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Encanto Farms Nursery > Topics > Air layers my way ATTN Harvey
 
 


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WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #1 
I was trying to describe to Harvey how I did the airlayers but I am not the wordsmith JTP, FMD or JD are.  Not saying my way is any better than anyone's,  it is just the way I do it.   The way Frank (FMD) does it is very clever and very very fast, not sure if he has posted it.  But for doing a lot of airlayers and not having to buy much of anything I like my way.  

T-storms just popped up and got chased in so figured I would post this now.  Lets see if I can get it posted before the power goes out:)  That 78 degrees in the middle of the screen is actually my weather station on Wunderground.  

!cid_20140815_101547.jpg 

You can use any size drill bit you want I like the 7/16

!cid_20140815_093602.jpg 

You then cut a slit in the cap just to the middle.  You can use scissors for this.

!cid_20140815_093717.jpg  !cid_20140815_094007.jpg 

Cut the bottom off the bottle.  After this you can cut the bottle any height you want as sometimes you need a short container.  Can use scissors for this also.

!cid_20140815_093755.jpg

You then cut a slit in the bottle, again only half way through, top to bottom.  Yes I took a picture with the blade running probably not a smart choice.  This is the tough one as the lip and neck of the bottle you cant use scissors to cut.  They are butter to the bandsaw but I am sure you could do it another way, just be safe. 



  !cid_20140815_093821.jpg 



The bottle now looks like this.  The reason I use water bottles, specifically eco friendly thinner bottles is because if you use say a 16 oz coke bottle spreading it apart to get it around the branch or stem is much more difficult.



!cid_20140815_094231.jpg



Some use clothes pins to anchor the bottom of the air layer but I prefer velcro.  You can see the cap has been slipped over the stem.  I used a potted fig a Pan E Vino dark sucker for the demonstration as it was just easier and it had a long stem that needed done anyway.  It was easier to see without all the leaves in the bushes getting in the way.


  !cid_20140815_094152.jpg 

Next the bottle is slipped over. 

!cid_20140815_094246.jpg 

And the cap screws back on.  It holds very well.  Larger caps to say a coke bottle dont hold as well once a slit is cut in them...not sure why.


!cid_20140815_094307.jpg 

I use to use electrical tape around the bottle but my good friend Hershell gave me a roll of aluminum tape..it works so much better and even grabs a wet bottle.  I fold the tape over the top rim 1/2" or so.  and the rest seals the slit.

!cid_20140815_094424.jpg 

Fill with soil

!cid_20140815_094544.jpg 

and foil and you are done.

!cid_20140815_094633.jpg 



Some use bottles split in half completely but I find they are slow to apply and feels like you need 3 hands.  Only slitting one side of the bottle keeps it together and the halves lined up.


I timed how long it takes to turn the bottle in to the al container..18 seconds not rushing so it is quick.  I can put the air layer on the bush in 2-3 minutes I suppose, never timed it.

The top of the al is left open and mother nature generally keeps them watered.  Because we have high humidity here in Florida every day and a heavy dew each morning I find I only have to water them if we get no rain in 4 or 5 days.  The morning dew actually supplies a lot of the water as it rolls down the leaves and stems right in to the cup.  In a less humid climate I would seal the top or do this.....which is just two bottles reversed.

!cid_20140815_110708.jpg 


Hope someone finds it useful. 
waynea

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Posted Reply with quote  #2 
Nice job, and inexpensive, should be very light, I'll give it a try. Thanks.
Gina

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Posted Reply with quote  #3 
Thanks very much. That aluminum tape is a great idea.

Do you girdle the branch, cut notches, abrade it, or ?

If you don't have the right power tools, you can cut right through the threaded tops of thin bottles with pruning sheers, then use scissors for the thinner parts. Same with the caps - even forming the hole in the top without a drill, though it's not as neat, nor attractive.


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Rewton

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Posted Reply with quote  #4 
Thanks for posting this - very useful.  Where do you get the velcro strips?  A fabric store?
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WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #5 
Gina,

Thank you for the reminder.....I forgot to mention....I make sure to cover two nodes.  I do not wound, scrape, girdle or use hormones on the figs.  For other plants the wounding helps.  The key I think is to just make sure it stays moist, not soggy but moist.  With this way I just use my normal mix and the excess water drains out so it stays moist but not saturated.  The other thing I should have mentioned is I think it is crucial the air layer is immobilized.   New roots and a airlayer shifting in the wind is bad because it will snap the roots off and because that wiggle will create a airspace between the stem and the mix, neither will help.  I use twine and bamboo stakes..mostly because I have a lot of bamboo:)

It is just a normal 5-1-1-1 mix in the bottle.  
WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rewton
Thanks for posting this - very useful.  Where do you get the velcro strips?  A fabric store?



Steve,

This http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0069FJR2M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1  probably could get it even cheaper on Ebay.  The last roll I had was white which I prefer but black is fine, I had worried it would draw the sun and be too hot on the berry stems but that proved to not be the case.

I then cut them in half width wise as there is no use to having them the full 3/4" wide but no reason to cut them if you don't want to.  I use those to tie up everything...the grapes, the blackberries the raspberries and tie the step over figs to the supports.  Just so much faster than twine and reusable.  Plus if you miss a twine on the grapes the twine can girdle the stem...the velcro will just pull loose.  On the grapes I do use it the full 3/4" wide as there is a lot more weight to support. 
FiggyFrank

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Posted Reply with quote  #7 
Great ideas, Wills.  I'll have to try this on my next air layer.
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Gina

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Posted Reply with quote  #8 

I got a roll of Velcro for the garden from Amazon. It's pale green in color.  Thinner than the regular stuff and not as sturdy. it might hold up better to the sun however. Not sure how costs compare.


Here ya go. There are several different lengths, and the price seems to vary a lot.

http://www.amazon.com/Velcro-Plant-2-Inches-Green-90648/dp/B005755YSQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1408119511&sr=8-1&keywords=velcro+garden


$10.29, 75 ft X 1/2 inch.
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rcantor

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Posted Reply with quote  #9 
This is very similar to what I do except I use the bottom.  I cut the top of the water bottle off just before it starts to narrow and I use the bottom 2/3rds or so.  I cut down one side of the cylinder to the bottom then I continue that cut to the center of the bottom.  Then I cut a small hole in the bottom at the center for the branch to fit through.  I spread it and let it close around the branch just like you.  I then use clear packing tape (because I have it and it's cheap  :- ) around the branch and spiral up on to the bottle to hold it closed and in place on the branch.  I fill with promix HP BX (+/- mycorrizae - because it's what I have) and leave the top open as you do.  I use maple sticks to keep my airlayer and branch still because I'm high class (or a sap?).  And also because my neighbor has a huge maple tree and so I have dozens of saplings I let grow until I need the wood or don't need the shade to harden off any more cuttings   :)   I make all my cuts with a scissor or a razor blade.  Sometimes I use a dremel for holes - the bottom center hole or side holes if it's rainy season.

[20140815_114104] 


And I save the top for use as a humidity dome if ever needed.

[20140815_114338] 


Or, if I run out of water bottles I use a cup.

[20140815_111029] 
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WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #10 
Pretty similar.   I tried the cups but just like the bottles better because they are taller and thinner, covers more nodes.  Your way definitely solves the tough lip and neck cutting though if you don't have tools.  I am going to try Ginas suggestion to cut the lip and neck plastic, she may have better sharper garden clippers than I do though.  
HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #11 
Thanks, Wills.  My question in your "fig abuse" thread was mostly centered around if you has girdled the branch being airlayered but you've already answered that above for Gina.  I hadn't tried it without doing so but will give it a try.

Much of my new growth this year is still quite green, especially for some varieties.  In other words, it's not lignified yet (Neil is a smart guy and regularly uses this big word, LOL).  Have you airlayered green (non-lignified) branches with success using this method?

I did quite a few airlayers earlier this year and just used sphagnum long-fiber moss and held it in place with aluminum foil and masking tape.  I did girdle the branch, scrapped of the cambium layer, and used IBA rooting hormone.  The aluminum foil rips easily, though, and is somewhat difficult to apply evenly spaced around the branch.  I suggest trying masking tape to see how it works for you in place of velcro.  I've used it for bark grafting chestnuts and works very well, lasting a few months before breaking down.  And it's very cheap.  (Note: for my chestnut bark grafts most of the tape gets covered with latex grafting sealer as well.)

Are you able to pull back that aluminum tape to check progress of root formation?

Thanks again!
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WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarveyC
Thanks, Wills.  My question in your "fig abuse" thread was mostly centered around if you has girdled the branch being airlayered but you've already answered that above for Gina.  I hadn't tried it without doing so but will give it a try.

Much of my new growth this year is still quite green, especially for some varieties.  In other words, it's not lignified yet (Neil is a smart guy and regularly uses this big word, LOL).  Have you airlayered green (non-lignified) branches with success using this method?

I did quite a few airlayers earlier this year and just used sphagnum long-fiber moss and held it in place with aluminum foil and masking tape.  I did girdle the branch, scrapped of the cambium layer, and used IBA rooting hormone.  The aluminum foil rips easily, though, and is somewhat difficult to apply evenly spaced around the branch.  I suggest trying masking tape to see how it works for you in place of velcro.  I've used it for bark grafting chestnuts and works very well, lasting a few months before breaking down.  And it's very cheap.  (Note: for my chestnut bark grafts most of the tape gets covered with latex grafting sealer as well.)

Are you able to pull back that aluminum tape to check progress of root formation?

Thanks again!


Harvey,


As long as the growth has changed from green and succulent to green and woody the al will work, just may take a extra week or two. 

The aluminum tape is just over the slit to seal it.  The tape is waterproof and strong.  The rest of the bottle is just covered by regular aluminum foil.  Like I said in one of the threads I never peel the foil back and check.  When the bottle gets full of roots you can actually see them at the surface of the al.  I will have to take a picture of it.


Yeah that Neil.......just because he is a DR. he has an attitude:)  Yes this is payback for him constantly putting that extra I in my name even though he knows better.  Btw did he tell you he deliberately broke his wifes leg?  Vicious vicious guy that Neil.  
HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #13 
Her leg too?  I thought the hip was bad enough.  He says it comes with the territory of bike riding but that seems pretty heartless so I suspect it came about when she demanded a new kitchen instead of a big greenhouse. :)
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james

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Posted Reply with quote  #14 
There are a couple of points that Wills touched on that bear emphasis.

1. Wounding is optional, but try to cover multiple nodes with the layer. If you are doing a layer late in the season in an area where it might get caught by frost, do not wound the limb.
2. Immobilize the layer. If the layer twists after roots form, you will be starting over (almost).
3. Moisture control is crucial. If you live in an area with low humidity, wrap in plastic and seal the ends. This also helps immobilize the layer.

Attached Images
jpeg DSC02032(2).jpg (64.23 KB, 13 views)


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WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #15 
Harvey,

Ok.....here is the picture.  Once the cup is pretty full the roots are visible without moving the foil.  Perhaps this is also a high humidity thing and with lower humidity they would stay deeper? No idea.  Sometimes you see the roots poking straight up...but it is raining and wasn't going to search for one of those:)   This is on a Niagara Black.  You can see the roots on the surface in 3 or 4 different spots.  I would not even take the foil off, just cut it as I know the pot is full of roots or they would not be forced to the surface.  

!cid_20140815_132820.jpg 
WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarveyC
Her leg too?  I thought the hip was bad enough.  He says it comes with the territory of bike riding but that seems pretty heartless so I suspect it came about when she demanded a new kitchen instead of a big greenhouse. :)


Harvey, you are right......Neil is basically a psychopath we should probably alert the authorities.  But his wife is a dentist, and I hate dentists so I have not turned him in, yet.
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Posted Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by james
There are a couple of points that Wills touched on that bear emphasis. 1. Wounding is optional, but try to cover multiple nodes with the layer. If you are doing a layer late in the season in an area where it might get caught by frost, do not wound the limb. 2. Immobilize the layer. If the layer twists after roots form, you will be starting over (almost). 3. Moisture control is crucial. If you live in an area with low humidity, wrap in plastic and seal the ends. This also helps immobilize the layer.


Yep that is an example of what my friend Aaron does not understand.  It is hard to speak in absolutes and say just do this.  Just because something works well in my locale does not mean it will in yours.  Conditions vary and so do techniques.  Up north people would be at the end of air layers but here prime time was just a month ago, at least that is when I consider it best.  Now some items are absolute...like immobilizing, do you have to do it?  No.  But in most situations it is the best route and is cheap insurance.  
rcantor

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Posted Reply with quote  #18 
The only thing you do that I don't is cover the plastic bottle.  I listen carefully to my plants and it makes them very unhappy when you put on the outer layer.  They always say, "curses, foiled again."
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FMD

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Posted Reply with quote  #19 
Wills, nice tutorial. I agree that anchoring the AL is very important, especially in my neck of the woods, where the angry birds live.

Here's my version of the two minute air-layering technique when doing multiple branches that I posted a while back.

http://figs4funforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/the-2-minute-air-layer-pictorial-5996173?highlight=5+minute+air+layer&pid=1275427676#post1275427676
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WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcantor
The only thing you do that I don't is cover the plastic bottle.  I listen carefully to my plants and it makes them very unhappy when you put on the outer layer.  They always say, "curses, foiled again."


Boo........that was horrible.   I have never tried it without the foil, I suppose under the canopy it would not be needed.
WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #21 
Frank,

Hmm that was not the al technique of yours I meant, I was talking the store bought screw on lid one.  
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Posted Reply with quote  #22 
 Gives me ideas for improvements on what I do. I do cut the neck off with a blade and did slice myself on the 1st airlayer of the year. within couple days I bought some rooter pots but still use some bottles. One note on the foil which I always use be careful on recycling it. We had some I think was from baked sweet potatoes I recycled being the green and cheap guy I am, well apparently  the neighbors dog has a sweet potato tooth.
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FMD

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Posted Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillsC
Frank,

Hmm that was not the al technique of yours I meant, I was talking the store bought screw on lid one.  


Oh yeah, that one was the 3 minute air layer tutorial. :)
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Otmani007

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Posted Reply with quote  #24 
Excellent tutorials. To all those who have contributed to this thread, thank you for taking the time to make these tutorials and share them.
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Posted Reply with quote  #25 
Wills, this put me in the mood to start your Vasilika Sika airlayer tomorrow.  I even scored an empty bottle at work this afternoon - we typically don't buy drinks in them for use at home.  Anyway, have you ever compared side by side on the same tree an air layer where the cambium layer was wounded or girdled vs. one where the cambium was untouched?  I don't doubt that not wounding works but I wonder if wounding/girdling speeds up the process or enhances root development.
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WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #26 
Steve,

I think wounding does in fact speed up the time it takes for roots to form but not by enough to really matter or make it worth the risk.  I have tried wounding, scraping, partial girdle and full girdle.  On the hardened but not yet lignified green wood you can get what happened to Harvey and it snaps off. Also have to worry about rot.  You would have to try it yourself but for me the partial girdle seemed the fastest but the difference in time between partial girdle and not doing anything to the branch was like a week?   I'm curious what other people have noticed.  
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Posted Reply with quote  #27 
I remember Martin (Diesler) saying he did no wounding at all to the stems.
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Posted Reply with quote  #28 
I have tried both side by side... usually because I got lazy or it started getting dark. I did not see a definite pattern. Most times there wasn't enough of a difference. Every once in a while a non wounded limb would beat a wounded limb. I did not keep notes to identify what factors was important. I have notice sphagnum moss layers tend to root faster. Even still, I prefer using my normal growing mix for other reasons. In 2007 I had 6 air layers on a Celeste tree in Houston when we got some freezing weather. The limbs were pretty equal in length and caliper, as well as the same height on the tree. Three were wounded, the not. All the wounded limbs died in dramatic fashion to the girdle. There was no other cold damage on the tree. In theory, girdling the limbs should not have made a difference.
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Posted Reply with quote  #29 
Good information James, I use growing mix for the simple reason that re-potting or the up-potting is safer for roots with hardly any damage or disturbance.
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Posted Reply with quote  #30 
Well, well, well, I am busy for a day and certain people know it and take advantage of that fact to roast me on a thread. I usually avoid WillIs' threads like the plague, for he is soulless, and the soulless carry plague, but today I had a little time to waste and thought I'd get my fill of inane chatter while I spent a few quiet moments perched on the throne. My poor wife, only recently removed from the full body cast I had her placed in after her tragic cycling accident in mid April, burst into tears when she saw how I was being mistreated here. It may be another week before she feels able to come out of the dungeon...er, bedroom again and face this cruel world. I'll be at her side when she does.

So, Mr. Machine Shop, I set a Vasilika Sika (Herman) air layer for you a couple of weeks ago. I see now that you are two timing me. Perhaps I'll sell it on the internets for a couple thousand bucks and fling some of that cash in your direction for the air layers you have promised to deliver to me. The homemade blackberry and raspberry jam is off the ledger though. Ah, what could have been for you but for a few careless accusations on a thread you thought I'd never read.

I'll take care of Harvey in person, as he's only a 2.5 hour drive from my home; down and back in one day with a truck bed full of trees I'm going to drag out of his orchard.

Never mess with Dr. Mean (my patients actually call me that - don't like them much either!).
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WillsC

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Posted Reply with quote  #31 
Nelly,

It is about time you saw the thread:)  

FYI I needed two Vasilika Sika, one for me and one for a trade with Hershell.  

He's coming for you Harvey...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Posturedoc
Well, well, well, I am busy for a day and certain people know it and take advantage of that fact to roast me on a thread. I usually avoid WillIs' threads like the plague, for he is soulless, and the soulless carry plague, but today I had a little time to waste and thought I'd get my fill of inane chatter while I spent a few quiet moments perched on the throne. My poor wife, only recently removed from the full body cast I had her placed in after her tragic cycling accident in mid April, burst into tears when she saw how I was being mistreated here. It may be another week before she feels able to come out of the dungeon...er, bedroom again and face this cruel world. I'll be at her side when she does.

So, Mr. Machine Shop, I set a Vasilika Sika (Herman) air layer for you a couple of weeks ago. I see now that you are two timing me. Perhaps I'll sell it on the internets for a couple thousand bucks and fling some of that cash in your direction for the air layers you have promised to deliver to me. The homemade blackberry and raspberry jam is off the ledger though. Ah, what could have been for you but for a few careless accusations on a thread you thought I'd never read.

I'll take care of Harvey in person, as he's only a 2.5 hour drive from my home; down and back in one day with a truck bed full of trees I'm going to drag out of his orchard.

Never mess with Dr. Mean (my patients actually call me that - don't like them much either!).
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Posted Reply with quote  #32 
Meandoc (so much easier to tipe) - you need to post more, lol.
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Posted Reply with quote  #33 
I second that Gina and the nickname. Post more meandoc.
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Posted Reply with quote  #34 
I think I'll be ok with out that trade. I just canceled all of my Dr. appointments and plan to see a vet instead. I don't want to take a chance and get sent to see meandoc.
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Posted Reply with quote  #35 
Neil,

It could be worse. My brother is an ER doc. My nephews (his sons) refer to him as a "cheesy reassurer".
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Posted Reply with quote  #36 
Ah, Gina and JD, you clearly are people with refined taste and uncommon intelligence compared to some of the folks hereabouts with partially or fully lignified gray matter. My ego (that's right, we are separate beasts) thanks you for the feeding. It was nearly starved by the time it made it through the first 31 posts in this thread. We shall attempt to post more often.

Hershell, from all I've read, you are generous beyond measure (though I question your choice of a couple forum friends). You are an innocent in Wills' nefarious schemes, likely do not even know the acid fingered Harvey and are safe from any fig-related vengeance I might take on them. May your future Vasilika Sika grow unmolested and be fruitful. If I may offer some advice, veterinarians are fine doctors, but not suited to treat an upstanding member of the species homo sapiens like yourself. Stick with MDs, DCs, DDSs and the like and leave to the DVMs the dogs of the F4F membership (you know who you are).
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Posted Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by james
Neil, It could be worse. My brother is an ER doc. My nephews (his sons) refer to him as a "cheesy reassurer".


James,

Have they visited him in the ER as patients? He is either much, much nicer than I or his sons much better behaved than mine. I've got two, 21 and 17, and I can assure you that were I an ER doc and they had the misfortune of being rolled into my ER, I would tell them the scrape on their knee would soon be infested with burrowing worms and the bump on their head would need to be surgically removed along with 1/4 of their skull. Such small untruths might possibly cancel .001% of the horrors they have inflicted on me and Mrs. Mean in their lifetimes.
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Neil
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james

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Posted Reply with quote  #38 
Lol. He has four sons and five daughters. There is always somebody (sometimes me) calling with a problem. My brother's style is more "if you are not in immediate danger, let's see what happens over the next few days."
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2016 Wish List:  Dārk Pōrtuguese, Grānthāms Royāl, Lātarolla, Negrettā, Nōire de Bārbentāne, Rockāway Green, Viōlet Sepōr, Viōlette Dāuphine.  Iranian figs are always welcome.
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Posted Reply with quote  #39 
Ok I went to see my vet friend and he said he wouldn't see me again. Apparently he had been bit before, I really didn't mean to. But I guess I do want the trade.
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gorgi

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Posted Reply with quote  #40 
That (top illustration) looks too much exotic (out of way) for me.
The way I doit, is either using:
(a) a water cup (first drill an ~ 1/2" hole at the bottom, then use a plain scissors to cut/fit cup around twig).
(b) a rooter-pot (no tools required).
Both require to be secured with the twig being air-layered.
Top cover is not essential, add some SM at the top and water more frequently.
I girdle only old wood.

@Harvey - this one (Kesariani/rooter-pot) is for you (girded)...DSC04626.JPG 

@pit  - those two (plain cups) were are all yours from the start ...
(note roots on one of them - started 7/28/14, not girdled)

P.S. Do NOT ever, ever, hold any water/soda bottle cap in the hand while drilling a hole.
I did so, a while back, not for rooting but for venting a dome.
Ended up with a 1/4 inch (nasty) bit going through my left/next-to-thumb lower 1/3 muscle finger tissue.
I can still see the entry/exit hole scars. Luckily all the rest is fine with that finger. No bone tendon damage done.

DSC04627.JPG 
DSC04628.JPG

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Posted Reply with quote  #41 
Gorgi,

Nice pictures:)  You are right that those bits can get you especially spade bits.  In this case I would screw them on the bottle, hold the bottle and push it up into the bit....it is a drill press.  It does keep my fingers far away from the spinning parts.  How I do the slits in the caps and the slit in the bottle would probably make Bob Villa cringe but.......so far still have all my fingers and toes and way more brain cells than that bone bender Nells.
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Posted Reply with quote  #42 
Bet you can't count all those brain cells of yours past 21, Mr. 80's TV Celeb.
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Neil
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