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HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #1 
I've been kicking this around for a few weeks and communicating to a few other members/friends but haven't come up with anything definitive yet.

I've located several wild caprifigs around my area and seen photos from Aaron and JR on their discoveries but I'm wondering how one determines if it is persistent or not.  I'm hoping to try to do some informal (?) fig breeding and would like the progeny to include common type figs, so I need a persistent caprifig.  Ideally, I'd like to have a black caprifig that is also persistent.

If you've read something on this, please share what you've found.  Thanks!
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IamKriya

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Posted Reply with quote  #2 
Interesting topic...looking forward to what other members have to say.
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Posted Reply with quote  #3 
harvey, 

what's the difference between persistent and non-persistent caprifig? non-persistent doesn't put on figs? 
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HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #4 
Pete, I don't really know (thus this topic), but I think maybe persistent are at least all partly edible.  Croisic is one and 271-1 at Davis is one as well (have them both but one in a small pot and the other just stuck the cuttings a couple of weeks ago), but haven't had them long enough to evaluate.  It's soon going to be a little late to try to find caprifigs in the "wild" because of leaves forming.  I'm especially wondering if persistence can be judged by looking at the mamme in the winter since that's when it's easiest to find them.  I want to ask Howard at Davis but imagine he's swamped getting cutting orders put together.  Maybe I'll just email him and let him respond if he has time.
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GregMartin

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Posted Reply with quote  #5 
Harvey,
I'm pretty sure that a persistant caprifig is one that sets syconia that do not fall off when not pollinated or otherwise stimulated.  Caprifigs have both male and female flowers in their syconia.  If the female flowers are not pollinated then non-persistant (caducous) syconia will fall off.  If the caprifig is worth eating or not would be a different characteristic (goat fig or not).
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gorgi

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Posted Reply with quote  #6 
Not sure;  but both UCR 271-1 & 228-20 may be good candidates?
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HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #7 
Greg, I've not read about both male and female flowers in caprifig.  Can you refer me to a source for more reading on this?

George, I've got 271-1 and can evaluate it in a year but I'm wondering how to tell on new discoveries.  I'd prefer to limit new additions to just persistent caprifig.
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eboone

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Posted Reply with quote  #8 
Harvey - this Waynes Word reference is pretty good, not overly difficult reading.  SEction #3, Lifecycle of a fig is a good simple diagram.  The whole article really helped me understand things.

http://waynesword.palomar.edu/arbimg10.htm#lifecycle

The caprifig female flowers is where the wasp lays its eggs - they have a short style, as opposed to the female fig which has only long-style female flowers - the long style prevents the wasp from laying eggs inside the flower ovary.
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Ed
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HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #9 
Thanks, Ed.  I've read that a number of times but, obviously, not well enough.
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eboone

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Posted Reply with quote  #10 
I think it took me about 3 readings for most of it to sink in - I might pass the professor's test now  :)
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Ed
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Aaron4USA

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Posted Reply with quote  #11 
Can't wait to learn more on this subject...
All I have found out so far is that, besides of all caprification processes, there are some caprifigs that produce astable figs and most don't. Meaning most produce caprifigs but not astable figs.
hoosierbanana

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Posted Reply with quote  #12 
Harvey, when making controlled crosses breeders use sleeves made from insect barrier aka agribon to avoid natural pollination.
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gorgi

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Posted Reply with quote  #13 
What does "astable figs" mean?
Is this fig-thing getting more complex or what?
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HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #14 
Brent, the fig breeder I visited last month (the only one actively doing it now as far as I know), bags individual fruits to prevent pollen contamination.  I suggested these little nylon footie socks I have used but he said he wouldn't trust anything besides a solid barrier.
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Harvey - Correia Farms
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HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #15 
George, I'm pretty sure Aaron means "eatable" or edible.
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hoosierbanana

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Posted Reply with quote  #16 
If bags work there then why not, here it rains too much to put anything paper outside and expect a good result. But I told you because you asked how somebody would go about determining if a capri was persistent or not. There is nothing fancy about it.
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HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #17 
Brent, ideally, I'd like to be able to look at a mamme fig from a wild caprifig and determine if it was a persistent type.  I don't know if that would be possible, but I do notice differences in the appearance of some when cut open so it has me wondering.  I'd rather not collect cuttings and propagate them if I can eliminate it out in the field.
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Harvey - Correia Farms
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hoosierbanana

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Posted Reply with quote  #18 
I meant bag them and return later. I can see how that would be difficult if the tree is not local though. Do the capris you are watching now drop any figs? Seems to me one with persistence should be more productive. 
ARS GRIN also distinguishes between persistence of different crops for their capris, similar to San Pedro and common figs, if you want to use it for breeding you should evaluate the Profichi or Mammoni crop, I think. ARS just calls them early and main so I am not sure...
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Aaron4USA

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Posted Reply with quote  #19 
i meant eatable George, sorry 
HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #20 

Brent, I've only watched one tree closely, the one adjoining my farm.  All the crops drop eventually but that seems to happen with even common figs unless I or the birds get them first.

I have a couple of persistent varieties but one is a small tree in a gallon pot and the other is just starting to root so I won't be able to judge much from them.

I think I read in Condit or somewhere that they are edible and I noticed some photos of unknown mamme show more flesh so that got me to wondering....

I've got cuttings of caprifigs from various folks so those are trees I can't visit.  This may take a while, lol.
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CharlesC

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Posted Reply with quote  #21 
Harvey, which varieties are you thinking about crossing?  Any particular goal in mind, certain flavors, shapes, plant size, etc..? 

I'm in the rainy southeastern USA, so something like Celeste x (Violette de Bourdeaux x black capri) would be interesting to me.  Dwarf, black, closed eye, good favor.  Or an Alma x (Col de Dame x yellow capri).  I grew up in Houston with a Brunswick in the yard, so I'll probably eventually make a closed eye version of it for sentimental reasons.  There are a lot of interesting options.  There don't seem to be many caprifigs available, so you may have to make your own ideal one. 

It takes years to accomplish much in hybridizing, but it is fun.  I'm new to figs, but I have some experience hybridizing roses.  The USDA sent me some cuttings last week, including some capris, and I've been busily digging for information since then.
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gorgi

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Posted Reply with quote  #22 
Harvey, pl. do think about us north fig people.
Hardiness is highly desired - do breed HC/Florea.
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eboone

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Posted Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gorgi
Harvey, pl. do think about us north fig people.
Hardiness is highly desired - do breed HC/Florea.


Or maybe cross (Florea x caprifig) for cold hardiness and early ripening with (Black Madeira x caprifig) for quality/taste.    If it were only as easy as suggesting it  ;)
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Ed
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GregMartin

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Posted Reply with quote  #24 
George,
A few of us northerners are heading that way.  It'll be a while though so hang in there.
Cheers,
Greg
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HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #25 
All I can say I have in mind right now is to work on black figs with great taste.  I guess I should get a Florea.  I need a black persistent caprifig and I may need to breed my own if I can't find one in the wild.
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Harvey - Correia Farms
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eboone

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Posted Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarveyC
All I can say I have in mind right now is to work on black figs with great taste.  I guess I should get a Florea.  I need a black persistent caprifig and I may need to breed my own if I can't find one in the wild.


That would be a great question for that fig breeder you talked with. Some of the LSU figs were dark-wonder what caprifig O'Rourke used for them?

And would a light caprifig pollinating a dark fig have a chance of giving dark offspring?
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Ed
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hoosierbanana

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Posted Reply with quote  #27 
O'Rourke used "C1" from UC Riverside.
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HarveyC

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Posted Reply with quote  #28 
The fig breeder I met with was not familiar with C1.  He did work with caprifigs from UC Riverside, though.
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Harvey - Correia Farms
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