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godsavesthequeen

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Reply with quote  #1 
Hi everyone
I m Godsavesthequeen, newbie from Marseille, France. First, greetings for the new fundation structure, I guess it will be fine for the figs promotion, around the world.

I have an embryo of collection, I am interested in ethnic fig. I have in collection Kalamata, Lesvos, Markopoulou, Yesil Güz, Sari Zeybek, Adriatic, which have been planted in pot. In my orchard, something I failed to give a name. Perhaps "Col de Dame" (?). I will post some pics about it, I would be glad to be helped by taxonomic figs tree specialist.

I am searching and testing convective resistant ecotypes, i.e, some dwarf or adapted fig trees to the convective climates located on rocky, bare, dry places. By now, I am testing dwarf israeli forms...; and iranians (Zagros tyype...). Iranians are for me very closed to F. afghanica. Coming from seedlings, the trees exhibes leaves variance in morphologic expression. Does it exist dimorphism in Zagros fig?

I have another vision relative to taxonomy: Morphologic  and moleculars markers are helpfull for taxonomist, but  are not enough to approach plant behaviour in environmental conditions. For that, I trust in physiologic approach, respective to the microclimatologic behaviour (Bowen rapport impact on plant...; convective stress, atmospheric deficit vapour pressure and observations of fig trees under respective stress ...)

Recently, I discovered the Hilgardia synthesis, and the famous "three sections" described in it (Archaic types, San pedro types etc...).

I wonder about the genetic determinism of that types? I have a gross question: Does it exist self fecondation in the F. carica ??  What is the impact of caprifig in morphologic and gustative characters?

Best regards
Chriss (=GSTQ)

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Marseille, France, Zone 9b
Black Marseille VS, "Unkown prolific", Kalamata, Markopoulou, Livano, Lesvos, Sari Zeybek, White Patlican (not confirmed).
WishList: Malta Beauty, provenances from Sicily, Pantelleria, Malta, Kreta, Cyprus, Israel, Syria...
lampo

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Reply with quote  #2 
Chriss,

Welcome to the forum.
I feel that you will bring a good deal of information to this forum from your area and experience .

Being in the same 'ecoZone'  E.U.,  we are not affected by any severe restrictions when we enter the free exchange of plant material... ( At last free!!!)

From Portugal I propose to enrich your collection with the following local ethnics:

a couple of San Pedro - ditto for Common - ditto for Smyrna  .... (no cost)

hopping that you will not be disappointed !!

Cheers
Francisco
Southern Portugal






ForeverFigs

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Reply with quote  #3 
Welcome to the Forum Chriss.
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Vince
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ascpete

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Reply with quote  #4 
Hello Chriss,
Welcome to the forum community.
bullet08

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welcome to the forum.
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Pete
Durham, NC
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"don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." - sir winston churchill
"the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - the baroness thatcher

***** all my figs have FMV/FMD, in case you're wondering. *****
***** and... i don't sell things. what little i have will be posted here in winter for first come first serve base to be shared. no, i'm not a socialist...*****
snaglpus

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Reply with quote  #6 
Welcome Chris!
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Dennis
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newnandawg

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Reply with quote  #7 
Welcome!!!
susieqz

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Reply with quote  #8 
welcome, chris!
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susie 
wish list:  nothing. i can't grow cuttings  . right now, i have  6 trees showing no signs of fmv. i'd like to keep it that way' 

i was told that if i couldn't deal with fmv, i should grow peaches, so i got a peach tree to live with my clean figs.
Figfinatic

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Reply with quote  #9 
Welcome is all I can say. No clue as to the rest of your post.
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OttawanZ5

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Reply with quote  #10 
Welcome Chris
I am sure you will enrich the forum in the long run.
I already learned from your post that you do believe in God and that you want to save people (& figs) but I thought France was a democratic republic and did not have any Queen so possibly you might be referring to the Queen of figs (!?).
As mentioned in an above post, part of your post (with technical terms) was like reading an abstract of post graduate thesis. It shows the depth of your knowledge and hopefully, over time, we will benefit a lot from your posts.

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ohjustaguy

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Reply with quote  #11 
wow, registered 5 years ago and today is first post...

welcome sir...

maybe his screen name is because he is sex pistols fan?

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San Jose 9b
http://www.kevinsedibleyard.com/
jdarden1963

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Reply with quote  #12 
Where it says registered 08/09, it means Aug 9.  I made the same mistake at first.
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Jules

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NE Texas

Wish List: LSU Thibodeaux, LSU Red, Kathleen's Black, Lebanese Red, Jolly Tiger, Black Madeira, Purple Passion, Zingerilla (sp?), Martin's Purple Black, BA-1, White Ischia, any red fig, any dark fig or unknown
HarveyC

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Reply with quote  #13 
Welcome, Chriss.  I'm curious: what are the characteristics of your fig from Lesvos?
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Harvey - Correia Farms
Isleton, CA (Sacramento County) USDA zone 9b, Sunset zone 14

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godsavesthequeen

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Reply with quote  #14 
Thanks everyone and sorry for the delay!

Lampo: Your proposal is great, I already have Smyrna (= Calymyrna= Protoben = Baglama etc??...). My Smyrna came from seeds, from dried Baglama figs I had bought, eaten, and defecated.

Sorry for that non politically correct digression, but I noticed that seeds coming from the whole Moraceae family sprout well after being eaten and digested. This strange Moraceae's law is valid for Broussonetia (papyrifera, kazinoki...), Morus, and of course Ficus carica ...

Lampo: Please tell if you are searching special circa-Marseille fig, it would be a pleasure to send cuttings to you/

Ottawa: of course, the "Queen Fig" is Vassilika:)

Ohjustaguy: Yes, Im sexpistols fan, but not only... In fact, I am a french guy without french culture, I just hear about english or US music, my best choice is Lalo Schiffrin or Allan Holdsworth:)

Harry C: Lesvos... Humm... Coming from Greece and bought it on ebay in late spring.. "Lesvos" is a small greek island near Turky. This variety comes not well in Marseille: perhaps  fears sunny overadiation, the leaves are stressed here. Perhaps the actual Bowen ratio is to strong for it in Marseille: too much convection, not enough latent heat (??)


I have noticed that the Hillardia key is ancient and dated. The Hillgardia key, done in the 50's, is based on morphological characters of the sycone. It will be interesting to discriminate the forms of the leaves. I noticed that juvenil leaves are very different in each cultivar. I will post some pics to demonstrate my point of view.

Soon, I will post some pics of wild Marseille specimen I have there. I have pain to give a name to plenty of fig trees which are growing there. I am waiting for the fruiting season, in early October!

It is fun to be aware that Ficus carica is a "scat fan", their roots are spreading in sewer pipes seaking human dejections and water. Perhaps we could positive that phenomenon using ficus in water depollution. Knowing this, I use sewage to feed my Ficus! If anyone has other experience, I will be glad to learn about!!

Every posters, thank you again for your kindness!

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Marseille, France, Zone 9b
Black Marseille VS, "Unkown prolific", Kalamata, Markopoulou, Livano, Lesvos, Sari Zeybek, White Patlican (not confirmed).
WishList: Malta Beauty, provenances from Sicily, Pantelleria, Malta, Kreta, Cyprus, Israel, Syria...
jenniferarino83

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Reply with quote  #15 
Bonjour
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rcantor

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Reply with quote  #16 
Welcome!  Ficus carica is not self pollinating but can be parthenocarpic.  What we call common type is parthenocarpic.  They don't need the wasp to ripen and enable those of us with poor climates to eat fresh, ripe figs.  Rumor has it that caprification makes a fig taste better.  A great link for fig genetics is http://waynesword.palomar.edu/pljun99b.htm .  They have the answer to your question there.
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Zone 6, MO

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Galicia Negra, De La Reina - Pons, Genovese Nero - Rafed's, Sbayi, Souadi, Acciano, Any Rimada, Sodus Sicilian, any Bass, Pons or Axier fig, any great tasting fig.
godsavesthequeen

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Reply with quote  #17 
Hello Jennifer, Bonjour!!
Rcantor: Thank you for the link, I integrated that the "doxa"  postulate that it exists only pathenogeny and cross pollinisation via caprifig, therefore... fig sexuallity is complex, perhaps it exists in nature "female typus" making hermaphrodite viable sycones? In fact, that was my question!

Anybody there, tried to cross pollinise the cultivars from Smyrna type with caprifig to test the progeny?

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Marseille, France, Zone 9b
Black Marseille VS, "Unkown prolific", Kalamata, Markopoulou, Livano, Lesvos, Sari Zeybek, White Patlican (not confirmed).
WishList: Malta Beauty, provenances from Sicily, Pantelleria, Malta, Kreta, Cyprus, Israel, Syria...
rcantor

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Reply with quote  #18 
Here in the States LSU and UCR had programs.  Some people have had success blowing pollen from a caprifig into a female fig.  In several places they will hang caprifigs among Smyrnas or common figs so that the emerging wasps will pollinate them.  There are many fig synconia having male and female flowers inside.  In the caprifigs the male flowers are ready with their pollen as the wasps escape.  There are no female flowers at that time.  The caprifig's female flowers are ready earlier when the wasps arrive. 
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Zone 6, MO

Wish list:
Galicia Negra, De La Reina - Pons, Genovese Nero - Rafed's, Sbayi, Souadi, Acciano, Any Rimada, Sodus Sicilian, any Bass, Pons or Axier fig, any great tasting fig.
godsavesthequeen

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Reply with quote  #19 
Yes, of course. But futher investigations would be useful, specially ecotypes specialised in drought and convective environnement... P'erhaps, it exists fig tree in nature with coexistence of hard evolutive pression (convection, droughtness..;) and other adaptative characters than wasp?  It is fun to see that environmental modelisations focussed on soil texture, but avoid microclimatic considerations... After reading the OKE's book (boundary layer), I didnt see plant taxonomy in same way...
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Marseille, France, Zone 9b
Black Marseille VS, "Unkown prolific", Kalamata, Markopoulou, Livano, Lesvos, Sari Zeybek, White Patlican (not confirmed).
WishList: Malta Beauty, provenances from Sicily, Pantelleria, Malta, Kreta, Cyprus, Israel, Syria...
lampo

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Reply with quote  #20 
Hi Chris,

Thank you for your notes..very interesting !

Are your Smyrna cultivars (..from those Baglama seeds) already producing figs ? Have you names for such cultivars ?

I do several Smyrna varieties, the climate does help  and the wasp is practically everywhere in my District.

By the way, have recently located a seedling of not more than 3 or 5 years old, producing edible figs and I suspect they are Smyrna.
Will have soon seeds from this fig,... if you need some of these  seeds for your tests let me know.
See a recent thread, posted on the forum - 'the Sparrow fig'  -with several pictures of this seedling tree, growing from the trunk of a palm tree.

By Feb/2014 will arrange to dispatch to you those promised sticks.
Also,  I accept your offer and will be sending you en email in that respect.

Francisco
godsavesthequeen

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Reply with quote  #21 
Hi Fransisco,

Thanks a lot for your help!
If I understood the problematic, Smyrna (Lerida = Protoben) belongs to the archaic type and needs the wasp. I have an old Smyrna specimen in my orchard here in Marseille (sorry, it came from seeds... thus I do not know the cv name!), it gives figs in august but do not ripen. As we have the wasp here, and several caprifig circa my orchard, I wonder if the the wasps from Turkey or Greece are the same than those we have here in Provence?

Ok, I will check your link of your sparrow fig! I noticed that Palm tree often are symbiotic with plenty of nitrophil plants (Pittosporum, Sedums..., and Ficus!).

Smyrna seeds sprout well, but only if they have been eaten, as every Moraceae species:) The germination level is weak because figs are sulfurised ("Sulfites"=  perhaps germination inhibitor??).

Your are a specialist of Ficus, Fransisco, I will post the pics of semi-wild female we have around, and I will be glad to search every litigious female fig tree around Marseille, and send you cuttings. I propose we keep in touch!!

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Marseille, France, Zone 9b
Black Marseille VS, "Unkown prolific", Kalamata, Markopoulou, Livano, Lesvos, Sari Zeybek, White Patlican (not confirmed).
WishList: Malta Beauty, provenances from Sicily, Pantelleria, Malta, Kreta, Cyprus, Israel, Syria...
lampo

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Reply with quote  #22 
Hello Chris,

I have lived for many years with family growing figs and the wild (male fig) was omnipresent ! pollinating all varieties, be they Smyrna, Common or San Pedro (main crop)
I am no specialist, simply observing the behavior of these plants and their relationships with the provider of the pollen.
Although not being absolutely sure, the insect commonly known by 'wasp' is of the Agaonidae family
(Hymenoptera order) , - Genus/Species :  Blastophaga psenes  is similar along the Mediterranean basin from the shores of Turkey,Greece, Lebanon, Israel... westward, to Portugal and Morocco.

The figs you call Smyrna, showing up in August may be from that variety which in the absence of the pollinator, dry and fall to the ground. If interested to see those figs to ripe, if you can,  keep paying regular visits to the Caprifigs you said near your yard from 10/15 June onwards...The good caprifigs at that time appear on the top wood of the previous year in clusters of six to ten per branch or even more and are called Profichi...If healthy, they should be full of the good pollen and holding several hundred insects.
Depending on the variety of the Caprifig and weather, in principle, those Profichi's are fully ripe between the 15th and 20th of June approx... very soft skin and no resistance when lightly pressed between fingers. With some experience, feeling the fig weight in your hand you may say it has more or less wasps.
I am attaching a couple of cutaways of Profichi's at that stage and you will see the insides...many galls still with wasps and on a particular fig, the tunnel 'excavated' by the male wasps to ease the way to their ladies, soon exiting the fig laden with pollen, through the eye..

As regards to the fig seed germination, best is first to separate the seeds sinking to the bottom of a glass, so you are about sure that these do have a kernel and have good chances of germinating promptly at the right season (early Spring)

Let them in a mix os 15 to 20% table vinegar and tap water for 1 hour or so, then agitate well , rinse and they should be OK and free of their natural inhibitor. Doing so I never get less than 70 to 80% germination. In old times, people would do as per your funny description..and it works!!
Cheers
Francisco


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godsavesthequeen

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Reply with quote  #23 
Right! I do the same for Morus from Tafresh (Iran) and Broussonetia kazinoki. In the past, I had 0% germination with Moraceae seeds. Since I used to eat their delicious fruits,  the germination level increased. I will try your vinegar process! Thank you for having explain it!!

I am like you, I try to observe nature the best I can. This method is a good approach, the best way I think!

It is often difficult to remove dormances. Every plant's Familiy have a dedicated dormancy process. Most archaic family have no dormance (Magnoliaceae, Pinaceae), but evolution complexified the germination processes. Here in convective areas in mediterranean zone, the dormance is non existent, the fruits ripen with delay in October and sprout readily in early winter, so that, the roots are formed when drought occurs in early May.

In phreatic-non-mediterranean zones, it is the contrary, the fruits (cerasus, prunus and so one...) ripen very early (May), fall on the soil in July and spend the winter in the cold soil. The coldness removes dormancy, and small plants sprout in spring: thus the physiologic cycles are inversed and not the same for mediterranean plants and for mesic plants (=extramediterranean).

Perhaps we could have the same evolutive dichotomy in the genus Ficus?? It is likely that northern ecotypes follow the winter dormancy principe, and southern ecotypes follow the non-dormancy principe (???).

Last may, I posted a video on youtube showing the blastophage on a (mamoni????) growing in my garden. At that period, only one wasp was visible. Let check on:


... I didnt check the was in the profichis in June. Perhaps my caprifig are stessed because water stress? In fact my garden is located on a little hill, without phreatism, and very arid due to the convective effect (parc national des calanques next to me). Perhaps my problem comes from a weak wasp population. I will try caprification. Perhaps it will improve the Smyrna sycones fecondations?
Cheers
Chriss

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Marseille, France, Zone 9b
Black Marseille VS, "Unkown prolific", Kalamata, Markopoulou, Livano, Lesvos, Sari Zeybek, White Patlican (not confirmed).
WishList: Malta Beauty, provenances from Sicily, Pantelleria, Malta, Kreta, Cyprus, Israel, Syria...
godsavesthequeen

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Reply with quote  #24 
... By the way, your cutting arrived this morning, gorgous healthy stick with several green living eyes!!  I noticed the cutting had a good flavour!

I have a good reprise percentage setting containers on wet substrate, so that I do not water the cutting in the container directly, the irrigation is  via  capillarity, water going upset by matric and gravific potential. That way avoid the cutting to rotten, and leaves are appearing in few weeks.

I have some Barbusano gfrom laurisylva from Madeira (laurus novocanariensis, Appolonias barbusano...). Those plants comes well in Marseille in humid climate, with a weak Bowen ratio (evaporation higher than convection). It is logical, because your isle is located in the ocean. Perhaps the Black Madeira will have the same logic, it will be interesting to test the madeiran cultivar  versus several environnements respective to the Bowen ratio.

High Bowen ratio is a convectice ambiance: for example close to a wall south faced
Unitary Bowen ratio is when convection is balanced by evaporation: for example prairial watered or phreatic ecosystem on very sunny exposition
Weak Bowen ratio is a latent heat ambiance: for example dark ambiance and much evaporation (close to a lake, ripisylva ...)

Best regards,
Chriss

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Marseille, France, Zone 9b
Black Marseille VS, "Unkown prolific", Kalamata, Markopoulou, Livano, Lesvos, Sari Zeybek, White Patlican (not confirmed).
WishList: Malta Beauty, provenances from Sicily, Pantelleria, Malta, Kreta, Cyprus, Israel, Syria...
planteur123

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Reply with quote  #25 
Chriss
nous sommes donc deux français à s'intéresser aux figuiers sauvages et cultivés d'iran

pourrons-nous faire des échanges cet hiver ?

bien cordialement

Peter


--- so we are both frenchmen interested in wild and cultivated figs from persia
could we do some exchange next winter ?
all the best
Peter
godsavesthequeen

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Reply with quote  #26 
Planteur: Oui, naturellement, les miens sont issus de graines semées au printemps, ils font déjà 15cm mais la croissance est lente chez afghanistanica sensu lato semble t il... D'emblée, une grande variance morphologique est constatée, certains d'entre eux ont des limbes découpés, d'autres ont les limbes presque entiers. C'est pour cette raison que je posais la question à nos amis du forum, cad si le dimorphisme mâle/femelle serait plus accusé chez afghanistanica que chez carica, les individus mâles correspondant à ceux qui ont des limbes dentés et qui ont tendance à emettre plusieurs tiges (=multicaules), mais tout ça au pif,  je me planter bien sûr!

Deuxièmement, j'ai acheté sur ebay deux specimens nommés "afghanistanica" (ebayeur allemand), ils ne correspondent pas au premier abord à ceux que je fais pousser à partir de graines.

C'est tout ce que je peux dire sur le topic, je n'ai pas assez de recul pour débattre des figuiers iraniens.
Cheers

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Marseille, France, Zone 9b
Black Marseille VS, "Unkown prolific", Kalamata, Markopoulou, Livano, Lesvos, Sari Zeybek, White Patlican (not confirmed).
WishList: Malta Beauty, provenances from Sicily, Pantelleria, Malta, Kreta, Cyprus, Israel, Syria...
lampo

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Reply with quote  #27 
Hello Chriss,

The vinegar treatment works well and I have confirmation that it did OK in Brazil.. this acid solution somehow partially simulates the gastric enzymes,and the lot of substances involved in the digestive tract.

As regards to your comments on Black Madeira, my understanding is that  this cultivar originated from an old Portuguese variety of common figs called Violeta who may have migrated to the Atlantic archipelagos Madeira, Açores and Canary Islands with the first settlers back in the XV century.
They have strong similarities but the fruit develop slightly differently, size contour, etc.. when compared with the plant so grown in here.

From your comments on ficus dormancy's, I can only say that mine keep dormant through winter with no apparent vegetative activity with exception of the wild figs (caprifigs)---although showing no leaves the mamme crop grows significantly, holding the new colonies of wasps until it matures, liberating the new wasps by mid March.
The fig on your video does not seem to be a mammoni...At that time (May) the crop living on the caprifig should  be the Profich... see pics of my Profochi's in May 5th- the gall capsules full of larvae which in approx a month time will be fully developed wasps reay to exhit the synconium.

I have no experience with afgan of Iran figs. Have seen various contributions from forum members who grow these cultivars and I think they are very interesting and a complete novelty for a ficus collector.

You talk on your thread of having received some green cuttings with leaves, etc... You may have certainly confused the arrival of these cuttings, as I didn't send yet any cuttings.

cheers
Francisco

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godsavesthequeen

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Reply with quote  #28 

Lampo: Sorry for the confusion, I just ordered a cutting from Madeira (Black madeira), arrived yesterday very healthy with "green EYES" (= BUD, not leaves). I was thinking that you were the seller from the Bay (?).

I checked yesterday to see what kind of fig  my caprifig is carrying: in fact, due to drought, the whole profichis  felt down. Thus, not surprising my female fig trees "wasp-dependant" stay unpollinised. I guess the lack of water stress them... My caprifig grows on bare soil, with no water reserve. They spend the summer season in semi dormance, without any profichis nor much leaves. I should improve irrigation!!

Black Madeiran: The history of this cultivar is very interesting. That means that the cultivar has been improve by genic flux once installed on Madeira. Have you an idea of putative parent responsible of fruit improvement??

I was upset when I learned the existence of the Malta beauty, and the attraction on US' forumers!... It is clear 'malta beauty' is cosmeticaly a very nice fig, but do you think that cultivar deserves the price reached on the Bay ?? (lol). It is tempting to go herborise on small mediterranean and macaronesian islands to study the germplasm and ficus genetic ressources... Perhaps the "good" genes coding from flavour, odor and texture are far in the South? 

One think i am sure: convective areas as mediterranean island (Pantelleria, Lampedusa, Creta, Cyprus...bare dry soils...) are medium which  apply selective pression toward non adapted phenotypes. It is possible that natural selection  enhanced genotypes with high osmotic pression, thus high sucroses level. (Intern solution fiiled with sucroses improves the water soil succion!!). So, the fig trees from South, naturally selectioned, are naturally adapted to survive in high temperature medium. The incidence of high sucrose intern level is responsible of nice fruits flavour.

In other hand, the shiny skin may be caused by natural selection: high reflectance (albedo), lowering the heat flux axed on the sycone.

it is an embry of evolutive genetic. It is the same with other species, as Quercus ballota (from Spain), whose acorns are sweet. On contrary, acorns of Quercus ilex are astringent:))

Cheers



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Marseille, France, Zone 9b
Black Marseille VS, "Unkown prolific", Kalamata, Markopoulou, Livano, Lesvos, Sari Zeybek, White Patlican (not confirmed).
WishList: Malta Beauty, provenances from Sicily, Pantelleria, Malta, Kreta, Cyprus, Israel, Syria...
lampo

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Reply with quote  #29 
Chriss,

It's  all right for the confusion.. The chap selling on eBay has   same name!

But I am glad you got your cuttings OK.  I have also bought some from him.
While mentioning BM and to respond to your question about the putative influences on the original cultivar, I can only say that assuming the first plants were taken from this District (the only place with such fig), they were certainly grown on heavy calcareous soils with no artificial irrigation whatsoever.. it seems that in old days it was a 'sin' to water a fig tree.!?.. Frequent superficial cultivation along the season and the 2 or 3 dumps of manure (cow/horse) per season...mild temps in winter, a few frosts, but seldom descending bellow 3 or 4ºC... Summers were very long and very hot, typical Mediterranean, with a total absence of rain.

When moving to the Islands, particularly Madeira they switched to pure volcanic soils (on the north coast) NE winds, loaded with humidity brought by ´trades' and the almost constant diluted spray from the heavy swells of that particular north coast

http://www.madeira-web.com/PagesUK/weather2-uk.html

From this link you see how mild weather this fig encountered in Madeira ( a paradise when compared to its home slopes) Probably the type and rate of nutrients also change, shall I say for the better.

The Malta Beauty factor is a good example of how to make good money without much trouble.Once in a while similar factors pop up 'here and there'.

Once you mentioned those Med Islands, let me tell you that many years ago, just after WWII (1948) my grand dad took me with him to visit a good friend of his living in Pantelleria and the discussion was figs. I recall he was looking for some fig (which we tasted) I still have today its flavors in my palate.
It was a large black fig, most probably a Zidi as per recent inquiries.

Quercus ballota - I love this seed/fruit ! but not all. we do have plenty around. I used to eat eat it raw but the best are roasted in the oven after you cut if partially along its axis. If you need seeds let me know.

Francisco

PS- see these pics of young Violeta aka Black Madeira to compare when yours pop up some shoots!

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godsavesthequeen

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Reply with quote  #30 
Hi Fransisco!
Very interesting what you are describing!...

According to you, the divergences between BM fig tree and lusitanian fig tree comes only from environmental effect, with no genetic improvement? Were the original  "district" of BM fig tree : inland, in Portugal? Do you  mean that only soil effect (Volcanic soil from Madeira, saline aerosols...) responsible of the good flavour of BM fig, without genetic influences?

It would be easy to check an eventual  genetic effect, via culture of lusitanian fig tree in the same environnement than BM fig tree, disposed in plots with repetition of genotypes in order to balance micro environnemental effects.

I say that because in nature, it is frequent that natural population are adapted in their respective environnement via genetic flux. The alleles which are bad for the plant are eliminated while alleles which are good for the adaptation are positively selected. It would be not surprising that genetic flux occured between female lusitanian fig tree and  Madeiran-native wild caprifig?? It is hypothetic but possible...

'Zidi' : It is great to have this data. Is "Zidi" belonging to primitive wasp-dependant type, as the whole pool of  North African fig trees? Pantelleria is very close to Tunisia. When I was young, I went to Pantelleria, not for fig searching, but for  mysterious Sideritis searching. That plant was cited by italians botanists "Sull la Granda Pontagna". I didnt found it, but I felt on Georgio Armani staff which was doing some racollage, searching young boys for orgy activity... I run very fast!! -)

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Marseille, France, Zone 9b
Black Marseille VS, "Unkown prolific", Kalamata, Markopoulou, Livano, Lesvos, Sari Zeybek, White Patlican (not confirmed).
WishList: Malta Beauty, provenances from Sicily, Pantelleria, Malta, Kreta, Cyprus, Israel, Syria...
Liza

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by planteur123
Chriss
nous sommes donc deux français à s'intéresser aux figuiers sauvages et cultivés d'iran

pourrons-nous faire des échanges cet hiver ?

bien cordialement

Peter


--- so we are both frenchmen interested in wild and cultivated figs from persia
could we do some exchange next winter ?
all the best
Peter


Hello Chris and Peter................ 
I have just been able to buy some small trees directly from a Gentleman who has managed to grow from scions ,that has brought them from Iran.
One  is a Persian green and the other a Persian Black....names are unknown ,I will get pictures today and post.

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Liza
https://www.facebook.com/Fig.Farm?ref=tn_tnmn

Growing in the UK and Portugal:
lampo

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Reply with quote  #32 
Chriss,

...wait a minute!.. I did not say that..

quote:
... the divergences between BM fig tree and lusitanian fig tree comes only from environmental effect, with no genetic improvement.. unquote,

neither I mean anything you are suggesting..

quote:

...Do you  mean that only soil effect (Volcanic soil from Madeira, saline aerosols...) responsible of the good flavor of BM fig, without genetic influences? ....unquote

I limited my comments to the drastic environmental changes which may have affected the initial cultivars arriving in Madeira Islands.. soil, wind, temperature, humidity, etc..Not a word I said on any genetic, voluntary or not, interference from whatever source in the archipelagos.

I am not aware of any  good caprifigs in Madeira neither of any wasp colonies

The lusitanean fruit (Violeta) compares well with BM and the actual Figo Preto, apparently taken to California around 50 years ago by an emigrant.
If you have access through your tech investigations to a facility where the genetics (DNA) could be
investigated (at a reasonable cost) , let us know.

Francisco



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Reply with quote  #33 
Fransisco:  "Hélas" no! I am just botanist-amateur interested in agronomy or taxonomy, but not able to discuss about ficus carica DNA... I have some (weak) relation with INRA (Institut National Recherche Agronomique) located in AVIGNON. I know they experiment on DNA bar-coding: last winter I send them Pinus specimen, because we have in South France problems with pine determination (both P. halepensis/ P. brutia, with eventual genetic flux among them...), but not aware about Ficus trees at all.  Therefore, it seems very interesting to debate about Ficus evolutive pressions, and adaptative character. It is possible that nice fig flavour and nice aspect of the fruit are simply adaptative characters to environmental stress, fixed in genome since many years... Very often, I noticed "in situ" than coastal sites and dry/bare/convective sites generate good genetic improvement (against pest, resistance, fruit flavour). Only texture becomes bad (many  lignous tissues are synthetised under convective stress) if coastal stress is applied, but that can be balanced if plant lives in high hygrometric medium. In Sicilia, such site exist near Taormina...
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Marseille, France, Zone 9b
Black Marseille VS, "Unkown prolific", Kalamata, Markopoulou, Livano, Lesvos, Sari Zeybek, White Patlican (not confirmed).
WishList: Malta Beauty, provenances from Sicily, Pantelleria, Malta, Kreta, Cyprus, Israel, Syria...
godsavesthequeen

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Reply with quote  #34 
Lisa:
Hello Lisa!
Very happy to hear to you.
We wait for your pics!!
Chris

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Marseille, France, Zone 9b
Black Marseille VS, "Unkown prolific", Kalamata, Markopoulou, Livano, Lesvos, Sari Zeybek, White Patlican (not confirmed).
WishList: Malta Beauty, provenances from Sicily, Pantelleria, Malta, Kreta, Cyprus, Israel, Syria...
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