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Fig trees from Seed

Hello Team Fig,

Can anyone comment on if there is any circumstance where growing figs from seeds is worthwhile?
I believe the seeds have come from trees that have been caprified.
I am considering experimenting with growing some varieties from seed and I need some guidance.

Its just for fun, but I don't want to waste too much time.

Let me know your thoughts.

thanks as always
Nas

I have read many others on both forums who are doing this.

The odds of a resulting "common" (self-pollinating) fig is apparently somewhat rare, I have this thought in my mind, it's like 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 or something.

I believe there is a 3-4 year wait or more to see what fruit it provides.

Someone with much more knowledge can probably answer.  I do not have personal experience, and only know what I've read (out of my personal interest) here and at GW/FF.

Do it for the fun. Otheriwse it is more like the lottery. 1/2 will be caprifigs. The other half might be something good, or something that doesn't fruit, or that doesn't fruit much, that is too small, tastes terrible, etc. I have seen no reliable info on whether they can also be San Pedro types, Smyrna types and common types. The crosses made by Condit were predicated on the ability to get common figs from crosses involving Smyrna types, but I have seen no data that says that that is possible. How the three types interact or give rise to each other through breeding seems to still be mstly a mystery.

I play with a few, but I have no expectations.

Thanks Jon and Jason, I appreciate the input.

I suspected Jon played around with seedlings.  I have read much of the same info you have regarding starting from seed.
However, I am still confused how my contact claims to have seeds from certain fig varieties.
1) where do they get the seeds?
2) if they have a particular variety, whats the process of getting "seed" from that type? 
3) how do they control how the seed was pollinated?
4) is the process of obtaining seed from these types similar in any way to obtaining seeds from say the cucurbit? family (melons, cucumbers, squash) where there is a process involved of segregating plants/flowers etc

Unfortunately, I cannot get much clear info from these people with the seeds because there is a language barrier and I cannot discern (YET) if they can verify if others have successfully started from seed and are ACTUALLY eating fruit from those trees.

If I had acreage I would have no problem doing trials, but I'm in resi area and my lot is 54' wide by 134' deep and I have to be careful adding useless varieties, even with sexy names.

If anyone else can speak on this, jump in...

Nas




The seeds are produced by fruit from a particular variety, but will not be true from seed. They will also reflect the genes of the male tree, as well. USDA / UC Davis tested my Encanto, which is known to be a seedling of Vista Black Mission, and they are about as far apart, genetically, as almost anything in their collection. You don't control how it is pollinated, unless you are doing a specific cross, and bag the pollinated fig, to keep it from being pollinated "naturally".

All of the seeds coming from Turkey, on Ebay, will be a pig in a poke. But I got some, anyway, just for fun.

As I said, play, but don't have too many high expectations.

Nas, You don't say where you are.  If you are not in a zone where the fig wasp is available, the figs will not ripen (they drop) unless you hand pollinate.  The chance that you'll get a common fig is almost zero, and half of the seedlings will be totally inedible.  Add to that the time it will take to grow them out and figure what you've got. 
The folks who are selling seeds are just taking them out of open pollinated fruit and are selling them to people who don't realize the problems involved. 
There are a lot of nice common varieties available.  So unless you just want to have some fun or are serious about breeding, it doesn't seem worth the trouble to grow figs from seed.

Hi Fignut,

well if the chances of getting a common fig are almost zero then, I probably wont bother.  I'm in 6a.
IF % of getting a common type were higher, the next question would be how to coax the seedlings into earlier fruit production so the decision could be made quickly.  Ive read that some Israeli researchers have had success with early fruiting for testing with intensive growth techniques but I cannot get details on the procedure.

Jon, you mention the fig seeds from Turkey, aren't most of the types from turkey Smyrna or San-Pedro that would need the wasp anyway?  Ive always kind of wondered what type of effort I should put into attaining varieties from Turkey.  My cousin is married to a Turk and they go regularly to Turkey.

Nas

Nas, I won't even recommend the fun part experimenting with seeds since it takes at least 3 years before the outcomes are known.
Likely its more fun to go about the Toronto neighbourhood & hunt figs. I was in fact so tempted yesterday in Vancouver(12*C) -- in the
older section of Burnaby suburb. I saw so many fig trees like every 8th house have a fig tree, some even with net protection. I ended
my short 45 mins search with 2 free bottles of jam to take home & some no name suckers. The cell rang & the wife was looking for a ride
to dim sim's lunch.



yeah, its probably not worth it.  

Its tricky sometimes to decide where to spend the energy.  The fig has a certain mystique around it.  I can find books upon books on apple growing, peaches, etc, but very little consensus on whats best for the fig. 

I guess that's why its great we can all share our knowledge in a place like this forum.

If I were to group my priorities aside from the pure fun aspect (which is 90% of it for me, oh yeah and the EATING!), I would say:
1) expansion of distribution of current known varieties to ensure preservation
2) continued trialing of known varieties to determine their worth in specific zones
3) broadening knowledge of cultural techniques with consideration given to zone and variety

Best,
Nas

The male parent (caprifig) has to be "persistent" to get any common seedlings - even if the fig (female parent) is common.  The chances of that happening in the wild are almost zero as there are very few persistent caprifigs.  Persistent caprifigs are what Condit used in his breeding work.
Ray Givan has a good explanation on his web site:  http://www.raysfiginfo.com/figsex.html
The Fig, by Storey, Enderud, Saleeb, Nauer and The New Fig Booklet by Givan and Born are reasonably priced and explain a lot.
I had heard that seedling figs can be grafted or budded onto established fig trees to cut down on the time needed to trial seedlings.  I'm not familiar with the Israeli technique.

I have some seedlings that are 10 years old and have not fruited. One fruited at 15 months old (Raspberry Latte). I have seedlings from 2004 that fruited for the first time last season - one looks promising. I play a little, but don't spend a lot of time on it. Many come up voluntarily in the yard, and I keep a few each year.

Nas if you want some seedlings I should be able to give you a few this summer from the seeds I bought on ebay from Turkey. Like Jon said its just for fun just to see what happens. I also have seeds still if you want let me know I too am in Toronto.

Hello,

    Here is a brief bit of information that might be useful.    There are two issues that are more important to us in regards to the genetics of figs.  One is sex and the other is persistence vs caducous (trees that will make figs without pollination and those that require pollination)

1) Sex
1a)  When a fig (female) is pollinated with a caprifig, half will be female and half will be caprifigs
1b)  When a caprifig is self-pollinated or when two caprifigs are crossed, the ratio is one fig (female) to three caprifigs.    (it is unlikely that you will be dealing with these sorts of seeds

2)   Persistent (making figs without caprification) and caducous / Smyrna types (figs that require caprification or pollination from a caprifig)

a)  caducous fig x caducous caprifig = all caducous   (Caducous caprifigs are the common caprifig and are home to the fig wasp.   These are the caprifig types used to pollinate caducous female figs, aka Smyrna types such as the Sari Lop aka Turkish dried figs, etc.   Caducous caprifig named varieties include: Stanford, Roeding #3, Roeding #4, etc.)

b)  caducous fig x persistent caprifig = half caducous and half persistent   (persistent caprifigs are rare in nature but have been found and are used for breeding programs.   Varieties such as Saleeb, Croisic / Gillette, Enderud, Capri Q - are examples.   These figs are not good homes for the fig wasp though, and artificial pollen transfer is required.   Many of these caprifigs are edible, some better than others.  

c)  Persistent fig x caducous caprifig = all caducous

d)  persistent fig x persistent caprifig = half caducous and half persistent

    So here are a few hypothetical situations that you might encounter.
1)   If for example you were using seeds from a dried fig that you purchased at the store you would likely be encountering a caducous fix that was crossed with a caducous caprifig which would result in all of the progeny being caducous and of this batch, half will be female caducous and the other half caprifig caducous.  You will not get any figs that will be persistent and unless you live where the fig wasp lives or have access to pollen for manual pollination - you will never see any fruit.

2)  If for example you were using seeds from a persistent female fig (the common edible fig) that was pollinated by a caducous caprifig (the most common situation) then you would still end up with the exact results in the example above.  You would  never get fruit.

    It takes having persistent caprifig pollen to have a chance of creating a persistent female fig and then you are entering another realm where many possibilities of variability exist - variation in taste, size, color, good for drying or better for fresh, could be insipid, etc.    So, if you have any desire to plant seeds and possibly create a plant that will make fruit, you should get a persistent caprifig and do some breeding by hand.

  You asked about any other good reason to grow fig seeds.  Here are some.

1)   As discussed, creating a new fig is possible, but will take a lot of space and time and you need a proper persistent caprifig

2)   It might be fun just to grow some figs form seed!

3)  Figs grown from seed will be free from mosaic virus.   If one had an interest in having some clean rootstock for grafting, this might be a good experiment.   This would also require some complex steps to obtain a virus free scion - that is another topic.

I hope that this helps (I hope that I explained it clearly).   It does take reading and studying the material to get a grasp of what is going on.  Not always easy to pick up the first few times of reading.  It has taken me a while to digest what is going on.
 
Ingevald

p.s. One of the best explanations of this aspect of fig genetics is located in the book 'The Fig' by William Storey, Julius Enderud, Wadie Saleeb and Edward Nauer published by the Jurupa Mountains Cultural Center.   Copies can be obtained from the CRFG.

    

 

I have two of my fig trees one which is Brown Turkey and the other one is Celeste.  These two trees carry a lot of figs but never ripen. It is dry and has no taste. From my reading and research I think these two trees are males and will never produce edible figs without pollination. Pollination by the fig wasp is impossible because I live in zone 7B and the fig wasp will never visit our area. The other way is hand pollination which I have no idea how it is done and the time and expertise needed to do it. I waited 3 long years to find out two of my trees are males. very disappointing. I buy my fig trees from nurseries I  don't raise figs from seeds no way. My question is; is there any way to look at a small fig tree and determine it is a male or a female. I wonder if there is a method to do that. I know there is one method for grape trees. I have 4 female grape trees and one male tree to pollinate them. Grape nurseries sell trees labeled female or male. I have another 4 young fig trees (no production yet) but I am scared for them to be all males.
Can any one give me a hand about this subject.
thank you

There is an excellent picture of a "male" caprifig here http://waynesword.palomar.edu/arbimg10.htm   Go down to Chapter 7 and look for the caption "Longitudinal section through a caprifig profichi syconium in June showing male flowers."   It is a very good photo with the various parts identified.   Keep in mind that caprifigs also have female parts, but for identification purposes, the male pollen bearing structures are very distinctive.

   There may be other reasons that your Brown Turkey and Celeste is not making fruit - this is assuming that they were labeled correctly when you purchased them. Here are some thoughts and questions.

1)  Are the figs growing in containers or in the ground??  

3)  not enough water, too much? or there is a nutrient imbalance
4)  sunlight issue, not enough
5)  How is the vegetative growth aspect?   Are they vigorous or are they not growing much?
6)   If it freezes to the ground every winter and spends most of its time making vegetative growth, figs may not ripen.
7)  If grown in containers, the root zone may be overheating causing the plant to not grow properly.
8)  You could have a mislabeled fig...
9)  Others may chime in with some advice.

Ingevald
 
 
 

Ingevald
Thank you for your valuable information. I bought these two fig trees from a nursery called Willis and a lot of people on fig boards are complaining from the way they label their fig trees not accurate at all. I have another 2 Brown Turkey trees bought from another nursery and all the 4 trees are planted in 16 inches pots. I put approximately  35 holes in each lower half of the pots and planted all the pots in a very good soil with rich compost in a raised bed. The four trees growth is vigorous and they are around 6-7 feet tall. All got fertilized the same way and each get 2 gallons of water  a week and the water drains reasonably quickly. All the trees produced a lot of figs. The figs on the good two brown Turkey ripened to more than three gallons of sweet delicious figs. The two trees in question, their figs does not ripen at all it turns red but dry and has no taste. The roots of all the fig trees travel in the garden through the holes and they are healthy and vigorous. I know that because I use the shovel around the pots and cut the roots that is in November of each year and take the trees and the pots to spend the winter in my garage protecting them from our freezing winter. Last year the same thing happened and these two trees figs fell down on the floor. The sad thing is these two trees look very good and very healthy. When I told my wife and my kids I may cut these two trees they jumped on me and said NO we love the trees leave them alone for decoration.

Does anyone know which of the available persistent caprifigs are hardier than the others?

I don't know how hardy any of them are, but I started 228-20 and 271-1 and will be testing them to find out.
My guess is that Gillette or a caprifig bred from it would the most cold hardy you would find. But that is only a guess.

Abraham:Get rid of those caprifig.
If they do not make any ripe fruits they will grow so strong and dense roots that they will do something to your house foundation,or kill your Common type figs,by taking over the area.
After all they do not spend any energy on fruiting,so they will grow fast and strong,unlike Common fruiting figs..

Willis Orchards does not sell caprifigs.  If the soil drains quickly try watering them every day.  It might help to mulch them.



Seedlings in a 1 gallon pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aphahn
I don't know how hardy any of them are, but I started 228-20 and 271-1 and will be testing them to find out. My guess is that Gillette or a caprifig bred from it would the most cold hardy you would find. But that is only a guess.


aphahn, thanks.  I just got a Gillette in the mail today from Almost Eden.  https://almostedenplants.com/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=9969
I always feel like it's Christmas when I get a shipment like this one...dreaming of little fig babies from crosses with this one :) 

  • Paul
  • · Edited

The coldest Corner where Figs grow are the Hindukusch and Pamir Mountains. I surch Variity from this area.
I have begin grow afghan seedlings. Just the first adult. In Future more new Variity female and Caprifig Fig. In this Time all persistend.

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