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Black Ischia Fig,and Observations!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by twobrothersgarden
I have a Blue Ischia from Hirts as well. I received mine on November 24 2012 and its was smaller then yours, but its grown to 2 feet fast. I don't know exactly why Hirts Garden named it Blue Ischia. The Blue Ischia Hirts sell seem to be tissue cultures, meaning the FM virus should have been eliminated. Hence the name change. But that's just a guess.

As been mentioned before on forum tissue culture does not eliminate FMV and was told to me also by a place that sells tissue culture kits and yet another that sells tissue culture plants.
Also have the Hirts Blue Ischia and indication so far last season point that its not a Black Ischia .

Here's a photo of a Black Ischia I grafted onto a Janice Seedless on January 24th (plant was in my propagation room, not getting enough light, until about a week ago):



For comparison (?), here is a Black Madeira I grafted onto a Brown Turkey on January 13th:



I also have a couple of rooted cuttings of Black Ischia and they are doing "okay" (smaller than grafted scion).

Nice grafts.

Harvey, what is the source of your BI? The cuttings I purchased and started last year are most likely some strain of VdB.

Some were from Dick Watts and some were from a CRFG exchange with source being from Prusch Park in San Jose.  What was the source of your cuttings last year?

Harvey, man you got the gift of grafting! Great job! One day, I will be grafting like that!

Thanks, Dennis, but I don't think it's very hard at all with good tools/supplies.  Since I have found some bark layers to be a bit confusing-looking, I did buy a magnifying headset recently so I can see a better clearer, but that's more to satisfy my curiosity.

Thanks, Dennis, but I don't think it's very hard at all with good tools/supplies.  Since I have found some bark layers to be a bit confusing-looking, I did buy a magnifying headset recently so I can see a better clearer, but that's more to satisfy my curiosity.

I just potted up this BI cutting started on 2/8 (34 days ago), doing okay, I think

Thanks for clarifying Martin. I figured they tissue cultured it to try and get rid of the virus, and they wouldn't want this fig to be associated with Black Ischia. However, like I said, it was only a guess. Martin has yours fruited yet?

Good looking grafts there Harvey. Must be nice to be able to graft already. We're almost there though.

I have several varieties of scion at the ready for my upcoming grafting season. Not yet sure just what I'm going to have in the way of root stock yet. I may have to hit Lowes or Tractor Supply again this year to pick up a couple more new root stocks.

Thanks, Bill.  It's still a little bit early to graft outside (some figs showing but no leaves yet).  Some of these were grafted in my shop where I had them next to my propagation table with a grow light and others were grafted in my greenhouse (only slightly heated but gets to 90F pretty early due to sun intensity).  I wanted to get these going early so that just maybe I can get them to give me some fruit this year.  Not likely, but I can wish!

Ischia is an island near Naples. If I recall from reading about BI, when it was originally collected, there was some sort of labeling confusion with other cuttings.

reading something about 3 different vaieties were collected. Black, White and Green. they were named after the color and the island.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gina
Ischia is an island near Naples. If I recall from reading about BI, when it was originally collected, there was some sort of labeling confusion with other cuttings.






Noss and Gina this was conveyed to me by Herman back in 2009 .



Dieseler:Black Ischia Name can't be found in Italy,because Phillip Miller,An English nursery man,imported Four cultivars from around Napoly,and Island of Malta. << Edit: Herman meant Island of Ischia as he corrected that later in thread.>>

As he was making his way back to England He lost The Tags,so,when they fruited He Named them new names according to color and where it found the trees(island of Malta).
All Ischias,Black green,brown and white,are names given by Miller,and not the original names the figs will be called in Italy.
So that is why ,is hard to find them now.

They are thre but under their normal name.
I think,Black Ischia is mostly Found under the name Black Fig,Or Fico Negro,or Nero.
This is how it should be looked after in My opinion.
Best Regards



I have had some luck with Black Ischia in San Diego, CA. The tree hasn't grown much since I got it about a year ago. It looks like it is setting a good amount of fruit after one year.

I bought the tree from Exotica Nursery in Vista, CA. I don't really know much about figs. It was what the owner recommended when I asked for the best tasting fig he grew.

I don't know how old the tree is but it looks pretty mature for a nursery tree.






i got one cutting from UCD this yr. made two cutting out of it. both rooted the terminal bud on put on 4 leave, and that's it. it still hasn't done much since those 4 leaves came out. same height.. same 4 leaves. the bottom cut put on purple "branch" and put on 4 leaves with some purple vein.. and it's still stuck there too. i know they are not dead.. and leaves are not dropping.. but no other progress.

Econo:I doubt you got,Ischia Black,in the pixies.
Your tree looks like Vista Mission, sold to Jon in San Diego which turned out to be identical to Violette de Bordeaux.
By all accounts ,Violette de Bordeaux is an excellent fig,but it is not Identical to ,Ischia Black or Mission Black.
If you look at my original pix in top, you will see that the leaves on UCD Ischia are not shiny but Matte,without much shiness,and the shape of leaves are not the same.
If you get a Violette de Bordeaux pix and compare your tree with it you will find out,it is much more similar.
This is only my opinion and you do not have to take it as a fact ,but compare for yourself and get your own conclusion.

Quote:
Your tree looks like Vista Mission, sold to Jon in San Diego which turned out to be identical to Violette de Bordeaux.



The cuttings I purchased and rooted from Jon last year as Black Ischia are also doubtfully the real Black Ischia and more likely a version of VdB. He said he got it from a fig grower who called it 'black Ishii' or something like that.

In fact, the leaves on mine look just like the ones pictured just above (post 43). LOL, they could be the same clone - nice, but not the real thing. Very disappointing.

Herman,

That is good to know. I'll compare it to Violette de Bordeaux when the fruit matures. I'll try to post some pics for confirmation.

I don't think that they intentionally change the names at Exotica. If you have ever been there it is very disorganized. Labeling is done by writing on the side of a pot. Sometimes the pots are reused and the old variety is not erased. All of the fruit trees I have bought there do very well and produce great tasting fruit.

Thanks,
Tom

H2, I don't disagree with your comment about the photo appearing to be VdB but don't believe we have enough evidence from NCGR testing of 15 markers to say VdB and Vista are identical.  I just don't like seeing this perpetuated as fact when we have some doubts about it.  Jon previously wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by pitangadiego
Bob,

That begins to answer my questions about genetic investigation of different cultivars. It has always seemed to me that the % of DNA sampled was incredibly small and wondered how they determine which few alleles that they will use.

We see from this that Beer's Black, Violette de Bordeaux and Vista are the "same". But in you actual experience Vista is superior to any of  the VdB variants that I have.

We see that Orphan, 278-128 and Deanna are the "same" but when tasted at USDA/UC Davis WEO orchard, Orphan stands apart.

There is NO way you will mistake Encanto Brown Turkey for Archipel - not even close, but they show as the "same".

On the other hand, Brunswick, Red Italian and Rattlesnake Island are very similar and the DNA agrees.

Harvey:I agree that between Vista and Violette could be some difference but it is minor,and ,this last Winter ,it became obvious of a distinct difference.
Violette from Edible landsc.,is hardier than Vista. In my climate that is what it counts.
The same age trees ,in,next to each other and Vista died to ground while Violette has one trunk alive to top,and another ,half way up alive.
So Violette   is more cold hardy.
The fruits were very similar last Summer.

Based on the 15 SSR (simple sequence repeat, aka microsatellite) loci they use, the scientists at NCGR in the 2010 Genetica publication do not say that cultivars like VdB and Vista are identical. They call them synonymous. They recognize that their analyses do not prove identity. They picked 15 markers that type (or assort) independently of one another. You can understand that 2 markers near each other on the same chromosome would give you the same information relative to differences and allele frequencies. The 15 SSR loci they use for typing in all likelihood capture all 13 fig chromosomes although I see no direct indication of that. That means that at least 2 pair of markers are on the same chromosome but far enough apart that a high enough rate of crossing over events in those chromosomes cause the markers appear to assort independently. This method of typing is an extremely powerful way to capture major genetic differences as chromosomes evolved different variants which were dispersed when the wasps crossed different fig trees and the seeds generated novel trees. When you look at the detailed typing, what you see is that some loci have a number of versions, called alleles, that are commonly used while others have a couple of common alleles and some very rare ones. The details for those geekish enough to be interested are here:
http://sun.ars-grin.gov/~dbmuqs/cgi-bin/export.pl?action=mrkspread&format=html&cropno=192

So, what could drive the differences between synonymous cultivars that people observe? A number of things occur to me. A highly likely possibility is that the mix of FMD (fig mosaic disease) viruses differs between 2 trees. Their impact on every aspect of the tree from ability to tolerate cold weather to fruit quality is poorly understood. But, when examined, FMD infections negatively impact figs. There are other diseases that attack figs that could result in observed differences. For instance, could the taste difference Jon experienced between Orphan, 278-128 & Deanna be that 278-128 & Deanna were a distance apart from the Orphan tree and both had rust infections that year & Orphan did not? Simple misnaming is always a possibility unfortunately. I have only been playing with figs a couple of years, but I have found it really difficult to trace histories of the cuttings I get. Another possibility is that culturing differences could account for variations people observe. Amount of soil nutrition, water & sun exposure could all drive observed differences between 2 identical trees. Another possibility is something called epigenetic effects. During propagation of higher organisms, a section of a chromosome can get "turned off" resulting in the genes in that area not being expressed. If the genes in that area of the 2 sister chromosomes are identical, then you simply lower the expression level of those genes which can cause observed differences. If there are gene(s) in that area of the 2 sister chromosomes are different and one set is silenced, then there is a distinct possibility of an observable difference or differences.

A big benefit of the genetic tests is that it should allow fig lovers to reduce some of the cultivar confusion out there. Some people get unknowns and call them that. Others get them and apply a new name to what is a common fig for a lot of reasons. The level of discrimination afforded by SSRs allow you to say how closely related 2 different fig cultivars are and to group different cultivars into families. The information in the Genetica paper allows me to try to collect figs from different families and ones that help define the range of differences. It also allows me to try to get similar versions of the highest rated figs to try side-by-side. For instance, I want to collect Sucrette, Black Madeira & Gazir for the fun of it (2/3s of the way there). While I do pay attention to differences people note between synonymous cultivars, I decided to not collect them. So, based on Jon's opinion that his Vista performs better for him than his VdB, I got a Vista from him last year and will not get a VdB. No doubt, many will think I am missing out. But that is some of the fun of it.

Good luck with your figs!

There was some doubt on this forum about an Ischia Black fig tree I bought from Exotica. A member claimed that it was probably Violette De Bordeaux.

Here is my tree five years later about 8' x 8'  in size. Is it Ischia Black, Violette De Bordeaux, or something else?

Thanks,
Tom



IMG_0106.JPG  IMG_0108.JPG  IMG_0109.JPG  IMG_0113.JPG 


This is not Black Ichia 100%. Looks like Vd.Bx

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