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Porfirio

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Posted Reply with quote  #1 
Hi every body.
I know growing figs from cuttings is a nice way of propagating but it's long before you get them producing fruit.
And being in zone 5 that short summer season, I would like to give the best chance to the plants .
So, I've decided to do some grafting for the type of figs I have just one small tree to go faster.
1st question.
Wich type of grafting do you guys prefer,bud,chip,whip and tongue,bark graft, V graft or cleft.
I know how to do most of them, Just not sure wich time is better.
2nd
 Do you graft during dormancy,during brake bud or during full growth?
Thank you all.
God bless. 
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fignutty

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Posted Reply with quote  #2 
I've had good results with T budding during active growth when bark is slipping. Near 100% takes. But growth can be slow after forcing the inserted bud.

Cleft grafts have worked when bark isn't slipping. Haven't tried too many so far.

Results have been 50% takes with chip buds. I find chip budding much more difficult to line up cambium layers than cleft or splice grafts.

Figs are pretty easy to bud or graft it just takes good technique at the right time.
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Porfirio

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Posted Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fignutty
I've had good results with T budding during active growth when bark is slipping. Near 100% takes. But growth can be slow after forcing the inserted bud.

Cleft grafts have worked when bark isn't slipping. Haven't tried too many so far.

Results have been 50% takes with chip buds. I find chip budding much more difficult to line up cambium layers than cleft or splice grafts.

Figs are pretty easy to bud or graft it just takes good technique at the right time.

Thanks fignutty much appreciated
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cjccmc

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Posted Reply with quote  #4 
HarveyC has some nice videos:

https://www.youtube.com/Figaholics
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Posted Reply with quote  #5 

The Rind Bark graft delivers the quickest growth after grafting that I've seen from the many different grafting techniques that I've used with figs. 
Jsacadura

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Posted Reply with quote  #6 
For me the quickest growth is Whip and Tongue. Many varieties even produce some figs in the first year of grafting. I use it since March until August with dormant cuttings in growing branches.

It's my prefered technique followed by Chip Budding which i use from March to August/September with dormant or green buds.

This year i even made a few in October with green cuttings that i received - i never made such late grafts with dropping temperatures at night so the jury is still out on the success of these. I will know if they took in a few weeks.
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Porfirio

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Posted Reply with quote  #7 
Thank you Conrad and RunsSlow
I checked Cleft grafting from HarveyC probably will return to watch the other grafting videos from him .
Very well explained and I saw the date he filmed it April 8.
So I`m going to do it in spring seems to be the good time.
I will try some in late spring too.
Just to see how they perform.
Thank you again.
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Porfirio

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Posted Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jsacadura
For me the quickest growth is Whip and Tongue. Many varieties even produce some figs in the first year of grafting. I use it since March until August with dormant cuttings in growing branches.

It's my prefered technique followed by Chip Budding which i use from March to August/September with dormant or green buds.

This year i even made a few in October with green cuttings that i received - i never made such late grafts with dropping temperatures at night so the jury is still out on the success of these. I will know if they took in a few weeks.



Thank you Jaime
Nice to know you get a good rate of success and quickest growth with whip and tongue.
I will give it a try  too along with the other grafting technics . 
Much appreciated.
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Jsacadura

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Posted Reply with quote  #9 
Here's some very good tips on this technique:

https://courses.cit.cornell.edu/hort494/mg/methods.alpha/WTMeth.html
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Posted Reply with quote  #10 
V graft has worked the best for me... IMO, it's easier for beginners too...
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Porfirio

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Posted Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfarach
V graft has worked the best for me... IMO, it's easier for beginners too...

Hi Simon C.
I have one of those grafting tools that makes Ω, V and chip cuts.
I'll give a try at the V graft too.
Ω cut, I've Tried it when I 1st got the tool and, did not like it as it tends to peel when you push the scion into the rootstalk sideways.
Thank you
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toisanwu

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Posted Reply with quote  #12 
Hi Rio,

I did 5 t-buding grafting using cuttings I got from the good folks on this forum.  The t-buds came from the cuttings I got from the good folks on this forum (couple of months old, stored in the frig).  The root stocks were: 1) a good size fig tree I got from Ottawan (early violet, but not so early for producing figs apparently) and 2) a mature fig tree grown from seed.  I did my grafting early April.  Unfortunately none took.  I never saw any t-buds showed any sign of life.  They failed perhaps because the rootstocks were yet actively growing.

At the same time, I also did six whip and tongue grafting of Asian pears (cutting also stored for couple of months in the frig prior) on dormant rootstocks.  They all took and have been quite thriving (except one, which I mowed over with a lawn mower:( ).

BTW, this was my first grafting exercise.  I will try tongue and whip on the figs again come next spring.

Good luck on your grafting and please update on your progress later.
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Jsacadura

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Posted Reply with quote  #13 
Bill,

Fig trees are more difficult to graft than apples and pears. Not in the sense the technique is more difficult, but they are much more sensible to humidity loss.

They have to be well protected during the first weeks. I use perforated bread paper bags and aluminium foil for the whip and tongue and parafilm and aluminum foil for chip budding. When they begin showing leaves i remove the aluminum foil but leave the paper bag for a while.

The first year i tried, before i did that, all my fig grafts failed. Now i have percentages of 80-85% (whip and tongue) and 70-75% (chip budding) and the ones that failed are mostly from cuttings that are in bad shape to start with.

I also believe that t-buds in figs are more prone to fail than chip-buds. I use t-bus mainly in peaches and plums.
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Jaime - Zone 9b - near Caldas da Rainha - Portugal
Wish List: São Luís, Valamandil, Sofeno Tradicional, Cótio, Cavaleiro, Belmandil, Coll de Dame de Ciutat, Strawberry Verte, Marabout, Sihagi.
Porfirio

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Posted Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by toisanwu
Hi Rio,

I did 5 t-buding grafting using cuttings I got from the good folks on this forum.  The t-buds came from the cuttings I got from the good folks on this forum (couple of months old, stored in the frig).  The root stocks were: 1) a good size fig tree I got from Ottawan (early violet, but not so early for producing figs apparently) and 2) a mature fig tree grown from seed.  I did my grafting early April.  Unfortunately none took.  I never saw any t-buds showed any sign of life.  They failed perhaps because the rootstocks were yet actively growing.

At the same time, I also did six whip and tongue grafting of Asian pears (cutting also stored for couple of months in the frig prior) on dormant rootstocks.  They all took and have been quite thriving (except one, which I mowed over with a lawn mower:( ).

BTW, this was my first grafting exercise.  I will try tongue and whip on the figs again come next spring.

Good luck on your grafting and please update on your progress later.


Thank you for the imput Bill.
It will be my first attempt too with figs come spring.
But I will try to take the scions strait from the plants I want to multiply just before they start braking bud in spring.
The latex sap will be less prone to drawn the graft too.
I suppose.
That way I know that the buds on the scion are well formed and ready to grow.
Will post the outcome.
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Jsacadura

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Posted Reply with quote  #15 
Rio,

You can graft throughout the whole season. The growing flow of sap doesn't have to be a problem.

As i mentioned in another thread you just have to make a few superficial cuts below the point of the graft. 

The cuts should be superficial but deep enough to reach the vascular tissues. This allow for the excessive sap to escape the branch you are going to graft. 

You can do that some time before the graft if the tree has a great flow of sap or minutes before, if the flow is medium. This avoids the drowning of the graft. 

This season i did grafts in March, April, May, early June, late August, September and (for the first time), October. These last one's i will have to check next week, but even the September one's took. I just avoided the hot days of July and August.

Curious thing... Sometimes the chips begin developing in weeks and sometimes they take but keep dormant for several months. I even had chips that i thought were dead and after more than a year they began developing.

Here's a chip grafted about a month ago:



And here's one grafted in June:






And this one was grafted in August 2015. To my surprise last week it has awaken from it's dormancy:



To be fair this last one was grafted to very old wood that had been cut down and the fig trees are very quick to take sap from a zone that has no leafs.

A few more photos of different types of grafts here - Grafts 2015_2016
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Jaime - Zone 9b - near Caldas da Rainha - Portugal
Wish List: São Luís, Valamandil, Sofeno Tradicional, Cótio, Cavaleiro, Belmandil, Coll de Dame de Ciutat, Strawberry Verte, Marabout, Sihagi.
Porfirio

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Posted Reply with quote  #16 
Thank you Jaime
Nice job and it sure is good to see the result,s gives me confidence to try it your ways.
Allthough the season here is different I can manage to calculate the difference so it is about the same equivalence.
I'm confident it will work with all the information provided by you.
Thank you again.
Best wishes
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Jsacadura

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Posted Reply with quote  #17 
You're welcome.

If you adapt to your region and protect well your attempts you should be fine. 

As i said before, I've learned that important lesson the hard way. Then i saw a video of a guy in Palestine doing one of the worst grafting jobs i ever saw (rough cuts, poor alignment of cambium, etc), but he protected his fig grafts like i never did. It's probably the most important part of the success of grafting figs.

Here's the video - Grafting figs in Palestine

Best of luck for your grafts.
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Jaime - Zone 9b - near Caldas da Rainha - Portugal
Wish List: São Luís, Valamandil, Sofeno Tradicional, Cótio, Cavaleiro, Belmandil, Coll de Dame de Ciutat, Strawberry Verte, Marabout, Sihagi.
rayrose

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Posted Reply with quote  #18 
Jaime,

That's an amazing video, and the guy does a lot of the same things
that I do, except I cut off the corners of the bags for ventilation. I
don't know his success rate, but I believe it has to do with the length of the
cuttings, and how he shoved them down as deeply as he could into the
very long cuts that he made into the host branch. I've never seen anyone use
pruning shears to make cuts into the host branch. His method allows for maximum
cambrium coverage, which makes a lot of sense. It's unusual for someone to send
you cuttings that long.  It also makes it possible for him to be as rough
as he was in covering the graft with grocery bags and then paper bags. Since they're
so deep, he doesn't have to worry about misalignment. I wonder how long he leaves
the bags on the graft.  Thanks for posting the video.

Ray
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lampo

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Posted Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rayrose
Jaime,

That's an amazing video, and the guy does a lot of the same things
that I do, except I cut off the corners of the bags for ventilation. I
don't know his success rate, but I believe it has to do with the length of the
cuttings, and how he shoved them down as deeply as he could into the
very long cuts that he made into the host branch. I've never seen anyone use
pruning shears to make cuts into the host branch. His method allows for maximum
cambrium coverage, which makes a lot of sense. It's unusual for someone to send
you cuttings that long. (hint, hint) It also makes it possible for him to be as rough
as he was in covering the graft with grocery bags and then paper bags. Since they're
so deep, he doesn't have to worry about misalignment. I wonder how long he leaves
the bags on the graft.  Thanks for posting the video.

Ray 


The fellow doing those single 'clefts' and not using the reccomendable tooling knows his job. He has healthy root stock and scions for a start (BTW he seems to be grafting Sbaiy)
He does not bother for a second with 'Cambium alignment' ..with his cuts this is IMPOSSIBLE!
But he makes sure that somewhere along the rough cuts, cambiums will cross!   the rest is a firm tie up and insulation from air and water!

CAMBIUM CROSSING is the name of the game.  and that is enough!

I wouldn't be surprised he gets a high %take. Try yourself  (*) this coming Feb on the more temperate regions and March on the colder areas.
Good luck !

(*) may be using more adequate tooling

Francisco
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Porfirio

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Posted Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jsacadura
You're welcome.

If you adapt to your region and protect well your attempts you should be fine. 

As i said before, I've learned that important lesson the hard way. Then i saw a video of a guy in Palestine doing one of the worst grafting jobs i ever saw (rough cuts, poor alignment of cambium, etc), but he protected his fig grafts like i never did. It's probably the most important part of the success of grafting figs.

Here's the video - Grafting figs in Palestine

Best of luck for your grafts.



Thank you Jaime
I Had seen that video before, I didn't save the video for my files to use exactly for the reasons you mention;"(rough cuts, poor alignment of cambium, etc)" .
I would be afraid to make slits that long in the small trees  we have in cold climate zones.
If they failed it would set back fruiting probably another year or two.
I would tather put all hances on my side making the grafts better as possible.
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Porfirio

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Posted Reply with quote  #21 
Hi Francisco.
The man has the odes on his side, well estabillished inground trees. 
Here the trees are in pots and overwinter for 6 full months.
It is safe to assume they come out of dormancy in a less than ideal shape so, it is hard to decide to take chances like that.
The grafts could take but, if not well aligned, I guess the healing process would not take place completly  before the end of the short season.
I might try it on one graft though.

 
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rayrose

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Posted Reply with quote  #22 
I also noticed that his root stock was totally dormant, which is unusual in my experience.
I wonder, if he uses this method with other fruits too.  
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Porfirio

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Posted Reply with quote  #23 
And thank you everybody for the usefull coments.
Best wishes to you all
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lampo

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Posted Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Porfirio
Hi Francisco.
The man has the odes on his side, well estabillished inground trees. 
Here the trees are in pots and overwinter for 6 full months.
It is safe to assume they come out of dormancy in a less than ideal shape so, it is hard to decide to take chances like that.
The grafts could take but, if not well aligned, I guess the healing process would not take place completly  before the end of the short season.
I might try it on one graft though.

 


Hi Porfirio,

If your trees and scions are healthy, and the season right,.. never mind ground or pot
If you have time and be patient, I would recommend you read this..

http://growingfruit.org/t/cambium-cross-or-cambium-match/55

as well as watch how this fellow grafts old cherry trees , in season, and most important,  listen to what he has to say on cambium crossing.



Francisco
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cjccmc

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Posted Reply with quote  #25 
It would simplify grafting a lot (for me) if all I had to do was get some tiny amount of cambium contact. I spend considerable effort to try and get perfect matches along most of the cambiums in my whip/tongue grafts. It's easier to just angle the scion so that contact is made at some point. It's hard to believe that a tiny amount of intersecting contact is as good as a lot of contact but maybe it works out the same. Anybody ever experiment with crossing contact in figs?
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Porfirio

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Posted Reply with quote  #26 
I'm amazed Francisco .
Learning somethinng every day,nice way of going at it.well explained too.
Thank you for the effort aplied on the subject,much apreciated.
Wis you the best
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lampo

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Posted Reply with quote  #27 
Fellows,

IMHO is, as said before, practically impossible to get the cambium line 'parallel' or aligned between stock and scion. This line is thinner than a line drawn by a sharp pencil!
Take a while to watch this same contractor exercising the same concept when doing side grafts..

#t=210.182875

so simple. It works on practically all trees , figs included .

Here we are,  in geometrical terms, talking of intersecting cambium lines at minute angles... making a very shallow 'X'

Again, when you peel a trunk or a limb (with sap flowing), that thin cambium area gets itself split into two live 1/2 surface cambiums if I may say..
One half surface  sticks to the lifted bark,  the other also live cambium half surface covers the hard wood.
And both are ready to accept a scion cambium line or surface to make a successful graft .
Watch how this girl grafts a cocoa tree with a scion of an improved variety



lt looks and it's quite simple
Good grafting
Francisco
cjccmc

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Posted Reply with quote  #28 
Thanks for the links Francisco.

I'm surprised that most grafting guides (sketches, etc.) I've seen do not say to deliberately orient the cambium lines at small crossing angles so that intersection is guaranteed. If that's all it takes then making sure the surfaces are flat and making contact at the area where they appear to cross would be easier than trying to make flat contact everywhere.

When rootstock is same diameter as scion, I find making and fitting the tongue the most problematic for whip/tongue graft. I may just try a splice without tongue on my next ones and see if I can get those to work.
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Porfirio

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Posted Reply with quote  #29 
Amazing
I will stop breaking my head with grafting technics right now!
Whatever will be the results on my grafting odissey.
It will be a great learning experience .
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venturabananas

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Posted Reply with quote  #30 
Don't graft figs during dormancy.  Bud break or full growth are fine.  At least that has been my experience.

Probably any technique will work.  Whip or whip and tongue, and bark grafts have worked best for me.  If I have a stump to graft to, bark graft, if I have a smaller branch, whip/whip&tongue.  One of my bark grafts put on about 8 feet of growth this year before I tip-pruned it. Crazy.
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Posted Reply with quote  #31 
This is a great tip, Jaime. I know this is also what Francisco emphasizes. Thanks!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jsacadura
You're welcome.

If you adapt to your region and protect well your attempts you should be fine. 

As i said before, I've learned that important lesson the hard way. Then i saw a video of a guy in Palestine doing one of the worst grafting jobs i ever saw (rough cuts, poor alignment of cambium, etc), but he protected his fig grafts like i never did. It's probably the most important part of the success of grafting figs.

Here's the video - Grafting figs in Palestine

Best of luck for your grafts.
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Porfirio

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Posted Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Originally Posted by venturabananas
Don't graft figs during dormancy.  Bud break or full growth are fine.  At least that has been my experience.

Probably any technique will work.  Whip or whip and tongue, and bark grafts have worked best for me.  If I have a stump to graft to, bark graft, if I have a smaller branch, whip/whip&tongue.  One of my bark grafts put on about 8 feet of growth this year before I tip-pruned it. Crazy.


Mark thanks for the information on the best grafting time.
That was one of my big concerns.
 If, the grafting is done in the right time of the year,the graft should heal faster and better (IMHO).
Best wishes to you.
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Jsacadura

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Posted Reply with quote  #33 
Francisco,

You're completely right.

We just need to make the cambium cross to improve the chances for a successful graft.

That's why i don't bother much to try and find a branch of exactly the same diameter for the whip and tongue or to make a chip graft cut fit exactly perfectly. Those small differences in size and diameter assure that in a few places the cambiums will cross.

If the diameter is exactly the same i usually skew the scion a little bit so they cross. It's much better doing that that having a scion sitting in the middle of a bigger diameter rootstock without the cambiums touching.

With thinner diameter scions a slightly longer cut allows for better tapping and more cambium crossing possibilities.

Usually, when the cambiums are fusing we can see that the growth is not equal in all the areas of contact. The places where the cambiums have crossed always start to fuse first and accumulate more healing tissue. Then the process continues to include all the wound.
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lampo

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Posted Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jsacadura
Francisco,

You're completely right.

We just need to make the cambium cross to improve the chances for a successful graft.

That's why i don't bother much to try and find a branch of exactly the same diameter for the whip and tongue or to make a chip graft cut fit exactly perfectly. Those small differences in size and diameter assure that in a few places the cambiums will cross.

If the diameter is exactly the same i usually skew the scion a little bit so they cross. It's much better doing that that having a scion sitting in the middle of a bigger diameter root stock without the cambiums touching.

With thinner diameter scions a slightly longer cut allows for better tapping and more cambium crossing possibilities.

Usually, when the cambiums are fusing we can see that the growth is not equal in all the areas of contact. The places where the cambiums have crossed always start to fuse first and accumulate more healing tissue. Then the process continues to include all the wound.












Hi Jaime
That's it. I always make sure I do that on most methods and hardly loose one
For the fellows in higher latitudes and to avoid long waiting for the Natural right timing, I would suggest that they keep the scions in the fridge (1 to 3ºC) and - if that is possible- bring in the root stocks inside or in a GH..watering and lightly fertilizing.... by about end of Feb/early March, prior to a full moon - approx 7 March/2017- do your chips, whips$tgs  or cleft grafts.. as the weather warms up bring the trees outside. ..If not successful , do not despair you still have Spring, with sap flowing and waiting for eventual chip or an inverted (*) T bud to replace any failure.
Another option shall be 'patch budding'.. which goes very well with figs
All these you may do up to late summer..

(*) imverted, to try and avoid sap from flooding the graft

Done a pair of chip-buds last Spring , close to a full Moon   -DK on an old but healthy Côtea-   Revisited the site yesterday and found two whips over 9' with over 3 dozen main crop figs ripening !!   -(no space for pictures now but will show)

Another good source for information (see their advice on cleft graft section)
http://www.extension.umn.edu/garden/yard-garden/fruit/grafting-and-budding-fruit-trees/#cleft-graft

Francisco
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cjccmc

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Posted Reply with quote  #35 
Thanks to Francisco and others for your inputs on this subject. Grafting is something I'm very interested in and have been unable to find a reason why all my previous attempts have failed since my scion fits seemed as good as those I've seen in teaching videos.

Knowing that just a small amount of cambium contact is needed for a successful graft I will angle the scions just enough to see that it is out of contact at both ends so somewhere in the middle there has to be crossing. It's fun to have something new to try!
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