Hello everyone.  My Black Madeira was doing fine until 5 days ago.  After it broke bud, it was one of my strongest growers, putting out lots of roots and leaves.  Up-potted from cup (50/50 UPM and Perlite) to 1 gal (1/1/1; UPM, Perlite, Peat Moss) on 04/01/2014.  Had nice big leaves that felt tough and looked very healthy.  A little sign of FMV, but not bad.  Keep the tree by NE facing window with lots of sun early in morning to partial sun by 10 am.  Temperature in room fluctuates from 69 to 72 degrees with 53 to 55% humidity.  It has been drinking the water that I've been giving it, about 10 sprays a day.  It has steadily been dropping its healthy leaves one by one since 04/03/14.  As of today there is one healthy leaf left.  There is a green bud on top.  Anyone have any ideas of what is going on? 

 

Sorry the picture is sideways.  Can't figure out how to make it right side up.

Years back i had some do that under grow light similar to yours drop leaves , then eventually a new bud opened and plant took off and never looked back.
I would make sure also there is no draft at that window.

don't water it any more. let is drain out and let it dry up a little. stop misting. if it was fine 5 day ago, it should bounce back. as soon as night temp is above 50, set it outside and only water when the whole set up is paper light. 

Alan, I wish that I had taken photos when I up-potted.  But yes, the leaves that drop off are healthy, strong leaves.  That's what worries me the most.

Martin, I don't feel a draft by the window, but I'll move it back anyway.  Thanks.

I've had similar experiences indoors.  Once the outdoor weather was warm enough, they bounced back nicely.

could be anything.. a bit too much moist upon transplant or lighting hitting on one side only, or sun too hot through the window, but coldest spot for it at night, there is too much of cold and hot, rather than a constant temp. that tells the plant to survive..and it drops its leaves to sustain the roots.   do not add more water, if it feels moist to the touch.

try bringing in a bit in from the glass. if you can when sun is not too hot bring it closer to light, but back it away from cold nights and scorting sun. Even in the fields, young trees drop their leaves.  it is a delicate stage. Sometimes fertilizers make them grow, but their roots cannot sustain the growth, there they also drop their leaves. My Black Madeira is inside of a tall cold frame  inside of a 5 gallon water bottle with no bottom. So far it is just a stick with a tiny green eye. I love it.  We had ONE warm say meaning with sunshine and it got hot in there almost 80, for that I dropped a shade fabric over the bottle. I know the sun will scortch the new leaves.

Please who grow kiwis also have that ... figs, kiwis and many others are sensitive. Unlike 'weeds' we don't want.

The UCDavis Black Madiera is a notorious psychotic drama queen. I believe the FMV has scrambled its neurons. It will commit hari-kiri at the slightest perceived injustice.

Thanks for everyone who took the time to reply.  I feel a lot better.  For now I'll move back from the glass in the evening and closer during the day, after the direct sun is no longer beaming into the window.  Also not going to water until the pot feels a little lighter.  

[QUOTE=FMD]The UCDavis Black Madiera is a notorious psychotic drama queen. I believe the FMV has scrambled its neurons. It will commit hari-kiri at the slightest perceived injustice.[/QUOTE]

Ours makes top notch tasting figs but then again that on my palate.
NYC-Look forward to future pictures.

BM has been good to me as far as growth is concerned. tho.. with all that rain, and the tree in its first yr, i didn't get to taste the potential. i'm waiting for it... 

Tops in yard last several years and i do not see anything that will surpass it
in our yard but time will tell .

Hi nycfig,
I would say over watering or transplant shock . Did you touch the roots ?
I would try a heating panel under the pot to get the dirt to dry quicker .

[QUOTE=nycfig]Thanks for everyone who took the time to reply.  I feel a lot better.  For now I'll move back from the glass in the evening and closer during the day, after the direct sun is no longer beaming into the window.  Also not going to water until the pot feels a little lighter.  [/QUOTE]

Yup, it could be anything. But as others have suggested, move it back from your window a bit in the evening.

BTW: I solved a lot of my fig issues by moving from Elmira NY, 5a, to Athens, GA, 7b. No awful dreary winters here! Figs and a pomegranate tree in my new yard!  :-)

Prof. Joe

I believe watering is critical. Normally they are slow/weak rooters. The weakest rooters I’ve grown. I’ve read some stories about BM dying. Over the last 10 years I’ve grown about 80 BM’s to various stages of maturity and have never lost one but I have seen them drop all their leaves after transplanting into a pot with too much soil. It’s my experience that they prefer a high ratio of roots to soil. Early last year I transplanted 6 well-rooted quarts into gallon milk containers. A high ratio of soil to roots. It unexpectedly poured one night and all 6 were drenched. Over the next week the leaves began dropping until there were none left. Took 2 months for them to comeback. The BM picture at the end of my BM auctions was in a 12” clay pot.

Danny, what size of cup was your BM in prior to moving into that pot?

As Keith (KK) says, moving into too large of a pot can be detrimental.  All of the new soil acts as a large reservoir for water and now the existing root system is kept much more moist than it previously had been (in most cases, if it was being watered carefully).  In a very vigorously-growing fig I will move it into a larger pot than I would for a more slowly-growing fig such as is typical for Black Madeira.

You might dig away some of the potting soil along the edges of your new pot to help the potting mix dry out a bit faster and then only water in near the center of the pot so that the "reservoir" doesn't get saturated.

[QUOTE=HarveyC]
You might dig away some of the potting soil along the edges of your new pot to help the potting mix dry out a bit faster and then only water in near the center of the pot so that the "reservoir" doesn't get saturated.[/QUOTE]


Sometimes its obvious when you over water a small cutting. When I do it I put several sheets of crumpled paper towel in a similar sized pot and gently push the over watered plant down into the PT. Drains the water right out in a couple of hours. If it was really over watered I'll do it twice. Its important to crumple so the PT reaches into the drainage holes.

Good evening all.  Thanks again for the responses.

After the BM rooted in a baggie it was moved to a 16 oz. cup with 50/50 UPM and Perlite.  Soon after it took off like it was on steroids.  Up-Potted to 1 gal. with 1/1/1 of UPM, Peat Moss and Perlite.  When I took it from the cup, most of the UPM and Perlite fell away and couldn't help to touch the roots a little while working with the plant, soil and pot.  The roots looked very strong; thick and healthy.  After potting up it did great for a few days and then started dropping its healthy leaves.

I moved it back from the window a little after the sun went down this evening.  The soil is not drenched and looks like it is drying up a little.  When I put my finger down about an inch I can feel that it is still moist.  From everyones responses I'm guessing that I may have watered too much after up-potting.  Add the transplant shock to the equation and that's probably the answer. Going to let it dry out and lighten up a bit.  That last leaf is hanging on for dear life.  It is very distressing to see an otherwise healthy plant dropping all of those beautiful, healthy leaves.  I hope that I didn't kill it and she'll bounce back.

UPM is peat based potting mix. add peat moss on top of that and it will hold more water. to lessen the issue with root, i keep same soil mix as in the cup. once the roots are hardened, i bare root and manhandled the roots going into 3 gal or larger. at that point, i water with hose until water runs out few times. 

Of it has a decent root system ratio to plant it will be fine just a mild setback.
Madeira is tougher than some give credit for.

How do i know well mine was budding out but did not like the low 40s
in evenning suring fig shuffle and died fully to soil level .
Left it be until i saw new growth that summer it came back from soil level with a little care and was topped at about 3 feet.
Good luck.

Danny, I too have lost a BM last month. And this month another BM is dying on me. I just don't know what went wrong. The watering is just right, no fungus, no gnats. I guess if it is time for them to go then they just go. All my other cuttings are doing very well. Norhayati

Some varieties are propagated by grafting easier.

rooted 5 BM so far. 4 of them rooted and grew fine. one of them just died without much action. but some cuttings do that. another one did the same was one of USDA/UCD Ischia Black. i had two cuttings. one is growing nicely, other just died. i pulled them out once they were dead. didn't find any specific issues. no rotted cutting. the roots just all died and went away. 

Pete, I thought PM made a mix lighter and faster draining?  I think I will follow your advice and keep same mix when coming out of a cup.  It's just hard to get UPM over here.  It's like black gold.

BM seems to be doing same as yesterday.  Leaf still holding on and moved back toward the sun.  The new growth and bud on top look very lively and green.  That seems to be a good sign.

"Over the last 10 years I’ve grown about 80 BM’s to various stages of maturity and have never lost one but I have seen them drop all their leaves after transplanting into a pot with too much soil. It’s my experience that they prefer a high ratio of roots to soil."

KK and others, I was planning on up-potting my 1 year old Black Madeira and Figo Preto from a 3 gallon containers to 15 gallon containers this Spring.  Should I go to 6 gallon instead this year and then on to 15 gallon next year?  Or should they be ok going directly to 15 gallon since the root system at this point is relatively mature?

Steve i went from 3 gallon in June  to 25 gallon container(small plant on right) in August last season with this airlayer pictured below.

One has to be carefully not to over water it or you make mush out of the roots stop the plumbing
system and likely kill the plant.

Pictures below

I agree Martin, BM seems to be able to handle more drought than other trees, it's one of the few that if I don't water frequently that it doesn't seem to mind.  It just seems to eat up the heat and not worry too much about water.

Martin and Chivas - thanks for your comments.  I'm actually going from 3 gallon (not 1 gallon - post above corrected) to 15 gallon.  So I think I'll go ahead with it but be careful with the watering.

[QUOTE=Chivas]I agree Martin, BM seems to be able to handle more drought than other trees, it's one of the few that if I don't water frequently that it doesn't seem to mind.  It just seems to eat up the heat and not worry too much about water.[/QUOTE]

Yes, Yes I agree

[QUOTE=Rewton]  I was planning on up-potting my 1 year old Black Madeira and Figo Preto from a 3 gallon containers to 15 gallon containers this Spring.  Should I go to 6 gallon instead this year and then on to 15 gallon next year?  Or should they be ok going directly to 15 gallon since the root system at this point is relatively mature?
[/QUOTE]

Different things work for different people. If it were my plant I would not move a 3 gal BM to a 15 gal, but that’s just me.

I had a one year old thoroughly rooted BM in a milk gallon container. The next year I moved it to what they call a 20-pound pail, about 4 gallons.  At the end of the season I pulled it to check the roots and take some pics to sell on eBay. Keep in mind I was photographing the sides with the most roots to make the sale. These roots are pitiful compared to every other fig I’ve grown. I see more dirt than roots. I never did sell it.

And I fert every 10 – 14 days. My 1^st BM (Thanks Jon) lived in a 12” clay pot the second year. The next year I moved  to a 15” clay pot and then a 20” clay pot. It now lives in a 20 gallon plastic tub. I can't be sure but I think it did better in a clay pot.

[QUOTE=Rewton]  So I think I'll go ahead with it but be careful with the watering.[/QUOTE]

Hmm. One thing I didn't mention is that the larger container I hope to move the Bl. Madeira up to is a SIP.  That could be another wrinkle if this variety is more sensitive than most to moist soil.  Does anyone have experience with B.M. in a SIP?

Steve sorry cant help you with the SIP i like to keep the plants in a simple regular containers which
work fine in our yard.

My BM from KK is in a 5g SIP.  It LOVES it.  The soil mix it is in is 50% pine bark fines, 40% Miracle Grow, 10% perlite along with a few scoops of limestone and a couple of capfulls of osmocote.  I do however use only ro/di water with nearly 0 TDS, as opposed to my town well water.

[URL=http://s110.photobucket.com/user/johnnyq627/media/mili/cementary/2014Apr9/IMAG0958.jpg.html][IMG]http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n105/johnnyq627/mili/cementary/2014Apr9/IMAG0958.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

My BM seems to have taken a turn for the worst.  Stopped watering.  Pot was paper light.  Started taking outside for a few hours at a time each day in warm daytime temps.  Began watering again with 5-7 sprays from spray bottle every other day.  Poked finger down into soil to feel for moisture first.  Looked like all was going well until a few days ago when last leaf started curling up and dying.  It's holding on but doesn't look good.  Only hope is terminal bud had brown membrane on top which dried up and fell off last night.  I hope that means it's growing a little.  Fearing the worst.

 

danny, 

instead of spraying for watering, water well once, and leave it alone till next watering. when you spray the top of the pot, the water usually doesn't penetrate deep down to the roots.

i would suggest this. get a bin, fill it with warm water to about 1/3 of the pot's height. add very weak MG fertilizer. bottom feed the BM by letting the pot rest in the bin for about 3-4 min. once 3-4 min is up, pick it up. tilt it at 45 angle and wait until all the water drains out. wait till next time the pot is almost dried and do it again. do not leave the plant in direct sunlight. nice shade will do until it recovers. 

another thing.. don't wait till the pot is paper light. i know i probably said to wait till it's very very light, but some of the potting soil will become hydrophobic once they are dried to a point and will not soak up water. you want it to be almost dried, but not to a point where it will repel water. 

Thanks Pete.  Since I sprayed today already I'll give it a shot tomorrow morning.  Appreciate the advice.

An update on my B Mad.

Watered all of the 1 gal's, including BM, from the bottom using a very weak MG fertilizer.  All of the 1 gal's took the water up great.  Over the next couple of days a few got lighter and most didn't.  The BM was one that didn't.  I stuck my finger down into the soil and felt something hard.  Started moving the soil and found a peat pot.  I forgot the BM was started in a peat pot!  A few months ago I was on the 'peat pot train' and realized that it was not working out for me.  Thought I had removed everything from the peat pots but forgot that some had made it into 1 gal's.  I usually stick my finger down the side of the pot to check for moisture and never felt the peat pots.  Turns out 8 of the 1 gal's were still in peat pots.

I ran to the local nursery and bought some Howe Professional Growers Mix (Really nice stuff!).  Added a tiny bit of concentrated manure and a little perlite.  Removed the peat pots from the 1 gal's and slowly peeled them away from the root balls (None of them actually pushed roots through the peat pots!).  The roots came away from the pots easy enough and although confined they looked pretty healthy.  Repotted and gave a big drink to each.

BM had one long, thin root that came out of the hole on the bottom of the peat pot.  I'm now guessing that it was not enough to support the top growth and that's why all of the leaves fell off.  There is still about 2 solid inches of green leading up to the terminal bud which looks really good.  Looks like it's pushing another bud too.  Maybe it's not too late and she'll make it.  Feel like an idiot.  Have my fingers crossed.  Thanks for listening.

old jiffy peat pot used to work great. the roots will easily penetrate the peat pot and they will grow well. however, the new design is making it hard for the roots to come out of the peat pot. i noticed this last yr when the design changed. most of my last yrs cuttings have roots circling inside of the peat pot until they break down. believe it or not, this shouldn't be a big issue unless the cutting is having specially hard time putting on the strong roots. 

most of the cuttings this winter were very strong growers. they all penetrated the new peat pots, if not went through the bottom or came up to the top. 

i still use peat pot method, and they are all in the 1 gal with peat pot. this is not a big issue for me since i bare root going from 1 gal to larger containers. at the time of repot, i would spread out the roots and cut the ones having problem. this is good time to trim the roots that will circle and girdle the cutting. 

using peat pot is a great idea when in cup stage. for those who are having issue with watering, peat pot will show you when you need to water them. also the idea is that peat pot will break down once in the 1 gal. 

but from what i'm hearing this might not be the case. it's working for me doesn't mean it will work for everyone. from pete s.'s updates, peat pot will hold water and that can kill the roots. 

here is a pix of Unk Pearl Harbor in cup stage currently. as you can see, this is very strong rooter. the new peat pot didn't cause much issue to this cutting. 

 

Pete, I remember reading your posts on peat pots when I started using them, so I started poking holes in the pots with a pencil.  I figured it would be easier for the roots to find their way out.  Not so much.  The ones that I repotted last night were all from the original batch with no holes poked in the sides.

Overall peat pots were a failure for me.  Have better success with a quality growing medium and cups.  But like you said, what works well for one does not always work well for another.

Your Unk Pearl Harbor looks great!

Pete, I have been using the Jiffy peat pots (#3) for a couple years and haven't noticed a change in them since then.  The majority of the time when I pot-up (from the 16 oz cup with the peat pot insert) to 1 gallon there are roots penetrating the peat pot along the side as you show.  I do know that there are other brands of peat pot out there - maybe they behave differently?  Or maybe Jiffy has introduced new peat pot designs in some parts of the country but not others?

danny, yupe. everyone has little different way of doing things and some works and some doesn't. lately, i have been soaking the peat pot over night in warm water to break them down before using them. one thing i really like about peat pot is when moving to 1 gal. with this method, i don't disturb the roots are all. they come out like a plug and makes it easy for me. at the same time, i'm trying to move away from peat pot method. will be using plain potting soil/perlite on few of the new cuttings to see if it will work for me. i'm thinking that now i know how to water them and when, if i let them put on enough roots, it will hold the soil mix and i won't have to disturb the roots too much.. unless the roots start to get stuck on the cup.. but few broken roots won't matter too much. 

One thing I have done with peat pots as I move up to 1 gallon is very carefully perforate the sides and bottom of the pot in a few places to make it easier for the roots to escape.  I don't know if this helps or not.

• Help with BM
• Over the last 10 years I’ve grown about 80 BM’s to various stages of maturity...
• what size of cup was your BM in prior to moving into that pot?
• ...the BM rooted in a baggie...
• My BM seems to have taken a turn for the worst.

laughing is good for you.. so is laughing so much ending up crying. x) 

I have chosen to laugh instead of cry - at times it didn't make much of a difference.

MY UC Davis BM cuttings should be famous.  The one which rooted last year has a green bud on it - it's also the same size it was when planted.  It failed to get larger (at all) over the entire course of a Summer.  And yet, it is alive.  Go figure.

With the weather we're having now (really cool) I expect the new pair of cuttings (assuming the small bit of bud I see under the microscope on one) might overtake the mighty 1 year old over the Summer - or not.

Andrew

give it good fertilizer. BM response well to fertilizer. like they say.. your mileage might vary, but i more or less double on the osmocote, and do regular dose of MG every week. it's still a slow grower, but very healthy. 

Andrew, Here is my post on the super speedy growing Black Madeira: http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/my-black-madeira-aka-the-slowest-tree-ever-6484609?pid=1279183893#post1279183893 There might be a light at the end of the tunnel. Even with the cooler weather, this tree has already put out twice it's total growth up to this year.

James, Hi. The cutting was cleaned with a 10% bleach solution, wrapped in a damp paper towel and placed in a 1 gal. Ziploc Baggie. Opened the Ziploc every day to air it out. The cutting had no issues with mold. I was surprised when roots developed within a few weeks. When roots were about 3/4" I planted in peat pot with 50/50, UPM/perlite, and placed peat pot in 16 oz. clear cup much the same as in Pete's pic above. Cup has lots of holes. I remember the roots grew like crazy out of the bottom of the peat pot. They were very thick and healthy looking. The cutting started leafing out like crazy, too. When the roots started encircling the cup I figured it was time to move up. I removed peat pot from cup. Roots and everything came out without any problems; no breakage, etc. Potted in 1 gal. nursery pot with 1/1/1, UPM/perlite/peat. Gave it a good drink of plain water. Started dropping healthy leaves a week later.

ah ha! you change the soil mix. :) 

UPM/perlite holds less water than UPM/perlite/peat. meaning when you give them the water, you are created two different zone. one near the cutting having less water than the one outside of the peat pot. so one dries up quicker than the other. this, in theory, can create problem with roots, specially when they are very young. 

..or so i think.. 

i use exact soil mix when i'm not repotting, meaning if i'm not bare rooting the plant, i use same mix so there won't be two zone of different moisture level in the pot. 

Sometimes they just take a turn for the worst. Not your fault it happens once in a while,just happens to be BM.

[quote=james]Barbra says I'm like 10 years old because I have been laughing while reading this thread.[/quote]

I kind of wish we'd all get away from using "BM" as an abbreviation for Black Madeira too, James.  (For those of you not in the U.S., you may not already know that's a very commonly used abbreviation for "bowel movement" in local slang in many parts of the U.S... basically a semi-polite slang version of "sh*t"... really an inappropriate association for something so regal and wondrous as a Black Madeira fig).  As an alternative, I like the way I've seen Jon abbreviate it, as BMad or B-Mad.

In any case, good luck with your BMad, Danny.  I lost the cutting I had going last year under similar initial symptoms.  (In my case, though, it turned out to be a small number of fungus gnat larvae that ate the small amount of roots it had put out, which manifested as lost leaves before it bit the dust).  (That seems different from what's going on for you, in your story above).  Good luck with the tree!

Mike   central NY state, zone 5