I am going to experiment this year with my mix to try to accomplish these goals:

Reduce compaction

Increase aeration

Keep the weight low

Keep costs low too

Lower water retention of mix vs. Pro-mix only

The ingredients I found semi-local to me:

Co-op Growers-

Pro-mix BX 3.8 cu ft $27.99

Pro-mix BRK 2.8 cu ft $14.99

Coarse Perlite 20lbs $20ish

Coarse Vermiculite 20lbs $20ish

John Deere-

Turface All Sport 50lbs $16.80(think I can do better)

Pine Bark Fines????? I can't find them fine enough so I might use Pro-mix BRK

I am going to mix it up so actual peat will be about 1/4-1/2 of total mix. I mads some tonight and it looks promising. I will take pictures of the mix and raw materials tomorrow. The compaction and weight is already better than fully saturated Pro-mix.

Does anybody want to share some mix recipes that meet my criteria?

This is good composted pine I find here, the company is in Quarryville, PA.

That's just what I need! I was looking at their website and I want to try the cocoa shell mulch as a top dressing too.

Jason ,
I am very interested in what your results are with this experiment.
 Please keep us updated on your findings for the various mixes you try.
The goals you list are the same I'm hoping to acheive as I continually try to improve my basic mix.
Looking forward to your pics and results.

Kerry,
I gave been reading lots of the posts lately and I am going to try a mix that has more pine bark fines in addition to the other ingredients. Also mentioned Pbfs are very cost effective. The turface does mix well into pro mix I was concerned that some ingredients might settle. I have a couple pots done and one of these formulas will be a winner. Will keep you posted.

Hi Jason,

If you have the time, you may want to check out this thread. I know this post was from the GW citrus forum, but it still gives some interesting info on some soil mixes. The main goal of citrus mixes is for it to have good drainage, which is also a same goal for figs too.

Although it did start out as question I had about pine bark, it did end up with some other good info about some mixes too. Who knows, but thought maybe something could be of interest to you in this post. 

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/citrus/msg0614173514132.html

The cocoa shell mulch is a problem if you have dogs.  They're attracted to it, eat it and it can kill them.  They can't metabolize methylxanthines the way we can so caffeine and theobromine are toxic to them.

Eliminate the Vermiculite.

I stopped top dressing (mulching) my containers after the first year.  The roots would grow into it much easier than the rest of the container. Since it dries out faster than the rest of the container (water moves down and it retains less water to begin with) you end up watering more.  Also the bottom stays wetter which prevents roots from wanting to penetrate the area.  

My new current recipe on trial is:

Licorice Mulch(Couldn't find Pine bark fines and I like what I read)

Pro-mix BX

Chunky perlite

Turface

Chunky Vermiculite(I saw your post James but I have a massive bag in the garage)

Pine bark nuggets at the bottom of the pot to keep the mix from running out since it is so loose.

 Jason ,
How many parts of each ?

What about turface on the bottom and verm up top? That is how they built the Colosseum, with lighter concrete mix aggregates higher up.

@Kerry- I am not sure yet.I did 10 20gallon pots with varied amounts. One thing for sure is I like using mulch or fines and turface in the mix. I think it really helps with compaction and aeration. I am leaning towards 2 parts pro mix, 3 parts fines or mulch, 2 parts turface, 2 parts chunky perlite, and 1 part chunky vermiculite.

@ Brent- The problem was the mix coming out of the big drain holes. I just put a 2 inch layer of Pine bark nuggets on the bottom and that fixed the issue.

As far as turface on the bottom and vermiculite on top, I believe it's too moisture retentive.  The only reason I use turface with perlite is because the turface is a little finer and holds a little more moisture than straight perlite.

I meant mixed in with the other ingredients Jason. Using the vermiculite in the top half only would reduce the amount of compaction that happens as the verm breaks down.

@Brent- I never thought of using two mixes in the same pot.

Me neither! I would try and make them as equivilant as possible, just one with turface, and one with verm. Sine you want to use the vermiculite, and pots dry from the top down usually. Holding more moisture up top would be better than at the bottom at least. 

This is a picture of one of my current formulas. It is 2/3 turface, perlite, and vermiculite. the other 1/3 is pro-mix and licorice bark.

I am still searching for Pine Bark fines in South Jersey.

Still no pine bark fines so I am using cocoa bean hulls instead. My current mix is 1/3 cocoa bean hulls, 1/2 Pro-mix brk, and 1/6 chunky perlite. My other formula dries out too fast and it isn't even summer yet. Plus turface is too expensive and heavy for 100 trees.

Last year I tried using 40% coarse coco coir and 60 percent sheep manure (composted of course) it works well imo but it will dry out quickly.  When it dries out or ordinary watering seems like it would just drain out and it seem to be fine, it re wets quickly and the plants that would wilt when I first started using it after a water in 15 mins you could tell they had water in  them and were no longer wilting, the problem I am finding other than the need for more frequent watering is they are very heavy with all the manure. 

I am going to set up a drip this year but I am thinking of 25-30% coco, 40-50% manure and 25-30% pro mix and I will add dolomite lime this time.

The really good thing about this mix I currently have is that you have to really try to over water it, when the plants are new the bottom can stay soggy but if it is able to drain you could leave a hose on it for hours every day and the roots would still be fine.

@ chivas- I think we are using 2 different things. I am using cocoa bean hulls which are comparable to pine bark fines and you are using coco coir which is the furry stuff on coconuts. Anyways, I think coir is a peat moss replacement. Good luck with your drip this season.

Jason,
I used to be a fan of vermiculite, but not anymore.  It starts off nice and fluffy but compresses so easily that after a couple months you end up with just these slivers of rock that no longer provide aeration or moisture retention.  I have a decent amount sitting in my garage as well.  I will probably use it for starting cuttings, but not for a large pot anymore. 

You say you can find 20 lbs of coarse perlite for $20.  I'm wondering how that converts to cubic feet, and where you get it.  The best source I have found around me (just north of NYC), is Home Depot, where you can get a 2 cubic foot bag of coarse perlite for $17.  I think that 2 cubic feet probably doesn't weigh quite 20 lbs though, so maybe what you're getting is a better deal. 

There is a source in Maryland (I go down there a couple times a year) for the pine bark fines for $5 for a 2 c.f. bag, so that's fairly cheap.  I don't use any peat.  Figure that if I just don't sift the pine bark fines, there will be a lot of fine particles that will have similar properties.  So for me it's the pine bark, perlite, some fertilizer, and some garden lime.  If I find that I need more moisture retention, I will add some peat to my mix, but I don't anticipate that.

So the Perlite is the biggest expense for me.  I would like to find a way to get it more cheaply.

Rob

Ron, what is the name of the place in Maryland? I have been searching my area for fines like Jason with no luck. 

Pine bark mulch at Behnke's.  I went to the one in Beltsville:
http://behnkes.com/website/about-us/hours-a-directions.html

Call Mr. Mulch, he? they? sell bagged fines for $6.89 and mulch for $5. I was paying more locally but am going to make a trip over to Avondale and save a dollar a bag, they might have it at their West Chester site as well. I found pine mulch at Christmas tree shops, near Concord Mall for $2.50, but it has strandy pieces over an inch and plenty of wood so I think I will sift it and compost the large particles for a year.

Mr. Mulch bagged products

Thanks, that place does not seem that bad to get to from me. I'm still hoping to find a closer source... I am shocked at how hard it is to find this stuff.

Cocoa bean hulls are no good. They retain too much water at the bottom of the pot. Good thing I finally found pine bark fines.

i've been using some pine bark mix with compost, perlite and peat moss at 5:1:1 ratio since i started growing fig. it works nice, but the roots grow too quick. i might go to potting mix (off the shelf stuff like miracle grow) and perlite 1:1.

pete

I'm not sure how well the coco bean hulls will do as a soil additive.  I use it as a mulch and it great because after watering it in a couple of times, it completely mats down and keeps weeds from coming up through it.  It also breaks down almost entirely in one growing season.  Sure smells good every time it rains though.  Keep us updated on the progress, great topic.  

Hello Dr. V,

So, how is this potting mix coming. I'm thinking the pine bark fines will also hold a lot of water, no? Or is this experiment mostly to cut down on cost for the material but still come out with a good growing conditions? This is a concern for me. There is a place near Lancaster, Pa that sells peanut shells whole or ground for bedding for animals and wondering if this could be added to the mix. It would be light when dry but thinking it to would hold a lot of water. Keep working at it, unless you start growing a third eye.

luke

The goal is reduced cost, less water retention than peat only, better aeration, and less compaction. 

If you could find some Akadama, which is Japanese volcanic clay granules, that would also make a good addition because it's more like real dirt. The problem with Akadama is that it is expensive, costly to ship, and would add weight to the soil. Sea Chem used to make some stuff for aquariums that was soil-like for planted aquariums, but I forgot what it was called. None of this would lighten the weight,though. I used to use composted rice hulls as an addition and it worked great, but I can't find them anymore. Coconut fiber is a great addition to your substrate matrix and it's cheap, but does not supply a lot of nutrients. It might be a good bulk filler, though. You can find that at a pet supply store.

I bought a bag of these coconut husk chips they are suppose to have double the life expectancy than bark chips,? 

Keep us posted. Always looking for something better. 

almost forgot I picked up a block of coconut fiber medium just add water and it expands like those sponges like you used to get years ago, one block is suppose to fill a wheel barrow, this has allot lower ph than peat moss and just like the chips it is suppose to last allot longer 

Dave, coconut husk chips (CHC) & coconut fiber actually have a much higher pH than moss peat (as it is usually referred to in the scientific literature). When coir is referred to, it generally means coir dust (AKA cocopeat). Your product above looks to me like a mixture of CHC and coir fibers with little dust. At the suggestion of someone on the citrus growers forum, I get the CHC and coir dust for my container media from the Crystal Company in St. Louis, MO: http://crystal-company.com/

Interesting article, thanks.

Hi, guys. Over the years, I've done a LOT of experimenting with soils, including side by side tests of soils made with CHCs and coir in the stead of pine bark and peat respectively. In all cases, the plants grown in the CHCs and coir did NOT fare well in comparison, so I wouldn't be too quick to conclude that coir and CHCs are suitable substitutes for peat and pine bark, respectively, on a volume:volume basis.

Coir and peat are approximately equal in their structural stability and their water release/retention curves, but there is little comparison between the longevity of CHCs vs pine bark, with pine bark getting the nod by a considerable margin when it comes to structural stability.

Commercial growers generally limit their inclusion of both CHCs and coir to 10% or less of the medium. The reasons are, both are often processed in salt water and can have high levels of soluble salts, as well as being extremely high in K (potassium).

While it's true that pine bark that has been composted under anaerobic (airless) conditions can be quite low in pH, it's probably not any cause for concern. I've been using pine bark in my soils for at least 25 years, and I can say I've never had a bad batch. I wouldn't even guess at the number of different packagers of the product there might have been, but it's a considerable number ..... probably at least 50, and no problems.

In the end (or the beginning), ;-) your soil is the foundation your plantings are built on, and the most significant factor that determines how strong that foundation is is aeration/drainage. Inextricably included in that consideration is how much perched water soils hold; and what determines the amount of perched water held by a soil is particle size. The finer the particles, the more perched water the soil holds ..... and perched water kills.

The fine roots that do all the work die very quickly when subjected to anaerobic conditions. As the dead root tissue decays, it also generates sulfurous gas compounds, methane, and CO2, none of which are desirable in the rhizosphere (root zone). The more you can reduce the amount of perched water a soil holds, the greater will be the opportunity for a healthy and efficiently functioning root system. Even if the soggy conditions are alleviated before serious root rot sets in, root function is impaired as long as they lack sufficient oxygen in the rhizosphere.

Even if there is no visible indications that plants grown in soils that support significant amounts of perched water, there is lost potential. When the fine roots that are the plant's work horses are killed by airless conditions, or their function is impaired, the plant has to not only expend the extra energy it might have put into growth/fruit/other energy sinks to regrow the lost roots, it also is deprived of the current energy/growth/production it might have been able to realize if root function wasn't impaired.

Building aeration and drainage into soils, and reducing the ht of the PWT, hinges on particle size, and you aren't going to be able to achieve the goal when your soil has significant fractions of small particulates, like peat, coir, compost, topsoil, .....

Consider a jar filled with fine sand as representative of a soil based on fine particulates, then ask yourself what volume of BBs would be needed to turn that sand into something you would consider to be well aerated?? In your mind's eye, you can 'see' that 30-40-50-60% BBs will still leave you with a soil whose interparticulate (potential) air space is clogged with sand. Until the BBs are about 80% of the BB/sand mix, you don't see any increase in aeration/drainage (flow-thru rate) or the ht of the PWT. This example clearly illustrates why you can't start with a large fraction of fine particulates, like most commercially prepared soils, and amend them with 10-20% pine bark or perlite and hope to get much benefit. All the perlite does, until it's a very large fraction of the soil, is take up space that might otherwise be occupied by water. It doesn't increase aeration, drainage, or reduce the ht of the PWT UNLESS, in combination with other larger particles, it makes up a very large fraction of the soil.

In the end, you can almost say that as long as you don't go too far and you use a little reason in interpreting what I'm saying now, the more aeration you can build into your soils, the greater the likelihood your plants will be able to grow to their genetic potential. From the plant's perspective, the more aeration the better. The grower might view from the perspective of convenience though, rather than plant health. The grower may say, "I don't want to be saddled with watering every second or third day - even every day if it comes down to that." That's fine, we all order our priorities, but using soils that extend watering intervals comes with a price; that, in lost potential.

I often have people say, "I can only water weekly but I want to use the gritty mix. How can I adapt it to work for me. The answer is, "You can't." The gritty mix, and to some degree, the 5:1:1 mix are made with plant health in mind - not grower convenience. You would apply the concept behind each of those soils in the same way. Do I want to maximize plant vitality/growth, or do I want to minimize the effort I expend maintaining my plants. What's important isn't what compromise you end up making; rather, it's knowing there is a compromise in play. I never care what choices people make, only that they get the information to make informed choices.

I hope everyone has had a good weekend. It's been in the 20s at night here, so I've been running carts of trees in and out from under cover as temps allow.

Al        

DWD2 That isn't the actual brand that I bought I guess that depending on what brand you do buy they process it in different ways which gives it the lower PH and you have to be aware on how they wash it, some is washed in salt water which is no good for what we are doing and others are washed in fresh water which is obviously perfect for what we are doing, but here is some very good information on this product

Thanks Al. That post was informative.  I am looking for a compromise. I tried the gritty mix and the roots grew like crazy but I needed to water too much in the summer. I have been toying with different ratios of perlite, promix, and pbf. Do you think 40%pbf, 40% perlite, and 20% promix would help drainage. I just don't have the time to water 100 trees daily. 

Dave, the products sold by Crystal Company in my experience have been rinsed in fresh water to remove excess salt. I always check my media preps before using for pH, EC, TP, AS, AW & BD. I occasionally send a mix off to get the nutrients quantitated along with the CEC and C:N ratio. I have been very pleased with the product I get from Crystal Company. I suspect that they are a repackager, but do not know for sure. I have seen coir dust blocks sold by Down to Earth on shelves and the packaging of the blocks looks identical to what I get from Crystal Company. That does not mean what is inside is the same. All the batches that I have used had a pH between 6.0 and 6.4 which is fine for fig trees. I have no experience with the products you show. High residual salt in CHC or coir dust is easily detected with an EC meter, just hydrate it and do the pour through procedure. If you get a high reading, soak it with distilled or deionized water water a couple of times and peat an EC check. If the EC reading drops significantly, that product was not washed with fresh water. Of course you can do fresh water washes yourself, but it is kind of a pain.

I'm fine with having my credibility judged based on my own explanations and the grower's ability to reason. I've been studying soils and explaining to others how they work for more than 25 years, and have helped thousands become better growers in both public and forum settings for at least 10 years. I was recently (August) invited to address a group of specialty growers at a U of M's Matthaei Botanic Gardens, and that went rather well. I lecture widely on soils and various forms of container culture to various clubs & groups. The only person I really seem to have any problem with is a guy named Dan, who rears his head from time to time because he can't resist. Hopefully, that's all water under the bridge, though.

I wonder how many are willing to 'just soak their coir in distilled water a couple of times after they've checked its electrical conductivity' when peat is far less expensive out of the chute, doesn't require the extra time and expense, and doesn't have the inherent problems coir has? Also, coir usually has a near neutral pH, which makes getting Ca & Mg to the plant a common problem because liming coir based soils moves pH out of the 'sweet spot' you noted for MINERAL soils; most soluble fertilizers lack Ca & Mg. The 'sweet spot' for container media is about a full number lower on the logarithmic pH scale (closer to 5.2 than 6.2 - charts for comparison furnished on request), which means that not only would there be no room for the use of lime in coir based soils (except for plants that prefer high pH levels), but there would also be no room for the normal upward creep in pH that accompanies aging soils watered from municipal water supplies. This is all common knowledge for those with a basic understanding of soil science.

Al

Penultimate paragraph in post # 37 says it all.

Frank

Quit being so sesquipedalian! ;-)

Al

I will acquiesce to your request, and refrain from "p-ing" too much, also.

F

thanks AL good post lots of good information you learn something new ever day..................:-)

I grow a lot of cacti and succulents and the soil required must be very porous, yet if it can retain a reasonable amount of water along with the air the plants do very well. Our secret ingredient is fresh water diatomite which works wonders at doing both. I like to add a portion to my fig trees when I pot up. Diatomite is very expensive, but is the best thing I know of for the intended purpose. The mix is:    

4 parts Metromix 366 Coir
2 parts Diatomite
1 Part Turface
1 part Granite Grit 

You will note that 50% of the mix consists of large particles each of the 3 ingrdients consisting of large particles vary in size, up to nearly half an inch or so and 50% is finer soil with coir included. Not a great soil necessarily for figs, but you get the idea of larger particle percentage and the different sizes of each which does work for figs nicely. 

The calcined DE (diatomite) shouldn't be too expensive. It can be had as NAPA Floor Dry from any NAPA Auto Parts Store for about $6 for 24 qts. Actually, as I look at your mix, I see where you could simplify & improve it a little by doing away with the DE entirely. Either the DE or the Turface are redundant in that particular formulation. They both offer water retention as their primary function, so you only need one or the other. The only significant difference would be particle size & pH. The DE is neutral and Turface is about 6.2. Not enough difference to get excited about. If you used pine bark instead of the Metromix, you'd be growing in the gritty mix.

One thing that you're doing, is going to considerable length to build a gritty soil, but then you actually undo your good intentions by using small particulates in the Metromix. These small particles filter into macro-pores, turning them into pores small enough that they are holding interparticulate water, ie, perched water. If you ran a bunch of tests, you'll find that what you're growing in is hardly any different than if you were growing only in Metromix with a little perlite added. The reason I say that is, everything in your soil is very water-retentive except the granite. If you substituted perlite for the granite fraction, you'd have essentially the same amount of aeration, same flow-thru rate, and the same PWT height.

In order to truly take advantage of the gritty fraction of your soil, you need to eliminate the fine particles so there is only air, no water, between the large particles; otherwise, you're leaving 2/3 of the benefits offered by a gritty soil lying on the table. It's the PWT that kills roots and inhibits root function, and it's the fine particles in the Metromix that ensure your soil is holding a considerable amount of perched water.

[IMG]http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c149/afassezke/5yearsold106.jpg[/IMG]

Note how there are no fine particles in the gritty mix to clog macro-pores. The soil remains well-aerated from top to bottom, even at container capacity (when the soil is holding as much water as it possibly can).

Al

I use coir because I get it for free, I get the washed version and I also wash it myself several times until the e.c. is under 1, usually .7-.8 which I find is satisfactory, then mix it with composted sheep manure, Maybe other things work better but it's working for me for now.

We all have priorities and standards that vary. What's important is that your soil satisfies the standards you've set for yourself & your plants, and it allows you to prioritize your life (talking about time constraints) in the way you deem fitting. That's looking at things from the grower's point of view, and no one should take it upon himself to order someone else's priorities ..... and from the grower's POV, 'free' is usually good. All that said, there is also a plant's POV, which is almost always the perspective from which I approach a discussion. I can say that from the plant's POV, the soil you're using will be water-retentive to the point it's assured the plants in it are growing under some limitations that are more than just minor. If all you're using is composted manure & coir as a medium, in any combination, it's a certainty the soil holds significant amounts of perched water. if you're growing conventionally, that can't help but be limiting to root health/function. It would be very helpful if you were set up to take advantage of wicks to help drain excess water from the medium, or if you employed other techniques like pot-in-pot or pot-in-trench (partially burying your containers) to take advantage of the wicking action of the earth to help drain the extra water.

Have fun - best luck.

Al 

I appreciate your comments Al, but I can assure you that this mix works better for cacti and succulents than any I have seen to date in 30 years of growing. I can see where some of the fine particles would potentially clog some of the larger particles, but it seems the overall mix is more than sufficient for aeration. This mix dries fast, ensures good drainage allowing lots of air to reach the soil and holds nutrients. If there were no fines in the mix, I fear the mix would dry too fast. The inclusion of diatomite improved the mix measurably with very notable improvement in growth. Previously we were using pumice which also works well, but not nearly as effective as the diatomite. I am not a soil scientist, however, I believe there must be some other benefit to the diatomite than just aeration. Thanks for the tip of the Napa product, I will look into that. I thought those products were largely high fired clay similar to turface.