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BronxFigs

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Posted Reply with quote  #51 
A wonderful tutorial filled with information.  How can anyone go wrong if they follow this thread. 

Personally, I think air-layering is far better than starting cuttings.  It's just as easy, and if you start the air-layers on the larger branches, you can have many fruiting-size trees in just one season, and with better root systems.

Nice work Costas.

Frank
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loquat1

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Posted Reply with quote  #52 
Couldn't agree with you more Frank. I've always favored layers over cuttings for precisely those reasons. The only other method I would consider is grafting, which I might well try this season. 

In this particular case (assuming it doesn't fall over), you get a mature tree from the off - magic. And most likely ripe fruit in the first season to boot. What more could you ask?

Thx for the kind words. The cheque's in the post.
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Posted Reply with quote  #53 
OK guys (and gals), I now have pics of PHASE II. I did the 3 subsidiary layers last Wed/Thurs. If there's any interest, I'll post later today or early tomorrow with suitable (brief) notes. It's basically the same method, only of course on a smaller scale.

If the main layer fails, at least I'm in with a very good chance of getting 3 small layers out of this little/big project. I regard it as my insurance policy. I'll also have some spare sphagnum moss that can be used on other layers!
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Posted Reply with quote  #54 
This may not be in the right place, but around how big should a fig tree be before attempting to airlayer it?
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Posted Reply with quote  #55 
It's nice to see the process through the progress to the end Costas... load them up bro.
pino

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Posted Reply with quote  #56 
This is a very interesting idea.  I would have never thought to air layer something so big.
Did you leave enough room below the air layer so you have room to work and can safely cut it off and leave a stub to heal so not to damage the mother plant?
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Dieseler

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Posted Reply with quote  #57 
Fun to read and also nice pictures to boot.
Thanks for showing us what you did.
loquat1

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Posted Reply with quote  #58 
@ Patrick - Thanks for your question. I have a 1 yr old Greek Black grown from a cutting that has, in effect, 'bifurcated' from the main stem at a very low level. I'll post a pic later so you can see what I mean.

Anyway, the result is an unsightly-looking plant. The usual solution to this would be to simply remove the smaller of the 2 shoots, and either use it for cuttings, or simply discard. But why not air-layer it instead? So ok, this is not my usual or preferred size for a layer, but since I've already got a home for this one (actually, a forum member), there's no reason I know of why this cannot be done on 'rogue' shoots on even small trees. But if you want to know when I usually do my main 'giant' layers, see my #44 post above.

So that now leaves me with a potted tree that has a single shoot growing at roughly 45 degrees - still unsightly. How am I gonna solve that 'problem'? Well, I could layer that as well, then re-pot straight, but why not simply put it in the ground with the root ball at an angle so that the shoot itself points straight up towards the sky instead of sideways? Problem solved.

@ Aaron - Thanks for your continued interest 'bro'. Watch this space.
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Posted Reply with quote  #59 
Costas types -So that now leaves me with a potted tree that has a single shoot growing at roughly 45 degrees - still unsightly. How am I gonna solve that 'problem'? Well, I could layer that as well, then re-pot straight, but why not simply put it in the ground with the root ball at an angle so that the shoot itself points straight up towards the sky instead of sideways? Problem solved.

Yup .  ; )
loquat1

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Posted Reply with quote  #60 
@ Joe: Yes indeed - that's one of the principle functions of the donut - to raise the container a good 4-5" above the point where it meets the trunk, and prevent it from sliding down to the trunk. That's why it needs to be pretty secure, and why I use string or wire ties to stop it unravelling.

It also serves to restrict the size of the hole made in the container, which by definition is gonna be bigger than the diameter of the branch. You could end up losing some of your growing medium if you didn't plug the hole.
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Posted Reply with quote  #61 
Sorry Martin, I do occasionally state the blindingly obvious. But don't forget, what's obvious to one person may not be so to another.
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Posted Reply with quote  #62 
Ok, here goes. These are the containers I've selected as being of suitable size for these layers. They are actually 3ltr olive barrels. Yep, we bulk-buy our olives too. As you can probably tell by now, we also like to do things on a grand scale over here across the pond.

But, as previously mentioned, the problem with these opaque containers is that it does make root inspection a bit trickier. Oh well, you can't have everything.

AAPhase II_Containers_CloseUp 001.jpg 

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Posted Reply with quote  #63 
The containers in context to give you an idea of scale:

ABPhase II_Overview_Empty Cntnrs_002.jpg 

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Dieseler

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Posted Reply with quote  #64 
Costas with those containers you can cut out in middle a section and tape with clear packing tape for your window.
I did this with a 1 or 2 gallon container several years back and can see roots then.
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Posted Reply with quote  #65 
A close-up of the doughnuts. Also illustrates the point discussed earlier (raised by Joe I believe) about their function - ie ensuring enough distance from the main stem to allow enough 'elbow room' for severing, etc.

CPhase II_DNut CloseUp_003.jpg 

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Posted Reply with quote  #66 
Hmm, that sounds like a neat idea Martin. Yeah, could well work. Might try it next time - thanks.
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Posted Reply with quote  #67 
So, one of the barrels filled with the moss, and secured with some wire tie.

DPhase II_Barrel filled_004.jpg 

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Posted Reply with quote  #68 
The 3 finished subsidiary layers suitably covered.

EPhase II_Finsihed Layers_ 005.jpg 

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Posted Reply with quote  #69 
In context.

FPhase II_Context_Finished_006.jpg 

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pino

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Posted Reply with quote  #70 
Costas,  I am amazed you can do this.
You get a fully grown tree probably producing figs in 1st year?
Do you trim the new tree down or leave it the size in the photos?
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Posted Reply with quote  #71 
And an overview from a little further away. BTW, the main layer has a gross height of 8.5' (ie including the container), and the trunk an average dia. of 1.9". When sunk into the ground, it will stand around 7' tall.

Phase II_OView3_007.jpg 

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Posted Reply with quote  #72 
Hello again Joe. Why so amazed? There's nothing special about what I do - anybody on this forum can do it, given the right equipment.

But yes, I would expect to have ripe fruit off this tree in it's first year. Indeed, fruit ripens on it whilst still attached to the parent tree, so I assume you count the 1st year as the 1st growing season after being detached from the parent tree. I'd be very surprised if it failed to deliver in its 1st year.

As for cutting back, well yes, I guess you could do that, but I prefer to leave well alone for a year or 2 at least. Humanly speaking, it's already been thru one trauma, so I'd rather save the additional 'surgery' for a later date. I know about the increased risk of failure if there's too much on top of the root ball, but I'll take my chances & trust my judgement on that one.
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Posted Reply with quote  #73 
OT, but this one's for Rafed:

Phase II 021.JPG 

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Posted Reply with quote  #74 
And here's another one:

Phase II 022.JPG 

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Posted Reply with quote  #75 
And yet another:

Phase II 025.JPG 

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Posted Reply with quote  #76 
And here are the other 'giant' layers, though these are speculative - in the sense that I have no idea if they will take. But I figured they were worth a try. I might also try a less ambitious layer on each tree on the basis that a younger shoot probably has a more active cambium layer that is more likely to throw out roots.

First, the bay leaf bush:

Phase II 010.JPG 

And secondly, the plum that looks like a large cherry:

Phase II 018.JPG 

And finally the plum tree a little further away for context:

Phase II 020.JPG 




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Posted Reply with quote  #77 
@ Joe 

Quote:
Do you trim the new tree down or leave it the size in the photos?


Forgot to mention. Take another look at the pics in # 63 & 65. See where the main stem continues above the 3 branches that are now layered? The long-term plan (ie a yr or 2 down the line) is to layer it again at that point and get another mature tree out of it. So that's a total of 3 trees from one. Not bad, eh? For that reason, I'm reluctant to cut it back, either now or after it's been removed from the parent plant. Nothing goes to waste around here.
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Posted Reply with quote  #78 
Courtesy of Frank, here is a related link:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/fig/msg0401294522811.html

Aaron, you should take a look at this, as it also addresses a question you put to me above. What I like about this thread is that it suggests even ordinary soil works just fine - just gotta try that now, & save myself a small fortune on that sphag. moss. I think I might go with ordinary potting compost first by way of comparison and experiment. Can't wait to see the results.

Thanks Frank, that's one cool link, and as you say, the method shown here is not a million miles from what I do. I guess we Greeks use slight variations of the same basic themes.
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rafed

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Posted Reply with quote  #79 
Those Loquat trees looks nice Costas.

A few years ago I picked up a load from a place Palos Alto, California. It's near San Francisco.
There was a Loquat tree there and it was loaded with pea sized fruit.

The people there didn't know what it was but I told them they were lucky to have such a tree and didn't know what they were missing. I told them to keep an eye on the fruit for the next couple months as they grow.

But back to your air layer,
I have to tell you this is an amazing job you are doing.
No matter what method you use in air layering yours has topped them all. I never imagined doing an entire tree like this.

My idea was just to do the main trunk and send the root ball to a friend. But now with your method I will also do a couple branches to go along.

Thanks for the idea.
Dieseler

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Posted Reply with quote  #80 
Costas here is example of the window taped inside and outside with clear tape so roots can be seen.
The figs left on did ripen.

Attached Images
jpeg Jolly_Tiger_3.jpg.JPG (136.87 KB, 70 views)
jpeg Jolly_Tiger_Airlayer.jpg.JPG (106.32 KB, 70 views)
loquat1

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Posted Reply with quote  #81 
@ Rafed - You're welcome. Always glad to expand others' horizons about what is possible.

@ Martin - Hmm, I see what you mean now. Yep, I think that's not only a good solution to the opaque container problem, but also still doable even now. It occurs to me that if I cut out a strip of the container near its base and then cover the gap with strong transparent adhesive tape, I could probably still get a working version of a 'window' for my layers. Of course, the tape can only be applied to the outside of the container now, but I don't see why that still won't work as a compromise version of the same basic idea.

Alternatively, I could simply wait till the end of the growing season like those Gk farmers in Frank's link, and detach after those containers are 'bulging' with roots. How could that root ball possibly fail to support the growth above?
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Posted Reply with quote  #82 
Sure could do that you may rip just a few roots with tape on outside but it won't hurt anything .
With that size container i would thing it can support the plant well.

Have used regular size water bottle for airlayers and at worst lost leaves with the bigger airlayers but never the plant.
Best of luck .
loquat1

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Posted Reply with quote  #83 
@ Martin - As you say, tearing a few roots that are stuck to the tape is neither here nor there. In fact, I'm even beginning to question the need for any tape at all. Simply cutting a narrow 'window' into the container near its base with a box cutter then covering up again with the black sack should also do the trick. To inspect root growth, I would only need to remove the black sack, which has to be done anyway even for transparent containers. I doubt the moss would 'leak' if the window is narrow enough.

I also have lost leaves from my largest layers, and wondered if they might be dying. But since dormancy was their normal state around that time anyway, I wasn't too concerned. Sure enough, by the following spring, new shoots could be seen pushing thru every time.

My guess is that separation from the parent tree can induce premature dormancy as a survival mechanism, but the new tree always recovers. Luckily for us fig lovers, they seem to be very resilient trees, and their ability to shed leaves probably has a lot to do with that.
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Posted Reply with quote  #84 
Hi loquat1,
If they loose leaves, it is because you don't water them - you can sustain them just with watering.
My actual biggest ufti had 7 trunks - and I tared 3 apart in September 2012 - you can imagine I sew them but I sew in the dirt - they had an handfull of roots and dirt attached to their base.
In 2013, one had 4 brebas no maincrop, the two others together got 20 maincrop figs. One 11 Liters watering can every day or two days - that was all it took me - they had some light wilted leaves for 3 days, and then they took off .
No leaf was lost - but they had no figs hanging on them since February 2012 hurt them bad !
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Posted Reply with quote  #85 
Hello jdsf

All my layers, even the largest, go straight into pots after separation. And I most certainly do water them, but 11ltrs a day is out of the question and unnecessary when they are potted. I don't ground them, coz I rarely keep them for myself - my layers are almost always given away. I prefer to give growing trees or branches rather than cuttings, for obvious reasons.

But thanks for your interest and post anyway.
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Posted Reply with quote  #86 
Always enjoy members pictures on forum and Costas i look forward to seeing this season more of yours.
loquat1

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Posted Reply with quote  #87 
There will be a bit of a gap now, coz none of those layers will be coming off anytime soon. My best guess is 3 months for the subsidiary layers, and 4-5 months for the main layer. So in fact that's a total of 5 new trees from the one original. Amazing.

I'll be layering my Gk Yellow tonight. Luke and Liza will be pleased. They are on my list as recipients.
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Posted Reply with quote  #88 
Quote:
Originally Posted by loquat1
There will be a bit of a gap now, coz none of those layers will be coming off anytime soon. My best guess is 3 months for the subsidiary layers, and 4-5 months for the main layer. So in fact that's a total of 5 new trees from the one original. Amazing.

I'll be layering my Gk Yellow tonight. Luke and Liza will be pleased. They are on my list as recipients.


Ah thats just fine !
loquat1

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Posted Reply with quote  #89 
Quote:
My favorite method of rooting cuttings came from the advice of an old Greek.  It is to just lay them in a trench, cover with soil in partial sun, sprinkle them now and then and be surprised when one day they pop up as little trees.  I leave them in their spots for a few months to be sure they have good root systems.  No mold, rot or fungus gnats with that method.       - Suzi

                                                                                       

Suzi, do you mean like this?:

Tday 004.JPG 
I covered these (actually cuttings from my unidentified TbF [Tasty but Fussy], so slightly OT) with about 2-3" of PM, but if they sprout, I can imagine it might be quite tricky to separate those roots without losing some of them, Maybe I planted them too close together? Or maybe I shouldn't try separating all of them, and just grow them bush-style - ie in groups of 2-3 cuttings?

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Posted Reply with quote  #90 
Also slightly OT, but these are even more recent (& much smaller) layers done on my Gk Yellow:

Tday 005.JPG 

These branches are around 2.50 - 3.0' high (about 2 yrs growth), and I used 1.5 - 2ltr containers. Would it be correct to assume that the majority of layers done by forum members are roughly this size?

Before anyone asks, yes, they will be covered, tho with all that string getting in the way, I can see that will be slightly more tricky than usual.

And again in context for scale:

TDay1 001.JPG 

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Posted Reply with quote  #91 
Tip my hat very organized.
loquat1

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Posted Reply with quote  #92 
You're too kind Martin. Dunno how you coudda possibly got that impression from just seeing my air-layers tho.
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Posted Reply with quote  #93 
Been around forum a while and notice certain thing about members.  ; )
pino

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Posted Reply with quote  #94 
This air layering thing is giving me some ideas on how to propagate other trees that I have had challenges grafting in the past(i.e. nut trees).
Not all trees grow roots when girdled or encouraged with IBA or other hormones. 
Is there a way to know if a tree variety can be propagated by layering? 
Some trees I would like to propagate are sweet walnuts, sweet chestnuts, pomegranate, jujubes, persimmons, peaches, apricot and kiwi.
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Posted Reply with quote  #95 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pino
This air layering thing is giving me some ideas on how to propagate other trees that I have had challenges grafting in the past(i.e. nut trees).
Not all trees grow roots when girdled or encouraged with IBA or other hormones. 
Is there a way to know if a tree variety can be propagated by layering? 
Some trees I would like to propagate are sweet walnuts, sweet chestnuts, pomegranate, jujubes, persimmons, peaches, apricot and kiwi.


Joe,
I imagine there might be some online info about what species can be air-layered.  I am no expert, have not tried it yet, but I have heard that the walnut family and other nut trees, and peaches/plums/apricots are not very amenable to this method.  I saw above where Costas was trying it on a plum tree - I am interested in seeing what results from this.
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Posted Reply with quote  #96 
I'll update when I know myself, which won't be long now. If they throw out roots, there should be some evidence of them in a couple of weeks. I looked up air-layering on this plum tree, and I believe I came across a site that suggested layering was a possible method of propagation.

I'm not overly confident on this one coz I came across a similar ref. for loquats, which I have not been able to layer. All our loquats were grown from seed. I haven't looked up the bay leaf bush yet, but it occurs to me that I might have stood a better chance of success with both if I were less ambitious and stuck to layering young shoots instead. I might do that too as a back-up plan if I find any info. that suggests this is the preferred method.
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Posted Reply with quote  #97 
A serendipitous discovery. Always wondered if this was possible, but dismissed the idea coz I was pretty sure the plastic these pots are made from is too inflexible to work. I was wrong, & glad I tried it. Also glad I kept them - I normally throw them away. No more hunting around for suitable plastic bottles.

They are easier to fill than bottles coz of the wider mouth, easier to work with than flimsy plastic bottles, come in convenient different sizes that can be matched to air-layer size, and when separated are already in a presentable state if they are gifts for friends or relatives. What more could you ask? Perfect I say. Well, almost.

I have to qualify that, coz they are only really suitable if the branch is close to perpendicular. Much more than a 20 degr tilt, and keeping the soil in place could be problematic. I used a mixture of sphag. moss, PM and ordinary garden soil for this one.

Of course, I can't speak for US pots. If they are made from a different kinda plastic, then this use may not be possible. Why don't one of you give it a go & let us know?

PPots 001.JPG 

This is the filled pot in context. All I need to do next time is cut out that window near the bottom as suggested by Martin.

PPots 002 - Copy.JPG 

The empty pots are air-layers-in-waiting.

PPots 004.JPG 

PPots 003.JPG 

Till next time fellow-figgers.

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Posted Reply with quote  #98 
More for Rafed to drool over. Some of my loquats have bitten the dust, but others seem to be coming along nicely. Looking forward to some good ripe samples after a long absence.

loquats01.JPG 

loquats02.JPG 

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Posted Reply with quote  #99 
Oh yeah, sorry - shoudda warned ya all - OT.
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Posted Reply with quote  #100 
Just checked the air layers on my Bay Leaf tree & Early Trans Gage plum (that looks like a cherry) tree. Neither have taken. Zero. Zip. Nada. Zilch. Kaputnik. Damn. :-(.

Oh well. it was always gonna be a long shot. At least the Italian Purple is well under way, so still have great hopes for one massive & 3 modest trees out of this 'little' beauty.
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