Can a HUGE cutting be rooted ?

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lolita1234

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Posts: 199

Posted 1457017679 · Edited

Reply with quote #1

Introduction :
I am back to business with good intention . YES and ALWAYS ...
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mnedelcu

Registered:1239093283
Posts: 571

Posted 1457024026	Reply with quote #2

Well...i don't know about all this stuff...but,regarding the title:yes,you can root a big/huge cutting,my biggest one was 2.7inches diam.

lolita1234

Registered:1443208094
Posts: 199

Posted 1457027304 · Edited

Reply with quote #3

Thank you, mnedelcu

My next question : Can you air layer a cutting ?

Some of you might already saw some of my pictures before, but please tell me what do you think that air laying a cutting is possible or impossible
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cyberfarmer

Registered:1293483474
Posts: 544

Posted 1457044298	Reply with quote #4

Quote: Originally Posted by lolita1234 Thank you, mnedelcu My next question : Can you air layer a cutting ? Some of you might already see some of my pictures before, but please tell me what do you think that air laying a cutting is possible or impossible An air layer is made by causing roots to grow on a living branch (still attached to the tree until it grows roots). A cutting is just a piece of a branch. In the right conditions, it will root, but that is not an air layer. If you attach it to a living branch of a tree, it may attach itself and grow, but that is a graft - not an air layer. __________________ Paul the Fig Tree Destroyer in Fallbrook, CA (Zone 10A )

pitangadiego

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Posts: 5,447

Posted 1457045335	Reply with quote #5

The "science" behind air-layering is that you are using the power of photosynthesis to produce new roots. Since a cutting does not have leaves, there is no photosynthesis, so no air-layer. All you are doing is rooting a cutting in the middle rather than at the bottom end. __________________ Encanto Farms Nursery http://encantofarms.com http://figs4fun.com http://webebananas.com "pitangadiego" everywhere

waynea

Registered:1362316304
Posts: 1,886

Posted 1457053842	Reply with quote #6

Jon and Paul are correct by definition of "air layering" , the key word in the definition is a "branch" of a plant(tree) and a cutting is not a part of any definition, but I know what you are trying to explain, pretty darn neat.

lolita1234

Registered:1443208094
Posts: 199

Posted 1457058381 · Edited

Reply with quote #7

Thank you cyberfarmer, pitangadiego and waynea for your input .

My third question :
Can a huge (or a small size with 4,5,6 nods) cutting be rooted and air layered at the same time ?

Huge : trunk about 2 - 3" diameter, 5' or more in height
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recomer20

Registered:1378013757
Posts: 402

Posted 1457064930	Reply with quote #8

It has been suggested that a huge limb or trunk can be buried sideways creating roots (and budding) at multiple nodes. It could then be chopped up into into multiple plants. I would guess the same thing could be accomplished by wrapping multiple nodes with medium (like an airlayer). As others pointed out, the term "airlayer" is usually reserved for rooting a section (branch, etc) of while the section is still attached to the host tree. __________________ Rick C. Birmingham, AL z7b --- INGROUND: S.C.Lemon ("Dr.Welch"), LSUpurple, Celeste (Std) POTTED 3rd Yr: Alma, Atreano, BattGreen, GrnGreek, HardyChicago, ItalianBlack (Becnel), LSUGold?, MBvs, Sal's EL, Southern BT?, St.Jean, Jackie'sUnk POTTED 2nd Yr: SunbirdUnkJP, BourjNoire, JHAdriatic, ValleNegra ROOTING: RdB, ScottsBlk, BlkGreek-MN,Preto

starch

Registered:1444492067
Posts: 123

Posted 1457065311	Reply with quote #9

If you do have a large cutting (which from experience does take a lot longer to root. I have a Sal's Gene that is about 1" in diameter that did root successfully but it took months) with lots of nodes, there might be another option also: Take a bud off the bottom of the cutting and graft it onto another fig tree you have via chip budding. For any cutting that I deem 'important', something that I really want to have, I will take one or two buds off (depending on the number of nodes on the original cutting) and chip bud it onto one of my mature trees. That way if the rooting fails or takes forever to root, I have a backup of that cultivar growing on a mature tree. I have become very proficient at chip budding and my take rate is very high. The downside is that you turned a mature fig into a frankenfig, but I don't mind. __________________ Location: USDA Zone 9b / Sunset 13. Chandler, AZ Currently producing fruit and scions: Violette de Bordeaux, Panache, Black Mission, Black Jack, Smith, Col de Dame Gris, Marseilles Black VS, Red Lebanese (Bekaa) Small Trees / Currently rooting: lots Wish List: Ponte Tresa, Italian 258, Genovese Nero (not Rob's)

lolita1234

Registered:1443208094
Posts: 199

Posted 1457072816 · Edited

Reply with quote #10

How to root a cutting successfully---> I have demonstrated the art of bag rooting in this forum , so I do know the meaning of CUTTING
Regarding air laying , I think I also know the art and meaning of AIR LAYING

Some citrus air layers

Ask questions first and answer later is my style when I start a new topic

Rooting and air laying a cutting at the same time sounds weird to people, because it is something new , not written in any book before . But nothing is impossible .
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smatthew

Registered:1423266323
Posts: 180

Posted 1457076279	Reply with quote #11

Quote: Originally Posted by lolita1234 Thank you, mnedelcu My next question : Can you air layer a cutting ? Some of you might already saw some of my pictures before, but please tell me what do you think that air laying a cutting is possible or impossible Why are you asking a question that you've already decided the answer to? To brag? __________________ Blackberry & Fig Farmer in East Bay San Francisco - Sunol. Wanted (4): Emalyn's Purple, IT-258, Pastiliere and Milco Caprifig.

lolita1234

Registered:1443208094
Posts: 199

Posted 1457080012 · Edited

Reply with quote #12

Definitely not to brag but to share with people interesting things that just happened . Things that i could not believe my own eyes !

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andreas

Registered:1401724296
Posts: 372

Posted 1457092865	Reply with quote #13

mai if you like to share info to help others learn, please do. i have learned many things in this forum myself. please dont turn it in to a puzzle and answer in caps if you dont like the answer people gave you. the answer to your question has benn given. you can not airlayer a cutting. you can only root it in a second place after you have started rooting in another part of it. but that is still rooting. it is not airlayering __________________ andreas-patras Patra Peloponnisos Greece zone..9a

lolita1234

Registered:1443208094
Posts: 199

Posted 1457100893 · Edited

Reply with quote #14

recomer20 and starch,
I appreciate your input

smatthew and andreas,
This is figs 4 fun, so I am having fun with my fig stories . When I am going to give away my humble ideas , people should give me air to breathe and time to organize my thoughts . When I am digging my phone to upload pictures to photobucket , I started the topic because I am so excited with new discovery

I am slow . Give me time . Be patient .
Of course I appreciate all the answers and maybe I am wrong to call a rooting ball (in the middle of a cutting) an air layer  hehehe , because I could not find any other better word . I agree that my vocabulary in English is limited but at least I manage to express my ideas in a way that people can figure out what I am talking about . If you are in my shoes with Vietnamese , I bet that you will have same problem .

Nowhere I could find roots when I played with a huge branch.
Is it true that a branch with no roots, no leaves ---> a cutting ?
Is a branch freshly cut down (in dormant state) be considered as a live branch or a dead one ?
1) If it is considered as a live one (cutting with some vital sign), then a person who performs an air laying process at a particular area of that branch ----> what is the appropriate word for that part ?
An air layer process ---> not just cover a particular part of the trunk with some medium . An air layer process is more than that
2) Else, no way to do anything except for trying to root the bottom end with misery ...

I ask myself, should I quit playing ???
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lolita1234

Registered:1443208094
Posts: 199

Posted 1457112465 · Edited

Reply with quote #15

This is one of the branches with several ... tin foil balls . They were done 30 minutes after the branch was buried in 5 G pot for rooting

[3343416b-8cdd-4a06-890c-346cdc847545_zpsmao0baab]

[3343416b-8cdd-4a06-890c-346cdc847545_zpsmao0baab]

Les bonbons de figue (French) ----> The fig candies (English) ---> Keo Sung (Vietnamese)

the bottom end in a pot

One of several air layers

[image]

A few days ago, through the window, I saw that the trunk of this branch was sprouting

I walked into the atrium where all the rooting cuttings were located
Below the tin foil ball, another leaf bud

I opened the tin foil ball. Amazing ! This must be a joke ! I could not believe my eyes .

Close up

A HUGE cutting roots at the bottom end and the air layer also roots in winter time !
This is not a joke, this is reality ...

Thank you for watching

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cyberfarmer

Registered:1293483474
Posts: 544

Posted 1457115098	Reply with quote #16

I would just call that rooting a cutting in two places at the same time. ...unless the "air layer" was made after the cutting was already rooted. Then I would go ahead and call it an air layer, but then I wouldn't call the host a cutting anymore since by the time it has roots and leaves it is already a small tree. Either you rooted a cutting in two places at once, or you started an air layer on a very small tree. Semantics ;) __________________ Paul the Fig Tree Destroyer in Fallbrook, CA (Zone 10A )

Likeo

Registered:1443404708
Posts: 268

Posted 1457116465 · Edited	Reply with quote #17

Quote: Originally Posted by lolita1234 How to root a cutting successfully---> I have demonstrated the art of bag rooting in this forum , so I do know the meaning of CUTTING Regarding air laying , I think I also know the art and meaning of AIR LAYING Some citrus air layers Ask questions first and answer later is my style when I start a new topic Rooting and air laying a cutting at the same time sounds weird to people, because it is something new , not written in any book before . But nothing is impossible . I have a Grapefrutit, do you? __________________ Figs: Conadria and Little Ruby

jdsfrance

Registered:1376988473
Posts: 2,591

Posted 1457164977 · Edited	Reply with quote #18

Hi lolita1234, A branch cut from a tree is a cutting and no longer a tree. So you are rooting a cutting - call it semantics . Now, are you sure that you have roots in the pot ? A branch that big can behave like several branches/cuttings. Because they are still linked together, you may get roots everywhere but in the pot (see* below). But the bottom part will be fed by the other roots. Sometimes when throwing trimming/cuttings to the ground or when burying part of an attached branch, I get roots in the middle of the cutting and at the former top, but not at the former bottom. Now the problem you have is that if you want to separate those cuttings, you'll have to saw them and that will shake the tree ... and may brake the roots. you'll be creating a serious wound too on both of the "new trees". In such a case, IMO, it is best to cut them to smaller cuttings and root each one individually. That experience is fun. Let us know what is the future for it in the topic of separating them into individual trees. (*) Old wood is harder to root. I once had a tree that I could take cuttings of, but quickly (before it got bulldozed ). But it was left with the scaffold branches only (other people, or the former owner had taken all rootable branches) and the ones I took did not make it... __________________ ------------------------ Climate from -25°C to + 35°C Only cold hardy figtrees can make it here

PetiteNegra

Registered:1438872024
Posts: 16

Posted 1457193520	Reply with quote #19

Goodness, the arrogance. What was the question for, if you've already got an answer? Why not just say that you wanted to share a new technique? __________________ Kristen

lolita1234

Registered:1443208094
Posts: 199

Posted 1457194043 · Edited

Reply with quote #20

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdsfrance
Hi lolita1234,

A branch cut from a tree is a cutting and no longer a tree. So you are rooting a cutting - call it semantics .

You are correct, jdsfrance, I was rooting a Huge cutting some time between Thanksgiving and Christmas 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdsfrance
Hi lolita1234,

Now, are you sure that you have roots in the pot ?

Yes, I am sure that there are roots in the pot . Please see the pictures below

As of today Saturday March 05, 2016

Upper part, above the tin foil ball

Bottom part

Some roots do show on the surface of the pot

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdsfrance

Because they are still linked together, you may get roots everywhere but in the pot (see* below). But the bottom part will be fed by the other roots.
...................
...........................

(*) Old wood is harder to root. I once had a tree that I could take cuttings of, but quickly (before it got bulldozed ). But it was left with the scaffold branches only (other people, or the former owner had taken all rootable branches) and the ones I took did not make it...

My cutting was not linked to another tree or any other cutting, except that I tied it to a post so it could not be knocked over since it was high and unbalanced in a 5 G pot .
You can see that my cutting does not have roots everywhere . Just from where I wanted them to be . In this case, only roots at the tin foil ball and at the bottom end (in the pot)

Old wood is harder to root as you quoted, I used to think that way too . But now since I saw the result, I can say that (what we thought before) is not true

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdsfrance

.............

Sometimes when throwing trimming/cuttings to the ground or when burying part of an attached branch, I get roots in the middle of the cutting and at the former top, but not at the former bottom.

You did not get roots at the former bottom because you did not root the cutting . You threw the trimming/cuttings in the ground and let the nature did the rest . Whatever you got was just purely luck, not your work

I can figure out why you did not get roots at the former bottom
You did not bury the whole thing .
The buried part and the middle of the cutting and the former top got rooted because they got the humidity they needed to root . The former bottom was too dry to root

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdsfrance
Hi lolita1234,

Now the problem you have is that if you want to separate those cuttings, you'll have to saw them and that will shake the tree ... and may brake the roots. you'll be creating a serious wound too on both of the "new trees".
In such a case, IMO, it is best to cut them to smaller cuttings and root each one individually.

Thanks for your suggestions, but it is too late to do so .
Anyway, I agree that the saw-all blade will make the roots both in the ball and in the pot fall apart, but that is not an issue for me to worry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdsfrance
..... you'll be creating a serious wound too on both of the "new trees".

Not at all . I love my work . I am able to bring them back as trees once the temp outside is stable . They will be happy new trees

Folks,
There is no arrogance as accused . This is a debate

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bamafig

Registered:1424827282
Posts: 119

Posted 1457197171	Reply with quote #21

So, how long did this process take? Specifically the pot roots of the big cutting? What are the ambient conditions in the room? Is this a known variety that roots easily? __________________ zone 8 4 (local) Celeste, Papa John, LSU Purple, Green Ischia, Brunswick, italian honey, BT, Panache, Deanna, LSU Black, O'Rourke Wish list: Chicago Hardy, VDB, RDB

lolita1234

Registered:1443208094
Posts: 199

Posted 1457200899

Reply with quote #22

Observe another pot (there are 5 total)

Open the foil

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lolita1234

Registered:1443208094
Posts: 199

Posted 1457201361 · Edited

Reply with quote #23

bamafig,
It is an unknown variety so far . The previous owner of the tree said it was a Celeste, but by the description of the fruit from her son, it does not sound a Celeste to me . I will find out when the fruits come out from the cuttings (hopefully) this coming summer .

Regarding your other questions, I am still in discovering phases ..... and I am not in a position to tell people what to do yet until I study more about the case and when I am 100% sure about what/how I got the ... amazed results, I will
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andreas

Registered:1401724296
Posts: 372

Posted 1457202554	Reply with quote #24

can you please, now that you are taking new pictures stop calling it an airlayer. you are confusing people that dont know what an airlayer is, and others that will be reading this topic in the future. other than that. You have done a great job. i hope you get 2 plants and taste the fruit from it this season. best of luck. __________________ andreas-patras Patra Peloponnisos Greece zone..9a

lolita1234

Registered:1443208094
Posts: 199

Posted 1457203996 · Edited

Reply with quote #25

Quote:

Originally Posted by andreas

..... you are confusing people
...........
you get 2 plants and taste the fruit from it this season. best of luck.

both of us are confusing people hehehe because a rooted cutting with trunk more than 1" in diameter is no longer a PLANT but a TREE

Just kidding hehehe

No more kidding in my part ./.
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newk

Registered:1451059632
Posts: 21

Posted 1457372435	Reply with quote #26

Quote: Originally Posted by mnedelcu Well...i don't know about all this stuff...but,regarding the title:yes,you can root a big/huge cutting,my biggest one was 2.7inches diam. I have my best success with end cuttings as large as I can find but I have success with center cuttings up to an inch in diameter, don't think I have ever tried one larger than that. If I try to start a plant from a branch that large, I go to the air layering it on the tree. __________________ Charles D. Newkirk

bamafig

Registered:1424827282
Posts: 119

Posted 1458352399	Reply with quote #27

I came across this video. I dont speak french, but it deals with a large cutting. __________________ zone 8 4 (local) Celeste, Papa John, LSU Purple, Green Ischia, Brunswick, italian honey, BT, Panache, Deanna, LSU Black, O'Rourke Wish list: Chicago Hardy, VDB, RDB

lolita1234

Registered:1443208094
Posts: 199

Posted 1458630295 · Edited

Reply with quote #28

Whatever you said, whatever you called, here is up to date (03/22/2016)

There was a total of 5 huge cuttings, about 8' - 12' high, 2.5" - 3.2" diameter, and 2 smaller size , 5' high and 1" diameter. Cuttings were rooting around Thanksgiving time 2015
Foil tin balls were done a few days later using air layering method . Total of 9 foil tin balls for 7 trunks
Winter time . Indoor. Temp 65 F - 70 F . Light : 4 T16 neon/24 hours. Fan 6 hours/day
Rooting hormone : Hormodin 2
Medium : Moisture Control Soil .
Pot : 5 G

As of today, the below pictures show that a previous huge cutting is no longer ... a cutting, but 2 standing trees linked together in 1 pot . The whole thing was recently moved to outside for fresh air and for more growth .

Pictures of 1 trunk
Above the foil tin ball

Below the foil tin part

Upper and lower parts

What are in the tin foil ball ?

Base part

Bottom (before the tree was moved to outdoor)

Story :
Thursday : Found tree for sale on Craigslist around Thanksgiving 2015 inside a back yard . Seller stated that the tree was 10 years old. Variety : Celeste . Only access was a 40" x 6' wooden gate

Friday : Seller wanted the whole tree to be gone no later than Sunday afternoon . Started to remove all small limbs . More than 850 cuttings (4 nods each) collected and a truck load of different size limbs..

Saturday : Discover that tree was not 10 years old as seller stated
7 big trunks were standing on a huge stump hidden under layers of dry leaves and grass mulches
No way to dig the whole tree out in one piece . Have to cut off all the trunks down in order to get out of the gate

Sunday : Stump was 3'6" wide . Use saw-all to remove all the roots sticking out the stump (2' circumference) , 1' deep then divided it into 4 sections . Sliced each section with a long blade . Broke 4 blades and could not go deeper.
Finally got the job done by 4:00 pm .

Saved 1 slice of hard wood for experimental purpose and get rid of all the rest ( a pickup load of broken roots!)
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lolita1234

Registered:1443208094
Posts: 199

Posted 1458657509 · Edited

Reply with quote #29

Thanks, barnafig, for the video. I do speak French so I understand it well, however IMO to dig a hole like that is way too much for me . Using a small pot is simpler and easier to move the tree everywhere you wanted .

My plan is to move all of them to more than 2000 miles away with a U-Haul box truck. I know that the road will be not smooth, but bumpy . I will manage to take them with me wherever I go .... in a very near future

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torontofig

Registered:1429290881
Posts: 60

Posted 1458664964	Reply with quote #30

it is really a good harvest. the thick stems help you save a few years to grow from baby tree. :) __________________ Thornhill-Vaughan (GTA) Zone 6 Beginner in 2015

lolita1234

Registered:1443208094
Posts: 199

Posted 1458678763

Reply with quote #31

Quote:

Originally Posted by torontofig
...
the thick stems help you save a few years to grow from baby tree. :)

Good bonsai projects ! that is what I have in my head now
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loslunasfarms

Registered:1189011868
Posts: 380

Posted 1461093892	Reply with quote #32

I think ive got you all beat so far.

rcantor

Registered:1309799312
Posts: 5,724

Posted 1461104214	Reply with quote #33

Jose! Nice to see you posting. Are you 'back in the USSA'? __________________ Zone 6, MO Wish list: Galicia Negra, De La Reina - Pons, Genovese Nero - Rafed's, Sbayi, Souadi, Acciano, Any Rimada, Sodus Sicilian, any Bass, Pons or Axier fig, any great tasting fig.

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