]Just read that kelby and wills are added back. [/QUOTE]

How do you guys figure this out??

Was posted on another forum i just checked member list. I didnt see wills. But not good i seaching members. I mosly read post for info

Geeeez - what happened?

If my vote counts I throw it into the camp supporting WillsC and Kelby who are both great guys and positive members of this forum.
These guys are not trouble makers.
Please let them come back.
thx,
mgg

Looking forward to the return of Wills and Kelby.

they are not back... they cant log in!!!
that is so sad.

[QUOTE=drivewayfarmer]Looking forward to the return of Wills and Kelby.[/QUOTE]

Exactly.

If the ban on Wills and Kelby hold, it will be a turning point for me on this forum. And others as well.

I acknowledge that Jon V. has the right and responsibility to ban members and delete topics that devolve into vulgarity and name calling, he is the administrator, but continually deleting entire Topics doesn't address the root cause of this argument.

Placing Known cultivar names on unknown or found figs only serves to diminish the Hobby by placing inferior and untried cultivars in circulation as known and true cultivars. Its a good argument with a simple solution, one that Jon V uses in his Varieties Database.

I'm with Frank (FMD)....

BTW, I've read the deleted topic and saved a PDF copy, which is not currently relevant to this discussion.

I never worked with Kelby, but Wills has been great. I would kindly request the ban be removed as well.

ascpete,

Good to see you post. Welcome back. I never have communicated direct with you, but always enjoyed the info you placed out there.  It is obvious that that you put a lot of thought into fig culture. It upset me when it seemed like an undesirable  discouraged you from the forum.

I can not belive that those that stand to confront this AROGANT PUNK Aa... got baned.
This is just not right and I won't be around here for long if this is true. 

Phil (Strudeldog),
Thanks.
I'm not back, as a vacationing forum member I just had to post my support for the banned members. It would be great if we could have constructive discourse without name calling and trolling.

I missed whatever might have been posted last night, but I read a certain contentious thread or two during the day yesterday.  Unless I missed some late posts that totally changed the game, I would say that banning Wills and Kelby (and ONLY Wills and Kelby) was not the move I would have made in this situation.
  An aggressive defense is not the same as an unprovoked attack.  And many of the heated disagreements I've seen over the last few months were based on a sense of protecting/informing folks (noobies or otherwise) from misinformation...i.e. for the good of the forum as a whole.

The thing I always loved about this forum was that it was NOT like other forums.  That has become less and less true as the days go by.


(Pete, good to see you posting again, even if it doesn't last long...)
Jim

For many of the reasons already provided on this thread, I strongly urge Jon to unban, take out of timeout or otherwise reinstate Wills and Kelby to the forum. Conversely, and this comes from a somebody who generally follows a live and let live philosophy, I would not be upset if the other two who were removed are not invited back. One is at the center of, is, in fact, the cause of repeated forum upsets and the other sews discord whenever he sees an opportunity. They, more than any other members, make what was once a warm and inviting environment a much less hospitable place.

As a newbie, I'd like to voice my support for WillsC and Ampersand(Kelby). I have learned not only from their recent posts but their past posts. I have read Kelby's thread on Cold Hardy Figs many times.

I hope it's only a temporary suspension vs a permanent ban.

Kelby and wills are two of the nicest people on here that I've had interactions with. But when pushed I'm sure that they push back. Golden rule folks...

Here's a wakeup call to every member of the forum: if you stand up, even politely, against perceived injustice, your account might be deleted without notice or explanation. So all of us need to be careful how we mix it up here. Kelby was unfailingly polite in his comments, and against severe provocation. Perhaps it was imprudent of him to post a PM, but I for one will miss him. Good to see Pete again.

I have lots of thoughts on this but will just write Jon personally.

I learned to walk away from fights a long time ago because I very well might have killed someone if I didn't because of a bad temper.  Heck, I walked away from a boss 30 years ago and he told me to come back and I told him if I did I was going to take his head off.  I know some folks would have wished I didn't walk away....

NOT  WillsC ,,,,,,,,WILL  is a great guy and has always helped me, he gave my plenty of helpful info .also very  generous  on his cuttings .someone tell me this is a bad dream

Looks like I missed everything. Who else were banned ?
I hope it was a suspension for Wills and Kelby.

Just to clarify as there are multiple Aaron and Rich.   Aaron4USA  RichinNJ   are the accounts as well we believe are effected, and who I reference as undesirables.

HOW BOUT THOSE FIG????????

I don't put up with stupidity and I have always simply ignored people like the Aaron who I believe must have been at fault.  If I didn't understand how forum moderators tend to have other things they need to do, I'd have been surprised at how long Aaron lasted.  A very toxic enthusiasm...

That said, I don't know about Kelby, but WillsC seems to have been a productive commentator.  If the behavior wasn't that bad, I would welcome him back.

That said, there is too much nutbar behavior from people who have dollar signs for eyes.  Or petty pride, which is just as bad, particularly when it's not boasting about the best tree in a neighborhood or technique for some specific need--in a globally connected and hugely complex world.  Figs just aren't very important, and all of us hobbyist and UPick farmers are just here to do something we desire to do.  It should be fun.

I believe Jon waited long enough hoping the clash of egos will end because most members are mature (albeit with  varying sizes of egos).

Many time it started as a reaction to "I, my, me" attitude apparent in some posts then followed by pushback by others who also  ignored the interest of other members that is not to escalate the duels but better dampen it down.

The clashes did not end. So, Jon had to take action. It will be naive to think that it was not expected coming. It could have been expected within +/- an hour or two (literally)!

Jon has life beside the Fig4Fun. Fig4Fun is not for-a-profit organization but in a way a service to the fig hobby community. He can't be expected to monitor minute by minute, and some do appreciate Jon's patient way of dealing with such situation hoping patience will prevail but everything has a limit. Forum has been graciously made available and maintained by Jon for the hobby happiness of all. Jon has avoided rush reactions. He finally felt the limit has been reached and breached and so he acted.

He must have weighed the situation our time and banned the people who in his view acted-or-reacted outside the expected norms and eventually banned them. I believe Jon has earned the privilege to have room when and how to take action. He also has the good of the forum at his heart. Giving him feedback is one thing but putting undue pressure on him can be problematic. What can legally prevent him to switch the F4F off in disgust. We try to login one day and the Forum is not available. Yes, some may not care but many do care and enjoy it and wish to continue in a good atmosphere for all.  Occasional misunderstanding can be cleared in decent ways.

I agree that he ban should not be permanent. A forced first sabbatical for (n to 6 ) months may be expected to serve the purpose. If the undesired  attitude is resumed by the member then longer ban.

It is not the first time that egos clashes happened here. It happened before some years ago. Fortunately, the Forum stayed quiet when some with big egos left but after causing some good members to leave in disgust. Let us hope normalcy returns and stays.

It is just my opinion.

Dang.  Wills is my gardening mentor, he got me started with blueberries and then on figs.  He is not too far from me, so I have been to his place a few times.  That is a shame. 

I don't have a comment either way but wanted to be clear.  Did all four of them get banned?  Kelby, WillC, Aaron4USA, and RichinNJ?

I'd also like to see Kelby and Wills back.  Really good guys.

I respect Jon's right to make his own decisions for what he feels is the good of the forum.   

But I would appreciate some word on what he has decided to do with this mess and with these folks, and I suspect that many of the others posting in this thread would also.

Hmm, I guess I missed it all.  I have bought material from Wills and Kelby always seemed nice.   I thought this was a place where I can learn about figs from people who have ideas and facts and just plain ole in depth knowledge and experience that would make me a better figger rather than a muncher.  As some have said, there is always a second chance.    It is kinda like your puppy: mostly good and loveable with big feet that stumble and make mistakes that can be forgiven.  You don't throw him out the door in the snow.  I would like to see them back if they will come.   Just a newbie weighing in.   Can't we all dig in the dirt together :)

adoresfigs45.  Been her longer than most.  Here is the history.  This was a fig only place until a few newbies with egos wanted to take over.  All hell broke out.  MEN!  They don't do well with that.  Huge cyber fights started.  The real figgers just cringed.  That would be me.  But our leader, Jon, figured out the problem and banned a few for a while.  Don't think it's permanent.  Just meant to teach a lesson.  Sort of like the California 3 strikes rule.  They have been warned.  Still doing it.  Now on suspension.  do it again?  Banned forever!!
Suzi

Thanks Suzi, I was worried for a while, I am glad that you know what Jon is doing and informed us. Thanks again.

Jon, can we have our Wills and Kelby back....please?

They're both very productive and helpful members.

[QUOTE=GregMartin]Jon, can we have our Wills and Kelby back....please?

They're both very productive and helpful members.[/QUOTE]

I agree 100%

Let me ask you a question.  Would you like a private message you sent put public?  I doubt it.  This is what started the drama.  This is why the boys are sitting on stools and on time out.  Can you picture them?  They watch, but they cant say a word.  They are all little bad boys.  Time out.  Jon is dad.  He decides when the time out is over, and they better behave!
Suzi

I am trying to follow this issue and asked this about 3-4 hours ago, so who all is banned?  (Hopefully temporarily like Lisa articulated).  I am hopeful some of these responses are based on fact and not knee-gerk emotions.  Just asking.

You are not helping matters here, Suzi. I can recall more than one time when you've been in the middle of a F4F dust up. Perhaps you should consider this fact before you pontificate further.

I believe they are RichinNJ,  Aaron4USA, WillisC and Ampersand (Kelby)........   hopefully things will cool down and this is only a temporary suspension. If not, I will see them on Facebook and other forums.

Thank you Armando for making this issue clear.  Appreciate you.

Here is my take.  I am so tired of people on this, and other forums, trying to prove how smart they are.  This forum is so full of people willing to help other members and so willing to share their expertise for free.   There are definitely some of the banned people that are a real detriment to this forum and need to get another life.  JMO.

Three cheers for Suzi!

You know it's alway the guys that can't get along. I don't get it! #shakingmyhead. For God sake this is just a room to allow conversation to take place. And about FIGS!

Yea Dennis, This about growing figs!  IT'S A PLANT !!!  The forum is about how to help each other grow figs. 

Well, not to belabor the obvious, but if we want a forum about figs and not about egos and cat fights, that is what we are getting. A thread that was NOT about figs got deleted. And some people were sent to their rooms because they misbehaved. So let's move on and talk about figs. I think we will find it a more harmonious environment, now that the forum has leached some bad blood.

Yep, I am here to learn as I am in a zone (6a) that needs special attention to grow figs.  I want to introduce this wonderful fruit to our climate and want to learn from experienced growers on this forum.  I hope I can ask any questions here without being harassed by the few "Experts".

D-Guy
Questions have always been welcome by all including those that otherwise may cause unhealthy atmosphere. All agree there is no such thing as a bad question when asked with the intent of of learning.
That is the purpose of the Forum. What is needed is not to put down someone who tries to answer a question based on one's knowledge, experience or sometimes intuition only. Polite correction is fine but putting down discourages active participation.

OttawanZ5, that is why I am on this forum and hope learning is what this forum is all about.

Historically, if we had banned those who have had public disputes, some of the most valuable information on the forum would never had been posted. This isn't the first (or second or third or fourth ...) time Dennis has reminded us "HOW BOUT THOSE FIG???????"

[QUOTE=snaglpus]Three cheers for Suzi!

You know it's alway the guys that can't get along. I don't get it! #shakingmyhead. For God sake this is just a room to allow conversation to take place. And about FIGS![/QUOTE]

Why is it women can get away with being blatantly sexist?

Keith (Dirtguy50),

IMO, this forum community has been based on cordial and friendly discourse even when there was disagreement and where questions are asked and answered in a polite manner. Jon V. posted a simple Forum Etiquette, http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/Forum-Decorum-6119026 in the Start Here Topic on Page #1 that should be regularly reviewed by every member.

What has happened on several occasions is that arguments have arisen and instead of cordial discourse the posts devolve into rude and or inappropriate comments. Discussing a point shouldn't result in name calling and obscenity just because you disagree or lack a rebuttal. Also in some of the same topics some members take sides and join in the same bad behavior.

Jon V. as Administrator has the right to Delete or Lock the Topics and ban or suspend members, but as he has always stated he prefers minimal intervention, which leaves it up to individuals and the forum community to conduct themselves in a civil manor.

And for a chance to laugh at ourselves, check out this site and press "Begin"
Flame Warriors Home

Seems to be no consistency about who gets banned and for what.I can think of a couple friends who were canned for seemingly insignificant comments compared to what was permitted after they were gone. And it seems wrong that guys like Willsc get punished for defending the integrity of the forum. Jon what gives?

The way I see it is that it's a privilege to be on this forum, the info you can find is endless and super useful. If this were a workplace and acted a fool I'd expect to be fired. This is your workplace, respect it. These are your co-workers, respect them. You don't like their comments, ignore them.
I don't know the whole story and to be honest, I don't care. Not to sound rude but that's my take on it. I'm here to learn not to take sides. I've learned so much already because of the forum but more from my own trial and error, the ideas are here and you just need to apply them for your own needs.
As far as the ban goes, I don't have an issue with it. I'm sure they are all great people but not all of us are meant to get along. I've personally have met Aaron and I can say he's a stand up guy, and those that have met the others involved will say the same so lets just say they're all good people with strong with their own ideas. And maybe a bit stubborn, HA!
I don't care how much knowledge I have about figs (not much) but I check my ego at the door. Like I said, it's a privilege to be here. And remember, this forum was here before you and will be here after and not skip a beat, ACT COOL...

Has anyone offered Jon assistance with moderating the forum?  He may welcome the offer.

I try REAL hard to get some minds off the center of attention when fights break out.  No...it's not my job but I know what it's like to be picked on or called names or whatever!  So, I offer a few kind words.  

Knowing Jon personally, I know he talked to any member banned before banning that person.  He does not need our help.  Plus, there is so much we don't know!   We have to look at both sides of the fence.  The administrator side and the member side.  All we know is the member side.  I think everyone need to just focus on figs and forget about what happened in the past.  The friendships you've made are still there,  just not here.  You can find just about anyone on Facebook, trust me those folks are there.  Now, I hope everyone has a wonderful overflowing bowl of figs this year!

[QUOTE=snaglpus]I try REAL hard to get some minds off the center of attention when fights break out.  No...it's not my job but I know what it's like to be picked on or called names or whatever!  So, I offer a few kind words.  

Knowing Jon personally, I know he talked to any member banned before banning that person.  He does not need our help.  Plus, there is so much we don't know!   We have to look at both sides of the fence.  The administrator side and the member side.  All we know is the member side.  I think everyone need to just focus on figs and forget about what happened in the past.  The friendships you've made are still there,  just not here.  You can find just about anyone on Facebook, trust me those folks are there.  Now, I hope everyone has a wonderful overflowing bowl of figs this year![/QUOTE]

Amen To That

Speaking of figs Dennis, can you please tell the polar vortex to go away and leave my figs alone?

Unfortunely we have a few days of single digits come up....LOL

+1 Wills & Kelby back soon.  :)

Going,to be 28 in morning. Cold for louisiana not to mention its was 74 degrees

Just started a 5 day spell in the low 70s here.  Sorry, folks! ;)

We have not seen above freezing temperatures since the 3rd week of December but the spring will surely show up by mid-April. Spring here meaning when the plants can be taken outside the storage (& watching for the frost during the greening up of a plant...)

[QUOTE=BLB]Seems to be no consistency about who gets banned and for what.I can think of a couple friends who were canned for seemingly insignificant comments compared to what was permitted after they were gone. And it seems wrong that guys like Willsc get punished for defending the integrity of the forum. Jon what gives?[/QUOTE]

Please name a few more so others can chime in.

I guess that is a way to circumvent the banning decision.

Jon has a big job, and he is torn.  He gets messages from everyone asking him to choose sides.  He thought we were all civilized people, and he knows the drame here.  Instead of cutting the baby in half, and taking sides, he banned all the people involved in the drama.  How do I know this?  He emailed me.  Why did he email?  Because i begged him to come here and explain.  He is a busy man and doesn't do kindergarten.  Basically if you attack someone, or publish a PM, it's not a good thing.  But he did say in his email to me that he doesn't know how long the ban will last.  He is busy.  Don't ask!  I will not make his email public.  I just asked him to communicate, and he did with me.  Frustrated, absolutely!

Yep, accept Jon's decision and leave it alone. 

Does this mean I cannot access all previous topics started by these members?

Sometimes it's better to say nothing at all than to say one word that starts a conflagration. 

A wise person carefully weighs his/her words before they speak.

Life is much simpler when you learn that having an ego is really a detriment to living a peaceful life.

Peace, Love, and Harmony............The "hippies" really were on to something.


It took some thought to come up with any sort of positive contribution here. So thought I'd at least share a few lines of significant importance.

I really don't usually like to add to my 2 cents on topics like the drama referred to here. But really folks (referring to all crowing roosters that were involved), is it really worth the headache and stress just because you want to prove you're right & someone else is wrong? Did you ever consider allowing yourself to be wronged and then just let it go? Come on guys, believe me, life is too short..............

Now. Like Dennis said....How about those figs huh??  And.....read my tag line. 

[QUOTE=SoniSoni]

I hope he's ok

Think its easy to be thin skinned or to get defensive but as my old Mom used to say, be polite to everyone, courtesy does not cost a dime and it adds to your own value when you are gracious to someone who is not. Anybody who has ever moderated a large group knows how hard a job it is with all the different personalities you have to deal with. Jon does not have it easy. Hope we can stick the the purpose of this forum and that is to share expertise or our lack of it for us newer members and that the loss contributors with so much info to share is only temporary.

It may be hard for some not to take sides when they feel strongly for one side or another, but perhaps not contributing one's opinion may be the best way to keep discord small and in the best interest of the forum as a whole. I have dealt with some of the people in this mess and for what it is worth, they all seem to be nice people so I hope they will be back with time and we can be gracious in welcoming them back.

One other thing we should consider as bystanders is that this is an international community and what may be acceptable to say in one culture may be viewed differently by another.  Just because we are all using English to communicate does not mean that the words we use will be interpreted the same way by all of us. This can lead to discord between members when no slight or offense was intended.

 Marianna do you think a "like" button like Facebook would satisfy the need to express an oppinion without letting lose with a tirade?

Nicely said Marianna.

It sure has been quiet with Aaron gone lol.

That's ridiculous

What's ridiculous jc_figs?

I never seen Willis do anything bad or ampersand/kelby

You have been here for 90 days and now stating something "That is ridiculous"?  You are a troll and need to go away!!!!  The lying, totally inappropriate PM's to members, using multiple names are far worse than what this tread is talking about and you should be the one banned.  I am shocked YOU have not been banned!

Ok look I actually have been looking on here and checking things out but I and am I the only one who realizes that u always say something to me sounds like ur a troll to me and since I actually started replying I haven't said anything bad so u need to chill smh ✌✌✌✌✌✌

I cannot stand anyone who lies, sends inappropriate PM's to members, and tries to deceive other members.  Very simple.  This forum is not a playground for anyone's enjoyment.  It is about sharing and learning with people you trust.  There are people here that offer unselfish recommendations based on experience from past success and failures.  It is people helping people.  Not people playing the games you seem to enjoy and build post with totally worthless information.  I will not respond any further but I am sure you will.  That's what immature people do.  Bye.

Hmmm but yet ur acting immature by saying bad stuff to me in the first place and actually I do try to help people but if that's how ya feel ok peace ✌✌✌✌✌✌✌✌✌

Dirtguy you make a pretty good point, even though the kid is not really harming anybody. He may not even be growing figs, nevertheless the forum is never going to be a perfect place. Is he required to make substantive contributions in order to participate in the forum? A group discussing fruit cultivation is probably not the best refuge for troubled youth, but we cannot censor everybody. Who knows if this person is really a kid, or what gender he/she is? How about those figs?

Well u can.n see I'm a young man by my profile pic

rafaelissimmo, I think you have a good point.  It may just be talk, I don't know.  I do think this forum could be a great refuge for a troubled youth if they will realize to be open, honest, listen, and never ever send inappropriate messages to anyone.  I am very very active in our local Boys and Girls Clubs and fully understand what you might be referring to.  It all starts from being honest with everyone and confessing if you haven't been.  Then this can become a wonderful refuge for anyone. 
I got some Unk Yellow Greek cutting from Aaron Delmanto (ADelmanto) that are growing like crazy.  I am trying to figure how to keep them inside until time to go out because they are growing so fast.  It is so enjoyable to see the progress of the cuttings during the cold winter.  Spring is still a ways away but getting closer every day.  Yea!

jc_figs, you still don't get it.  You have posted more that one profile, got busted, admitted to it, and still try to play some game instead of fessing up to the whole thing you have been doing.  "Come on Man".  There is not reason to believe your profile is true.  It is now after midnight where you are so why are you up posting on a forum if you are only 13 years old?