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Figfan203

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Posted Reply with quote  #1 
I had to move a 4 or 5 year old fig trees a few weeks ago and the winter really did a number on this tree. Even with it being wrapped in died down to the base of the tree. The new shoots the came up look diseased and the leaves are disformed...this tree has never displayed any signs of fmv or anything unhealthy. I did notice for jelly-like substance on one of the big cuts I made so maybe it's diseased?

My question:
Can I air layer one of the new shoots or do air layers need to be done on old wood
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Mike in zone 6B
loquat1

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Posted Reply with quote  #2 
What about starting again from a cutting? IMO, air-layering a shoot is a bit of a pointless exercise. 
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Costas
Aaron4USA

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Posted Reply with quote  #3 
any pictures?
ascpete

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Posted Reply with quote  #4 
Mike,
Air layering the shoots is the fastest way to get healthy root growth and new trees quickly. IMO, green stems often root faster than lignified wood.

BTW, the deformed first leaves are often just juvenile leaves and are due to stress. Once new roots start to grow and provide all the required nutrients the newer leaves will return to their normal shapes.
Good Luck.
drphil69

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Posted Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by loquat1
What about starting again from a cutting? IMO, air-layering a shoot is a bit of a pointless exercise. 


Can you explain why? 
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Phil - Zone 7A - Newark, DE Newbie fig lover just trying to learn.
Cajun

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Posted Reply with quote  #6 
I have seen the gel coming from my peach tree but never from a fig. From my online research I did at the time, it seems I recall the ooze in peach trees is in response to a bacterial infection of the cambium layer. FYI the peach has made it through and is doing fine...
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loquat1

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Posted Reply with quote  #7 
Sure thing drphil.

Firstly, to understand where I'm coming from, you need to check out this thread - if you haven't already seen it:

figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/air-layers-greek-style-6827365?&trail=50

Even if you only skim/scan it, you'll see that I have a penchant for doing things on a grand scale. So ok, this one is quite a bit bigger than my usual fayre, but the 3 subsidiary layers on this tree are generally the smallest I would consider as being worthwhile, bearing in mind effort, cost, etc.

To me, the whole point of a layer is to end up with a small tree at the very least, if not a mature one, that will yield ripe fruit in its first year - 2nd year at the latest. A layer made from a young shoot is not gonna do that for you. You may have to wait 3-4 years (maybe more) before it yields anything useful. 

If all a layer does is give you a runt that's not a whole lot bigger than a cutting, then I would save time & money by going for the cutting. The only consideration then is where I would draw the line between the two, but that's another story. Maybe I'll illustrate sometime with some pics to show you roughly where my line is.

And Aaron is right - a pic would be useful so I can assess whether it's big enough to make layering worthwhile according to the yardstick I use to judge such matters.

Hope that helps, otherwise let me know if you have any further ?'ns.
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DallasFigs

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Posted Reply with quote  #8 
Absolutely do air layers. It's less risky than doing cuttings, as the shoot is still being fed by the underground roots. Doesn't matter if it's still a little green. Keep it going till it has lots of new roots before cutting it off. If the leaves severely wilt after cutting it off, just trim off 80% of the area of each leaf. If you have to do that, it won't look pretty for a while, but it'll be better for it and it will put out new leaves. Just need real good roots.
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ascpete

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Posted Reply with quote  #9 
Mike,
Like Costas, I'm also an advocate of large air layers but when the choices are limited, small air layers are always preferable to cuttings and they can be easy as http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/the-2-minute-air-layer-pictorial-5996173 or http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/worlds-smallest-air-propagator-diy-tutorial-6915668

They can then be grown in mini-SIPs http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/pictorial-the-5-minute-mini-sip-6416006 with my personal preference of the 2 or 3 liter mini SIP http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/show_single_post?pid=1280836240&postcount=69 before transplanting into 5 gallon buckets.
Figfan203

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Posted Reply with quote  #10 
It's saying my 1 single iPhone photo is too big to post(exceeds 1mb) I do t know how to post pics. I can text or email someone the pics I have. Or tell me how to post
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Mike in zone 6B
loquat1

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Posted Reply with quote  #11 
@ Mike - You need to download your pic onto your 'puter/laptop, etc., resize in Paint or similar software using either % or pixel reduction, save new (reduced size) file, then use Insert photos below the text box to upload your pic.
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Costas
ascpete

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Posted Reply with quote  #12 
Mike,
If you are using Windows you should have Microsoft Paint already installed. The attached pictures were taken with an IPhone and edited with Paint.

Windows 7 instructions...
If the pictures are on your computer open them with Paint and use the Resize function, select Percentage  and try 30% (to start), then Save as with a new file name, it also has to have a standard picture format (extension) to be recognized by the forum software, if it opens in Paint it will be fine... The Forum software doesn't allow upload of pictures larger than 1 MB that's why resizing is necessary. I use Paint to resize my pictures and usually try to keep my picture below 600x460 for easier viewing on t

Windows XP instructions...
XP version of Paint has different commands...
for Paint XP, go to Image, then Stretch/Skew, then to Stretch type  30% in Horizontal and 30% in Vertical (they both have to be the same %), then Save As a new name...


BTW full disclosure, I've been planning on starting a few stool layers one for an in ground tree that was transplanted last year and for another tree that was severely pruned, both due to died back. The "mounding" will start after at least 12" of stem growth.
nolaDark_beforeStooling..jpg layering-plants-different-methods.jpg 

And I will be starting air layers on this large cutting after another 6" of stem growth.
LargeCaliper_FigCuttings.jpg 
loquat1

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Posted Reply with quote  #13 
@ James & Pete - I take your points, and yes, they are perfectly valid. If you're familiar with my topics/threads, you'll know that I'm a great fan of air-layers. Especially the gargantuan variety. If Mike only had one shot at this, and it had to be 100% guaranteed, then no question - air layer all the way. But if there are several shoots (as he seems to imply), then he can afford to experiment with both methods of propagation, can he not?

I also agree that layers can be done more quickly than the method I use, and the 2 minute method (I seriously doubt it can be done in that time anyway) might well be appropriate for Mike's shoots. Personally, I've never got on with that method, and because I go out of my way to select the largest possible candidates for layering, it simply would not work for me. 

But hey, we all have our preferred MO's, right? If you're happy with your methods & results, just stick to what you're doing. It's not my place to proselytize for one method over another. 
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Costas
ascpete

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Posted Reply with quote  #14 
Costas,
Yes, we all have our personal favorite or preferred techniques and opinions which can be shared and discussed on the forum.

But my original reason for posting was to answer Mike's question "Can I air layer one of the new shoots or do air layers need to be done on old wood." It then expanded to provide personal pertinent info and examples to clarify my opinion in the discussion.
loquat1

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Posted Reply with quote  #15 
@ Pete - I was answering the same question via an alternative suggestion. Doesn't mean I expect him to adopt it. Just increasing his range of options, which is what I appreciate whenever I ask members for advice.
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Costas
drphil69

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Posted Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by loquat1
Sure thing drphil.

Firstly, to understand where I'm coming from, you need to check out this thread - if you haven't already seen it:

figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/air-layers-greek-style-6827365?&trail=50

Even if you only skim/scan it, you'll see that I have a penchant for doing things on a grand scale. So ok, this one is quite a bit bigger than my usual fayre, but the 3 subsidiary layers on this tree are generally the smallest I would consider as being worthwhile, bearing in mind effort, cost, etc.

To me, the whole point of a layer is to end up with a small tree at the very least, if not a mature one, that will yield ripe fruit in its first year - 2nd year at the latest. A layer made from a young shoot is not gonna do that for you. You may have to wait 3-4 years (maybe more) before it yields anything useful. 

If all a layer does is give you a runt that's not a whole lot bigger than a cutting, then I would save time & money by going for the cutting. The only consideration then is where I would draw the line between the two, but that's another story. Maybe I'll illustrate sometime with some pics to show you roughly where my line is.

And Aaron is right - a pic would be useful so I can assess whether it's big enough to make layering worthwhile according to the yardstick I use to judge such matters.

Hope that helps, otherwise let me know if you have any further ?'ns.


Thanks Costas, I see what you are saying.

I've only done one air layer, and it was a small branch not a green shoot.  What I found was once set up, it was much easier than a cutting, required less time and care, and in the end I have what I would have had with a cutting, maybe a bit faster.  I haven't done a green shoot though.  I'm new at this so all my trees are small :-(    When I had the chance to make a back up VdB by an air layer I took it.  I agree, it is basically a cutting... but I did find it easier.

And I did see that thread, large scale is right!  Nice work!
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Phil - Zone 7A - Newark, DE Newbie fig lover just trying to learn.
drphil69

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Posted Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Figfan203
It's saying my 1 single iPhone photo is too big to post(exceeds 1mb) I do t know how to post pics. I can text or email someone the pics I have. Or tell me how to post


You may also be able to use a lower setting when you take the pics.  I don't have an iPhone, but my Droid can do it!

I use a free program called "Fast Photo Resizer."  It allows you to batch resize, i.e. entire folders, as well as set the final size for all pics (or resize the "long" side to fixed value, which I like as it keeps the right aspect ratio).  I downloaded it through cnet.
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Phil - Zone 7A - Newark, DE Newbie fig lover just trying to learn.
jdsfrance

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Posted Reply with quote  #18 
Hi Figfan203,
Because the shoots come from the dirt, you'll go ground-layer and not air-layer.
Ground layer is even easier :
Fertilize the tree.
Put a square made of wood -say 50 cm*50 cm and 10 or 20 centimeters of height- so that all the shoots are in the area delimited by the square.
Fill the square with dirt - better, if you can fill it with compost as compost will have more nutrients.
If some shoots are too short, just remove some compost from around them for the first weeks for them to grow over the compost level.
Fertilize again, and water the zone as a normal tree, or a bit more, you want the stems to grow as quickly as possible .
When the tree goes dormant or before serious frost, water well the area and with a shovel remove the rooted shoots that you want to remove.
You could make several small airlayers at dirt level, but since the main stem is gone ... I would make one big-sized airlayer .

As for the leaves looking weird, it is normal for young leaves to look different .
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loquat1

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Posted Reply with quote  #19 
@ drphil

Quote:
Thanks Costas, I see what you are saying.

I've only done one air layer, and it was a small branch not a green shoot.  What I found was once set up, it was much easier than a cutting, required less time and care, and in the end I have what I would have had with a cutting, maybe a bit faster.  I haven't done a green shoot though.  I'm new at this so all my trees are small :-(    When I had the chance to make a back up VdB by an air layer I took it.  I agree, it is basically a cutting... but I did find it easier.


I think your approach is about right. If it's a question of 'backing-up' a prize variety, then you want guaranteed success. An air-layer will give you that, and if you find them easier & lower maintenance than a cutting, then so much the better.

As for only having small trees, you just need to be a little patient. You'll be amazed how quickly they grow, and you'll soon be complaining they are too big. My TbF (unidentified) is starting to take over the garden, and is in dire need of some serious layering to cut it back down to size. Unfortunately, it's a bit too late in the season now to do the really large layers, so I'm concentrating on layering the surplus branches that get in the way of the big boys, or taking cuttings if they are a bit 'leggy'. 
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loquat1

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Posted Reply with quote  #20 
@ jdsf

Quote:
Because the shoots come from the dirt, you'll go ground-layer and not air-layer.


Shoot! Pun intended. I forgot/overlooked the fact that these are ground shoots. For some inexplicable reason, I still had stem shoots in my mind's eye, even tho Mike mentions die-back to ground level. Doh. So, sorry guys. I take it all back. Ground layers definitely the way to go. Well spotted fdsf.

And agreed, ground layers are so much easier than air. Practically all you need to do is surround them with soil/pm/mulch/bark chip/muck etc at the base within some kinda enclosure, and bob's your uncle. Couldn't be simpler.
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