Hello everyone, This last Sat. I received a call from USDA, he ask me if I bought some Fig cutting on Ebay from Portugal and I said yes. This June I ordered 4 fig cuttings from a gentleman in Portugal.The man said what I done was against the Law and he told me to put them in the freezer until he comes to get them (he said maybe a month)...I said, so I am going to be out $35.00 and he said yes. I was wondering if anyone else has had this problem The fig cutting were Black Madeira Big Flat Figs... Frank

Golly, what a shame the seller didn't have the papers or offer your money back. Now you will have to wrap those cuttings up and preserve them for him and keep them separate from your other cuttings, so they don't get mixed in and confused.

Does the USDA know how long the cuttings are?  Just thinking...  But really its horrible because the seller probably knew that there would be a problem and sells here anyways.

Give him some Brown Turkeys.
"gene'

Looks like you need to trim your least favorite tree. Cut them now and let them dry a bit then freeze them. It might be a good idea to let someone plant sit your best trees for awhile.

My first thought would be the same as some of the above but if you got caught, that could be really bad.  I agree with Meghan, the seller probably knows what he's doing is illegal and does it anyway.  Sorry for your loss.  =(

people make mistakes sending mislabeled varieties on occasion I don't see how you could get in trouble if you swapped them out.

The seller is no more in the wrong than the buyer in such cases. This has been discussed many times. A buyer is required to have an import permit. The permit would tell you that the cuttings need to be accompanied with a copy of this permit plus a phytosanitary certificate and your new plants would need to be quarantined at an approved location.

I received a notice from the USDA also regarding the same seller from Portugal. I am handing over my plants on Tuesday. They tracked through EBAY and when I spoke to officer, she mentioned that the cuttings could harbor Asian Long Horn Beetle. I lost about half of cuttings in the rooting process. I am handing over the rest with no questions and no games played. Learned a bit late through this forum but don't want to endanger our trees. My loss.

As I recall, there's an ebay seller doing time right now in a federal prison for this type of thing.   He got 3 to 5 years if I remember correctly.  If I remember (or can find)  his ebay name I'll post it here.

Don't mess with the feds.

All cuttings from Portugal, Turkey and China ( to name a few) are restricted according to the USDA agent. Just mentioning these three countries because alomst half of the cuttings presently listed on EBAY are from these three countries.

oh? like beetles don't cross country frontiers. same as bed bugs and cockroaches, excuse my ignorance, but how would an agent know if a stick is a BT or a BM??

I like many others have been tempted to buy from other countries. A lot of people believ the fig is sweeter on the other side of the ocean. This may be true but then it may not.

It has been shown by many members on tbe forum the same tree (through cuttings) will grow and develop differently in different parts of our own USA.

If someone overseas has a fig tree and wants to sell cuttings do you really know what it is?? I doubt it very much unless you have been there wnd have eaten the fruit yourself. There are probably thousands of varieties of figs right here without a "name " attached to it. Whwn someone gets a cutting from a tree like this they may name it from the family they got it from, the street it grows on or the town it grows in. The sellers overseas may be doing the same thing!!

Some people only want "named " varieties in their collection, how would you know from overseas????

I will stickwith getting my sticks from the members here who live in the State and will only trade with those members too.

The powers at be are trying to protect this country. Could you imagine the problems we could potentially have if every type of hobbyist felt that it was "OK just this once " to import something illegally?? Everyone who has a hobby thinks theirs is special and different from everyone elses - they aren't, we aren't. We are a bunch of fignatics who are looking for the perfect fig wherever it may grow.

Besides, keeping the sales here is good for the economyy!!!!

[QUOTE=HarveyC]The seller is no more in the wrong than the buyer in such cases. This has been discussed many times. A buyer is required to have an import permit. The permit would tell you that the cuttings need to be accompanied with a copy of this permit plus a phytosanitary certificate and your new plants would need to be quarantined at an approved location. [/QUOTE]

I did not know I was doing anything wrong! I did not know the protocol to importing plants in the US, I am not a NURSERY!! I am a new member so I never seen it discussed! A Nursery should know the rules but a regular Member who has only a few plants....Should he know all USDA RULES??


Frank

Better to play it safe and give him the cuttings and any information regarding the seller you have. I'd also be concerned with any other fig cuttings/pots/trees you have that are in plain site. 

This subject has been mentioned manny manny times. Even this seller has been mentioned several times. Ignorance is not an excuse. Coincided yourself lucky they are only going to take some cuttings and possibly a few plants.

I was looking on ebay and there are ALOT of these postings for cuttings from China & Turkey.  But I also found this listing for plants from England.  Does anyone know about buying something like this? 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ice-Crystal-Fig-Tree-/221270808694?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3384c49876

And I agree with several of the posts.  Ignorance of the law doesn't make us exempt from it.  And even if at times it doesn't seem that way the USDA is really trying to do a greater good and keep our existing tree's safe. 

Is there anything we can do as a group?  Contact Ebay for example? 

wow.. g-man working on sat. x)

[QUOTE=Frankallen][QUOTE=HarveyC]The seller is no more in the wrong than the buyer in such cases. This has been discussed many times. A buyer is required to have an import permit. The permit would tell you that the cuttings need to be accompanied with a copy of this permit plus a phytosanitary certificate and your new plants would need to be quarantined at an approved location. [/QUOTE] I did not know I was doing anything wrong! I did not know the protocol to importing plants in the US, I am not a NURSERY!! I am a new member so I never seen it discussed! A Nursery should know the rules but a regular Member who has only a few plants....Should he know all USDA RULES?? Frank[/QUOTE]

Frank, my comments were not specifically directed towards you but someone else posted that the seller was breaking the law and should send the required papers.  The seller can only do it correctly if the seller sends their import permit to show what requirements the USDA/APHIS issued with the permit.

eBay does cover the requirements somewhere in some of the online policy but does not police it and certainly doesn't go out of its way to make sure everyone is aware of it.  That would be next to impossible to do anyways.  There isn't enough social pressure for them to do much about it.

Harvey, That's my bad.  I knew the seller was required to have and send paperwork but I didn't realize the BUYER was required to have a permit also.  I will have to read the USDA requirements more closely.  Thank you for the clarification on all of this.  

Meghan,

    We could either find an importer and pay a service fee, or create an importer and pay a service fee. Anyonw who imports would ensure that the paperwork is in order any any quarantine or inspection is complete.

Everyone in this position should contact ebay and complain.  When the feds talk to you you should ask them to make ebay stop alowing people in foreign countries to sell here.  It would be simple for ebay to do and as a conduit for smuggling they could be subject to large fines.  I can't understand why the USDA goes after 1 person at a time rather than shutting off the spigot.

You don't have to like it, but here are the rules:  USDA

Has anyone ever been fined for such a transaction?  Or do they just loose their cuttings?

Alan,

Bob has a very valid point. F4F, as a group and non-profit organization can write to eBay to end the illegal sale of plant material and cite the USDA regulations.

Until eBay is notified that the sales of these products are not meeting federal requirements the sales will continue. Members in the USA who purchase on the eBay site are afforded their Protection Plan to ensure there is no liability of lose if a sale fails to be correct or legal. 

***Finally, as a student prepping for law school, I must say... the above noted material is not meant to be or thought to be legal advise.***

 

I don't think ebay would put a stop to any illegal auctions if the sale doesn't affect them. They get their money and they are happy whether anyone gets in trouble or not. Even the knock off designers.....there is a warning and then you can go ahead and post the knock off.
I have reported items that were obvious knock offs several times and they are never taken down, I watched and waited. Some sold for good money. It's not good but I don't believe there is anything anyone can do about it. Buyer beware was never so true.

The rules are the rules.
We have an importer, his name is Jon, he has a nursery named Encanto Farms Nursery.  He has been through this.  It is not the certificates, it is not the licenses, it is all that, PLUS the quarantine.  How much space do you have to set up a quarantine? does anyone here other than Jon know how to properly quarantine plants or plant materials?  And last but not least, why bother? there plenty of great figs already on this side of Customs/USDA.  Oh BTW, you probably already have many of these figs that are named "Aunt Maria's Mission Brown Black Madeira Unknown" brought over by Uncle Giuseppe in 1856 or some one like him at a later date.

When you see the Everglades taken over by Malelucca or Brazilian Pepper which has been proven to be almost impossible to eradicate you might think twice about breaking these rules.

I know this may be cause for some differing opinions but I am not trying to start anything and will not respond to those differing opinions,

Just saying!!

Danny,

Your points are valid in the way you have presented the information. The only area I can see where we as a group would benefit is the establishment of a East Coast operation.

This is not something that is as easy as establishing a new orchard in someones back yard. To do something like this is going to take planning and site surveillance to ensure there is plenty of time available in case of ecological changes. I know of one orchard that is in the family through marriage will be gone in roughly 150 years from sea water rise combined with erosion. 


Jon,

This is where I would start asking you questions on the information concerning the requirements of quarantining. What equipment and space is needed to meet USDA standards. For when starting at the empty land this is something that can be planned for and used in variety establishment and development. 

Danny, it is not difficult to meet the quarantine requirements.  I have an approved quarantine location, I think it's required to be 3 meters away from other plants of the same species (I have it further away than that).  The hardest part is getting a seller willing to get the phyto and then having the patience to wait out the quarantine period.

I agree, Danny.  It is far better to follow the rules than to risk bringing something into this country that will harm our ecosystem.  Just look at the pythons in FL or the nutria rats in LA or the Kudzu choking out all other plant forms in GA and many other southern states.  It's just not worth it.  Sometimes when buying on ebay, we just don't stop to think about where these plants are coming from and whether or not they are certified.  We all, me included, should be a little more careful before bidding on such things.  =)  

[QUOTE=alanmercieca]rcantor - If I understand correctly only if the country the plant material is being sent from has serious laws against what the seller is doing the USDA can not do much against the seller.even if selling tons of plants to Americans. Only ebay can take any real action against the seller. These laws of the USDA are laws created to prevent actual problems, some countries may not take kindly to severe punishment over what ifs that their citizens may of helped to cause if certain situations happened but most likely will not happen.[/QUOTE]

That's not the point.  The USDA could fine ebay for being the conduit and ebay could easily disalow plant sales from non-US addresses to US addresses.  It seems a better use of resources for the USDA to send 1 lawyer to ebay and shut the whole thing down rather than send agents to everyone who bought something from overseas.

Ebay just sent me a coupon for $37.00 the price of the cuttings I got from Portugal. I called and talked to  a Lady at Ebay and told her the situation  and she kindly said "let me talk to my Boss" and came back to the phone in about 3 minutes and said " Would a $37.00 coupon on Ebay satisfy you" and I said yes.....Regardless, of Ebay letting me buy Unlawful Items,  I think that was pretty cool of them to reimburse me, without any Paperwork, just my word..

Frank

Ebay and their 'good-pal' paypal; together, they charge a hefty ~15% in fees off any sale.
That is good business....

Frank, great news.  Really glad they took care of you.  Anything less that that would make them a very poor business.

I suspect eBay has a lot of powerful lobbyists in DC that will make sure the sales go on unregulated.

We have the same regulations in Canada, for the same beetle, they destroyed several trees I ordered from baud because they were 1-3 mm above the allowed 10 mm diametre, the reason for the 10 mm diametre restriction is because the eggs of the beetle are not found in 10 mm diametre or less branches.  I got all the proper paper work from the Candian gov't and from baud, we don't require qaurentine for this but it isn't cheap either, he wont ship without the proper paperwork though.  I was angry first then I read up on the beetle and we already have the ash borer and birch borer so I calmed down and realized it was for the best, these trees all pretty much have a trunk now 1 inch in diametre so they grew very well this year and should produce a healthy crop next year so I am happy.  Finding similar nurseries in europe is proving difficult and Baud is very open, up front and professional, so anyone thinking to go through all the trouble of paper work and if needed quarentine, you won't be disappointed with his trees.

This is slightly off topic, but I think many of the destructive invasive species mentioned in this thread were actually imported legally. The US government paid farmers to plant Kudzu. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers planted Medaleuca in Florida for erosion control.

The only thing that I think eBay should do differently is to make buyers of regulated items more aware of the laws.  I don't think eBay should be held responsible for the transactions any more than Jon should be for folks that make deals here through PMs, etc.  Even when we are given disclosures we rarely read them (I know I haven't read a software license agreement for over 20 years).  I think USDA/APHIS is being pretty reasonable about this and not threatening criminal charges or fines, but I question how effective it is when they wait months after the transaction was made.

Chris,

I do not know the current quarantine requirements. They have to be, I think, 100 feet (might be50') from other fig trees, which is not doable on small city lots if you or your neighbor has a fig tree. When I had my space inspected and approved several years ago it was sufficient distance, but don't remember the exact requirement. The State Ag person or the County Ag person will come out and inspect you quarantine area prior to the approval and issuance of the permit. They had to come and re-verify everything when I renewed a couple years ago. There was no requirement for any kind of structure, but you will probably need some sort of greenhouse to root the cuttings in.

They were quarantined for a minimum of 2 years, were inspected annually, and, in my case, it too about 2-1/2 years because they arrived in February, so two years latere they were in a dormant mode. The final inspection has to be done when they are leafed out, so it was May before they could do the final inspection. If I remember correctly, a CDFA (CA Dept Food and Agriculture) person did the final inspection, filed the results with the County Ah Dept, which forwards it to the State Dept, which forwards it to the USDA for final disposition.

Until you receive a final release, they are NOT you cuttings or plants. They are the property of the USDA, which "subcontracts" out their care to you. After final release, then they are your property. As long as they are the property of the USDA, you cannot take the plants or cuttings out of the quarantine area, and you must keep any plant material which dies, for the inspector. The fact that all plant material that is imported is technically the property of the USDA is, I suspect, the reason that they can come and take possession of it from your property. Your are essentially in illegal possession of their property.

Originally, I just had to list the countries that I expected to get cuttings from, and put a overall quantity that was sufficient to cover what I might, but not you have to list a quantity for each country and if you actually end up importing more, then you have to have the permit modified prior to shipment.

Information on the beetles is here: Federal Order  There is a more recent update, in 2011, but couldn't find the location., and if you check the link below, there is a 2013 update, as well.

Here is the USDA Guidelines for importing plant material. See Table 2-7, 2-10, 2-11 If I am reading Table 2-10 correctly, the new rules are no ficus from Europe. Following this document will give you a headache.

When I set up my quarantine area for pomegranates it was only something like 3 meters.  I haven't imported figs but don't know why it would be different.  Yes, it could be rented land.  They would want the plants in pots and they cannot be propagated until released.

I've mentioned before that I was involved (instigator) of a chestnut import project.  In that case, the state required a 5 year quarantine (due to oak wilt disease) while the Feds only required 3 years (chestnut blight concern).  Due to the serious thread of these diseases, the trees were required to be grown in greenhouses for those 5 years.  This project was handled by Plant Material Services which has it's offices right across the street from the USDA NCGR on UC Davis property.  They charged $1,000 per accession but it would probably be more today.  They would probably be willing to do figs for a similar arrangement but there is no need for that really.  In the cases of chestnuts, they are a prohibited item and can only be imported by such an agency or quasi-government entity which is not the case for figs.

[QUOTE=pitangadiego] Following this document will give you a headache.[/QUOTE]

and dealing with the entire process will give you a migraine :-)

I have quarantine inspections for two facilities,
tomorrow morning.
Not looking forward to it,
they send multiple inspectors for each visit,
most was 4 inspectors at one time.


They find something wrong or a problem,
its possible to lose everything in quarantine
and the surrounding area as well.

[QUOTE=alanmercieca]If only we could somehow get a huge piece of land to quarantine a massive amount of fig trees in 5 to 10 years time. The land would technically only need to be borrowed?[/QUOTE]

The massive amount of money needed
would be your largest problem.

Cuttings/plants from overseas nurseries
are not free.
Neither is the international shipping,
domestic handling from the fed facility,
containers, soil, nutrients, water, stakes,
maintenance, weed control, pruning..........
:-)

[QUOTE=alanmercieca]I was thinking a lot of people joining together for such a project,
no way I'd take on such a nasty project all on my own.

Also people sending them during vacations. or from the countries that they live in.

In some cases from nurseries, yet fig tree cuttings can be picked for free in a lot of European countries as well.[/QUOTE]

I believe that project is already in existence with the F4F Foundation.

Individuals collecting fig twigs on vacation could not send cuttings back,
as there is no way to secure proper documentation and certificates for export
from that country, or to import into the US.

Nurseries charge for cuttings/plants,
and they're at much higher price points
than most Americans are used to,
thanks to cheap prices at Home Depot and Lowes.
Also considerable costs to generate the
paperwork and inspections needed for export.

An individual can pick all the free cuttings from a tree
in Europe or anywhere else in this world.
As an individual, there is no legal way for them to export
that cutting to the US.

Sort of like the old days,
in some countries,
trading/selling fig cuttings for export
was punishable by DEATH
:-)


I would just wait a bit,
might see an interesting surprise next year.

Alan,

The idea of using a group effort is one means to reduce the individual cost, but someone is still responsible of housing and care. 

Feds are looking for these two pests:

A. Chinenis
A. Glabripennis

Countries with these bugs:

Afghanistan
China
Croatia
European Union
Indonesia
Japan
Korea
Madagascar
Myanmar
Philippines
Taiwan
Vietnam

European Union

•  Austria
•  Belgium
•  Bulgaria
•  Croatia
•  Cyprus
•  Czech Republic
•  Denmark
•  Estonia
•  Finland
•  France
•  Germany
•  Greece
•  Hungary
•  Ireland
•  Italy
•  Latvia
•  Lithuania
•  Luxembourg
•  Malta
•  Netherlands
•  Poland
•  Portugal
•  Romania
•  Slovakia
•  Slovenia
•  Spain
•  Sweden
•  United Kingdom

 
Basically, all your favorite fig countries  :-)

The pests are not on the surface,
but in the wood.
Treatment with bleach or other methods does not kill them.
Only a trained individual can spot these pests.

Casual inspection by a hobbyist  is ineffective and useless.

Violating the Plant Protection Act/Permits,
you are liable for civil penalties of  $250,000 per violation
and up to double the gross monetary loss caused by those actions.

All spelled out nicely in the permits :-)

The agents came to my house this morning for the Madeira cuttings. They were extremely polite. I pulled my plants out of the pots and into the black garbage bag they went. They briefly explained the rules and understood it was a mistake on my side. I had purchased cuttings from China and Turkey which the agents were not asking for but I gave them up when I knew I had broken the rules. They asked for the names of the sellers, which I provided. I signed a document and they were off. I will be sticking to good ole USA cuttings from now on.

In all, I gave 11 Madeira cuttings, 1 China cutting and 1 Turkey cutting. These were the ones that survived the rooting process. There were two or three that i thought were struggling, that were actually dead when I pulled them from the pots. They took the dead cuttings also. The rest were thriving and it broke my heart to pull them but lesson learned. They let me keep the pots and soil but were willing to take them also if I did not want them.

[QUOTE=Sburdo]In all, I gave 11 Madeira cuttings, 1 China cutting and 1 Turkey cutting. These were the ones that survived the rooting process. There were two or three that i thought were struggling, that were actually dead when I pulled them from the pots. They took the dead cuttings also. The rest were thriving and it broke my heart to pull them but lesson learned. They let me keep the pots and soil but were willing to take them also if I did not want them.[/QUOTE] Steve.....I had 4 Madeira cuttings , 3 of the cuttings were rooting and one died! I was told to wrap them up and put them in the freezer! This is making me sick, all the pampering I've done to these cuttings. Oh we'll, maybe I should have known better. At least, eBay gave me my money back. Like you, I will stick with the good ole USA. The USDA Agents should be coming to my house within a month...Lesson learned. : ( Frank

I did not understand the permit rules correctly. That and having fig fever and trying to amass a superior fig quickly. My enthusiasm has been tempered and I am better for it. I have seen pictures of great old oaks and elms being grinded to sawdust and that being incinerated. Forfeiting my plants seems to pale in comparison to the potential destruction caused. I completely accept my fate. I might add a suggestion. Newbies (like me) tend to have a lot of enthusiasm and try to get as many figs as quickly as possible. Possibly adding a "highlighted or easily recognizable" quick blurb or link about the downside to importing figs on the "Start Here: The Basics, FAQ, Recommendations ...." tab in the forum could potentially help. This subject seems to get discussed repeatedly but new members seem to catch this too late. Just a suggestion and not an excuse for me not doing my due diligence.

"I had 4 Madeira cuttings"

These have been in the US for some time now. There are several sources including the UCD where one can get the cuttings for free or one can find a private grower and obtain cuttings at a small fee. 

TO date the only real problem I have had in locating a fig is the Rouge de Bordeaux out of France. I am sure they are already here in the states for it is just a matter of time before I run across them. Most of the other French figs from the region are here already and many known sources can be found on the forum. 

I agree we all need to be aware of the short comings that are found within the eBay system and research more before clicking on that buy it now button. Jon is a wealth of information as her has done the required work to import and go through the quarantine process. This is not something one is going to do for a common fig that is just hard to come by in the US. One will be doing this for new varieties that have been domestically bred and selected through a breeding program or a research team from a university collecting genetic samples.