In another thread, Jon posted an invitation for someone to write a page about Forum Etiquette.  Since that thread was about something else (related, but more narrowly focused), it seemed right to branch it off to a new thread.  If you want to see the discussion that happened so far on this, it's under a thread that has "Bogus" in the title.  Anyway, in case it's helpful to Jon, a few of us took a crack at drafting an "etiquette" page in response to Jon's invitation.  Here's what we had so far... it's nothing more than a starting point and all up to Jon how he wants to handle.  But here's a thread for others to voice their thoughts.  It started with a "keep it simple" principle, and I think Jon's interested to have a small page to link somewhere. 

Suggestions on basic forum etiquette

A.  Treat people nicely.  Be polite, not rude.  Don't pick on others.  Treat them the way you'd like to be treated.  Remember, in most cases, the people with whom you are interacting here are people who share an interest in figs.  They're people.  So if you're in doubt about what is "polite", consider how you'd interact if you were face to face with a group of people.  Yes, it's "the internet" rather than a room full of people, but the internet is a medium for communicating, and this forum is effectively a community.  How would you like to be treated in your community?  If you're in doubt about whether something you're about to post is "polite" or not, let your own answer to that question guide you.

B.  Be safe too.  As stated in #1, it's the internet.  Unfortunately, not everyone is who they say they are.  We strive to keep this forum a friendly place where people who share an interest in figs can interact and share their knowledge, photos, and experiences, and it is for fun.  But remember, it is possible for someone to abuse that.  So use common sense... don't expect that everybody here is trustworthy just because they're here.  Most are, and we want to keep it that way, but please use common sense.  Be careful about posting personal details in postings and private messages.


Examples / questions / suggestions about forum etiquette

OK folks, this forum is pretty open.  But a few topics about etiquette arise from time to time, so if you're looking for suggestions, here are a few more:

1.  Asking for freebies.  It's generally bad form to get on the forum and ask for free things right away.  Remember, if you're new here ("a newbie"), some of the people who regularly contribute to the forum might like to get to know you before they share their cuttings with you.  If you were introducing yourself to a room full of people who shared a common interest, would the first thing you say be something like "Please give me free cuttings!" ?  Nobody's going to stop you if that's how you want to introduce yourself, but don't be surprised if some of the others don't respond the way you want them to.

2. Search the other posts to see if your topic is already covered.  Many times others have had the same thought, problems, or solutions, and it annoys folks when the same topic is brought up each year for the 7th time.  So read a little bit here before you ask a new question.  This site is full of information.  Now, having said that, if you've put in a little bit of effort and haven't found what you're looking for, then don't be shy!  Go ahead and post your question.  This is obviously a bit of a balancing act... just be reasonable and it'll be OK.

3. Don't make stuff up.  The whole community is harmed when someone posts misinformation.  Do speak of your own experience or things you've researched or know.  But please don't post misleading stuff.  We don't need tomfoolery in this community.  Opinions are OK, and so are hypotheses.  But it's helpful to be clear about whether something is opinion, or fact, or conjecture, or a question, or otherwise.  We don't want to hinder open discussion about things that people disagree about either... open discussion, even if it gets argumentative, is fine.  Just please don't post things that you know are false with some intention of stirring up controversy... it's bad form.

4. Do participate.  You never know what part of your experiences will be helpful to others who read them.  Be guided by these bits of advice about etiquette, but remember that participation does help the community also.  It's OK to just be a reader (or "lurk" as it's often called), but without participation the community withers.  So if you've got something to share, please share it!

5. Remember to respect differences of ability and situation.  This might seem like part of treating people nicely, but it's worth a separate mention.  People here may not all have the same background.  Some are savvy with technical things and use of the internet, some are not.  Some have English as a first language, and some do not.  There are differences among us.  So be gentle with each other when you point out small failings.  And if you think someone else would benefit from seeing this etiquette page, feel free to point them to it.  (And if you're considering pointing someone to this page, it might be worth reading through it again yourself... is whatever transgression you perceive in another really so important that you need to point it out to them?  Be kind).

6.  Use a meaningful title for your thread.  Explain your topic / issue.  You will likely get more thorough answers and fewer questions that use up blog space. Also, for technical reasons relating to links, it's helpful to avoid parentheses, exclamation points, and many other special characters in thread titles (subjects).  When someone wants to provide a link to that thread, the special characters wreak havoc (with the way the current technology works for links).

7.  Be civil.  Personal differences should be handled through email or PM and not through posts displayed to everyone. It harms more people than you think.  Please consider this every time you're tempted to complain about someone else personally, or to inquire about their trustworthiness.  Would you want your forum name referred to in the way you're about to mention someone?  Especially consider this if you're inquiring about a newbie.  Remember that everyone is new at some point.

8.  Stay on topic.  If a new path or thread develops within an existing thread, start a new thread.  It's fun!

9.  Similarly, don't create duplicate threads if you can help it.  If there's already a thread around about a particular topic, post to that one rather than starting a new one.  The site becomes "fragmented" if there are 87 threads about the same topic.  See example #2 about using Search to find what threads are already there.

10. Ignore spammers.  If you must respond, respond to them personally (email or private message) and not through the board.  Responses to spam are spam too.

Well said!

Suzi

Good efforts.
Referring to the last item "Ignore spammers.  Respond to them personally and not through the board, or report them."

The last part "or report them" needs clarification. I understand  that spammers should be responded to personally (i.e. privately) and not through the forum board. But report to whom.
Do you mean spammer should not be responded to reported on the forum Board but done privately.
 

Suzi:  thanks.
Akram:  I agree that one could use some clarification.  I'm just not sure how to clarify it  (it originally came from another member who moderates a tractor forum and is now a member here.  I'll edit the posting to point out it needs clarification, but I'm not sure how to clarify.  In the case of really abusive spamming, I guess the only action to consider would be pointing it out to Jon.  Not sure if Jon wants that... I'll try editing to see what else it could say.

All:  On the question I had listed about selling, Jon has spoken.  So I've removed the old #8 and renumbered the existing ones.  Also edited #6 to remove the reference to selling.  
Jon: fwiw, I agree with you that the forum has done quite nicely without having a rule about that.  And obviously your call in any case.  I removed the rule.

Just for the record, the thing I removed was:
8.  << Jon:  not sure if you want to say anything like  Don't use a forum to promote your product, service, or business.  This is about sharing ideas about our hobby, not eBay or Craig's list.  I read in some posting somewhere or other about this... your call entirely.  Personally I kinda like the way that it's pretty "unregulated" here... the community seems to regulate itself on that aspect... but someone suggested this one, and someone else objected, so your call. >>

And again to all:  maybe I should add a rule about not calling people out publicly.  I'll see if there's a good spot to edit that in... maybe in #8 (about being civil).

Mike

In your rule about not making things up you might want a statement about being clear if something is an opinion or fact or conjecture.

Great list!

Thanks, Mike, you're making a great contribution.

I really like the idea about useful thread titles.  Sometimes it seems fun to create a teaser title to get folks to check your thread but we all have differing amount of free time and I appreciate having some idea what the thread is about before I take the time to click and read it.

Bob:  good idea.  I'm changing item number 3 to include words that I'll put here in blue... i.e. 



3. Don't make stuff up.  Ever.  The whole community is harmed when someone posts misinformation.  Do speak of your own experience or things you've researched or know.  But please don't post misleading stuff.  We don't need tomfoolery in this community.  Opinions are OK, and so are hypotheses.  But it's helpful to be clear about whether something is opinion, or fact, or conjecture, a question, or otherwise.  Just please don't post things that are false with some intention of stirring up controversy... it's bad form.

Hey Jon:  the more I do on this thread, the more I'm aware how wordy I tend to be when I write.  If this list of stuff doesn't fit your style for how you'd like an etiquette page to read, just say so.  I start to feel like I'm an interloper trying to set a tone, when all I really want to do is reflect the tone that I've found here.  I like the way this forum works already... it's a pretty nice place.  So if this thread isn't helpful or not what you'd want, it won't offend me at all if you chop it.  Was just responding to your invitation on the other thread, but man it's your site and I don't really want to change anything about the way you run it.

And Bob:  maybe I should be posting something here that says this whole thread is opinion so far.  :-)

Mike
  

Harvey:  regarding the bit about meaningful subject titles:  that came from JackHNVA (over in the other thread where this started).  Credit where credit is due... he moderates a tractor forum and offered a bunch of suggestions.

Doug:  regarding "do we really need rules" (paraphrasing)... yeah, I don't know if this exercise is a good idea or not.  A few of us were responding to another thread where Jon (the moderator / owner / chief executive dude for this whole site) invited people to try drafting something.  Maybe it's too wordy or too big a list... I don't know.  My initial idea was to keep it simple... just the two things in bold as

Etiquette Suggestions:
    A. remember to treat people nicely, and
    B. Be safe too.

It kinda grew from there.  I just want it to be fun too... maybe the whole etiquette page idea isn't needed?  I dunno... I'll leave that up to Jon, and meanwhile I'll go sleep on it.  G'night!

Mike

<edit> p.s.  Maybe removing suggestion number 6 ("read the rules") would be an improvement?  

Nice rules, but alas trying to shape public forum behavior is like herding cats - it's next to impossible. Having been on several forums, the people who read rules tend not to be the ones who 'need' them. Rules help a little, but in the end, sorry to say, they don't change much.

Less is more. :)

I hear you Gina.  Especially about who reads them.  But I'm not really trying to shape any behavior here or change much of anything.  I like this forum the way it works... it's a nice place.  It's very "wide open".  I'm just offering something to Jon that he asked for, and trying to do it in a way that reflects the tone I've perceived here.  Maybe one thing it might do (key word:  might) is if there's a page for this forum etiquette stuff, then it might deflect some small amount of that sort of stuff from creeping into quite as many of the other threads.  Maybe.

Mike  

I'd like to see this forum etiquette as guidelines rather than rules.  No forum police.

Very good first draft BTW. Lets keep the forum fun.

Peter, I agree.  If you noticed, I removed the word "rule" from any of it, about an hour ago.  (Well, except for suggestion number 6, which I'm thinking should be scrapped entirely).

BTW - I've got no official standing to write rules... just trying to help reflect the great place this forum already is.

Mike

Mike, I'm sure all of us appreciate your time, effort and dedication writing this guidelines. If it was me writing this, it would take me a whole week just to come up with 2 paragraphs.. :)

a very good idea!

I did not read the whole thread yet, but wanted to follow-up on Doug's comment. YES, the Forum community is for fun. In the end, this will be distilled down (probably a lot) and offered as advice or suggestions. Definitely not interested in a long list of draconian rules designed to try and heard wet cats. Giving newer members a heads-up - helping them get up to speed, however, is not a bad thing, either. We are all in this together, and sometimes we change and add things, as we go along to assist newer and older members alike. Even the Constitution has had a few updates over the years.

Forum Etiquette - Common Sense when one forgets it read below.

Jon - moderator has the power to delete posts, lock posts , and set things straight since day one and its worked since and although a few bumps came along through out the years those bumps have been taken care of by Jon.
Dont need a bunch of draconian rules as was stated in my humble opinion.

Much of this forum etiquette talk stems from newer members asking for cuttings in their first few postings .
If you want to help fine then respond or if asked via pm or email simply say yes or no .
There is also the option to keep your pm and email closed if you simply dont want the messages 1 way or the another.

GREAT THREAD!!!
I do not want to see a lot of rules for rules sake but I think the selling should be someplace other than the open forum.  I do sell on Ebay and I hate Ebay but I do not think selling on this forum is a good idea.  Too much potential for bad.  I would like to see a good classified section with reasonable priced paid ads by members only.  Proceeds from the sale of ads could go to the foundation or directly to the owner.

Hi again everyone.  These etiquette suggestions are just that:  suggestions.  They're not rules.  (it uses the word "rule" in one place, and that's about to be deleted... the old number 6, which said something like "read the rules", and was inherited from another member's suggestions about what to include here (he moderates another forum site on a different topic).  But I have a question, because the word "draconian" has come up a number of times now... I reread what I've edited from among the many suggestions about forum etiquette, and from what's up there I just can't see how any of it can be construed as draconian.  And I'm happy to stop wasting time on this if the whole thing is not needed.  (I didn't write all this stuff... I just agreed to edit it... over in another thread which has since apparently been deleted).

Mike

p.s.  One thing that was in that other thread which seems to have been deleted by the guy who initiated it:   I consider myself a newbie.  I've only been here about 8 months, so in my book I'll be a newbie for at least another 6 months or so.  Maybe longer.  In that thread there was a discussion about this topic, and Jon invited someone to write some guidelines to guide newbies on etiquette.  I hadn't posted there until Jon made that invitation, but it seemed like a worthwhile endeavor, and since I've run a few websites before I decided to give it a shot.  I have no interest at all in changing this place... I love the way Jon runs this forum!  I love the way it's a great self-regulating community!  So, though there was some interesting discussion happening over there, it got deleted for other reasons.  (I will add my opinion that in my view the guy who initiated that thread did nothing wrong... if there was any abuse there it came from others, and I'd feel badly if the initiator feels persecuted or something).  This whole p.s. is just to give a little context for why I stepped up to trying to draft guidelines/suggestions... I was responding to an invitation from Jon, and unfortunately the initial bit of discussion on this topic of "etiquette guidelines" was lost when that other thread was deleted.  I've got no interest at all in changing the way this site is run!  It's a nice place here.  If Jon feels this isn't needed, I'm happy to drop it.    - M

<edit> p.p.s.  I'm sure nobody need worry that this will change anything about how the site runs... this will eventually either disappear or else get shunted off to some page that's rarely looked at.  No danger it'll change the nice touch that Jon uses in moderating the site.  :-)

Mike,

I believe that this is an appropriate Topic for discussion. There should be a "Basic Forum Etiquette" post at the "Start" post. As a newbie myself, I spent many hours reading old topics and many months before posting on the forum.  I did find many older topics explaining "Proper Etiquette" in regards to cuttings, and comments (some I thought were rather discouraging) to many newbies about asking for cuttings.

Due to the diversity of the members of this forum, many may not be able to do extensive searches of the forum archives. The "Start Here" post provides a wealth of information for new and old members alike. As an example, "Rooting Cuttings" has been discussed extensively in older posts, but new topics are started weekly by newbies asking the same questions, me included. I personally wasted two (2) months experimenting with different rooting methods, only to conclude that the one Jon V. has on the website, produced the best results, the only factor which I missed, but was posted, was the optimum temperature, this is not to say improvements cannot be made.

I am not advocating strict "Rules", what I am advocating is a few basic explanations and instructions for Forum Members as a "Standard Operating Procedure". My one (1) instruction to new members would be to read the "Start Here" post, Which would include a post of the basic guidelines. This forum has been a wealth of information and sharing, which I believe should be one of its main Goal.

Should be required reading, just like Emily Post was for the ingenue of fifty years ago.

I never read Emily Post.  Dammn!!  Ooops..... &(^#^&**&^%$@!!  Better? 

All I know is I see red flags when a newbie comes in without an introduction and demands FREE cuttings.  But really, many of our members are "men of few words," but they still love to grow figs.

Rules?  Hate em!

I'm here because until now, this has been a very friendly and kind forum.  It's going down slowly.  Too much drama for me!  I may only lurk for valuable information, and conversations on PM with the friends I know and love.  Please don't ruin this forum....  I left Garden Web due to this kind of stuff.

FIGS 4 FUN!  FUN!  Get it?

Suzi

Martin +1

Hi Suzi,

I also hate rules, so I understand your reluctance to see formalized behavior guidelines.  I believe, though, that guidelines could help alleviate some of the drama that causes you and other long-time members so much irritation.  New members can choose to read the etiquette section (or not) and to adopt (or not) the standards of acceptable behavior.  It’s just a way for responsible members to learn quickly what is expected, not rigid rules that would change the free-flow of the site.  The upside of this is that you won’t feel obligated to respond (or bite your tongue) when someone steps out of line--you’ll already know that the newbie isn’t interested in behaving responsibly. 

I hope you’ll reconsider going into lurking mode—I know I’d miss your posts. :’(

Mimi

I agree with Jon completely.
The bottom line is people that want to educate themselves about the way this forum works before posting might appreciate having some basic advise on becoming a member of this community.

Those that are only out to get cuttings and move on won't read any of the starter info and will be short lived as they always have been.

Suzi, I think we are on the same page. I think in the end, I will add some comments,  suggestions or guidelines to the Start Thread, and then point it out in the welcome e-mail.

I have NO love of drama, but it is also good to let everyone speak their piece, once in a while. That can go south, but it can also lead to ways to make things better for everyone. I could be heavy handed, and edit a lot more things, but I still want it to be more free and simple. Sometimes that means allowing some latitude. I think, in this case, after the dust settles, we can make some simple changes (not rules or laws) that will benefit everyone.

Mike - I very much applaud and appreciate your efforts. 

We also have to realize we all have bad days - kids are sick, loss of job, relationship problems, loved ones ill, teenagers, dog ate my homework, money problems, car accident on the way home from work, intolerable boss, etc, etc, etc.  The list is endless.  We need to be able to forgive, but when it gets to be the rule rather than the exception, well then that's something else entirely.  Rules will not make the "not nice" people "nice" nor will it get them to read the rules as Gina pointed out.

Mike - Let me ask a hypothetical question.  Will there be disciplinary actions taken if the rules are violated?

Suzi - Please don't leave.  You are a valuable member and your contributions are appreciated.  Don't let one or two bad apples spoil it for you (or me).  I was considering leaving the site too until I saw Cody's response today and it made me feel better about being here.  I'm not saying Cody is a bad apple, on the contrary, I'm saying his response made me appreciate the "nice" people on this site and he is one of the "nice" people.

Steve:  What rules?

Mike

Mike,

Again, I appreciate your efforts, but as others have done I have taken your suggestions as rules.  Apologies.

Steve, no apology necessary!   One thing I'd remind everyone... they're not really "my" suggestions either.  I just agreed to edit.  Some of them started from me, but most of them came from others.  :-)

Mike

I find this topic very amusing.  I  joined on the first of the year - about 3 minutes after I found the site.  I have to say I am not the lurking type - I jump in and join the crowd - also while lurking without being a member I couldn't see any of the pictures.  Besides, I had questions and a mission  -  I needed help!!

I would not expect anyone to respond to a request for free cuttings if I had made one - it is rude behavior to ask strangers for anything for free!!

Would anyone go to a strangers house and ask for free cuttings?  No they wouldn't, they would wait till the people were gone, trespass and take them - along with some fruit and flowers they like lol (as mentioned in a previous post!!)

There are several ways to handle someone who you feel is being rude.   Ignore them!!  If it is a public post on the forum you can choose to not reply to it. If you feel a burning desire to set this person strait, a pm would also be appropriate in a tactful way.  You can make a public post for their person to check their pm to insure they see it.  If it is a direct email or pm, and you are not comfortable with the request, you can say something like "I am sorry, but all of the cuttings I may have are spoken for." 

I have missed a lot of the drama over the last couple of months due to the hours I work - afternoon till evening when most of this happens.  Sometimes I miss a couple of days - Man!!  A lot can happen here over a couple of days!!  This board is busy!

When I read the drama (after it happened) I noticed a bandwagon type of reaction.  This happened on a forum I used to frequent several years ago.  It turned out that it was started by a troll.  This person posted a frantic need help situation!  Right away people started posting about the situation and the troll kept baiting and the members kept swallowing  hook, line and sinker!!  about 3 pages worth over several hours!!  A member with somewhat of a level head realized this must be troll and outed the person, the tone of it changed.

I am NOT saying anything here was started by a troll.  What I am saying is don't be so quick to respond to something.  I see it all the time with people and texting on their phones!  They may be in a bad mood or read the text in a way that was not intended - the emotions go up and  the intelligence goes down. 

Words are powerful - whether written or spoken.  I am sure everyone at one point or another has wished they didn't just say that!!  We can't take back our spoken words - they are done.  What we can do is take a moment to read what we wrote and say to ourselves - should I take this back?  Does it convey what I want it to?

I have had times here when I didn't feel very comfortable, heck I feel that with family, friends and coworkers at times too!  For me, being a member, the pros far outweigh the cons.  Be nice, be polite and try not to be to harsh with others.

If you need to read a page on forum etiquette then you probably don't have any anyway. Do we really need this thread?

BOOM! LMAO

A while back, I had asked about the "Terms Of Service" (TOS) for this forum:
http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/F4F-Terms-of-Service-5113518
Since then, the membership has more than doubled, increasing the chances for mishaps.

The GardenWeb does have such an official TOS document.
It can be accessed from the very bottom of their forums home pages:
http://www.gardenweb.com/legal/tos.cgi
Most of it is legal mambo jumbo.
Article 6. Guidelines deals mainly with [common-sense and] etiquette.

Can F4F have something similar (but simpler) that all members
(new and old) MUST read at least once?

I hope Suzi don't go!  We need more women in this forum!  I hope Maggie comes back.  Don't worry Suzi, Jon will get rid of the drama!

How bout those figs!!!!!!!

[QUOTE=DesertDance]I never read Emily Post.  Dammn!!  Ooops..... &(^#^&**&^%$@!!  Better? 

All I know is I see red flags when a newbie comes in without an introduction and demands FREE cuttings.  But really, many of our members are "men of few words," but they still love to grow figs.

Rules?  Hate em!

I'm here because until now, this has been a very friendly and kind forum.  It's going down slowly.  Too much drama for me!  I may only lurk for valuable information, and conversations on PM with the friends I know and love.  Please don't ruin this forum....  I left Garden Web due to this kind of stuff.

FIGS 4 FUN!  FUN!  Get it?

Suzi

[/QUOTE]



You are going overboard. Nobody is DEMANDING free cuttings. Your perception is not the reality.  People are grateful for free cuttings (like i'm sure you are).  People come on, are intrigued and are looking to get into the hobby for a low cost(as i'm sure you did).  
I have heard that you have been pretty blunt with new members about not wanting to share your plants and cuttings with them and that's your right. But it may not be how other people on the forum want to operate.  Did you ever receive free cuttings when you first joined? Did you ever consider that maybe the lack of compassion shown towards new members is detrimental to the site? Does it really kill anyone to send 2 or three pieces of scion wood to a new person? What are you going to do when that noob you shunned finds a FMV free Black Ischia in his backyard? Will you be upset when when he/she won't send you any?
I myself was fortunate that a member of this board was more than kind to get me started. I am eternally grateful.  I have made it a point to pay it forward as best as I can; to follow his example. There are a lot of members here who i've given plants and cuttings to for free because of the kindness I received(and I still owe some people cuttings). Have I had a bad experience or 2...sure. But the good more than outweighs the bad. And i've made some friends along the way.
I'm still a "noob". I welcome other "noobs" to the board. I welcome everyone's input. It's a chat board. Along with the good comes the not so good. 

OK, I think we have had ample time to hash out this subject, and hopefully it has been of benefit, even if it has been a little awkward at times. This is a community, not a commercial site, so sometimes "family" dynamics are less than perfect. Who hasn't experienced that?

I have added a pinned thread regarding this subject. I have included it in the "START" page. In a week or so, I will un-pin it, and probably send this thread to the dustbin, as well.

My thanks to Mike for stepping up to help develop some guidelines to help the Forum prosper. I may have chosen other language but he was able to distil the pertinent issues which made my life easier.