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Synonyms to fig varieties

hi Sergio, wait till you see what the chart will look like...;)

Well, there's no reason to pull this out of the F4F thread, so I'll post it there/here too. What I've written is about it. Thought it was clear. The F4F Varieties database is full of synonyms, and other useful information, but it's not kept up fully and fleshed out, in many ways. It wouldn't be worth it for one person to attempt to do that anyway. That it would even be possible for one person to achieve and keep up to date is not credible. Consequently, alternatively: a fig wiki. 

 
A series of informative notes on some of the most commonly mixed up or confusing cultivars and names of interest to fig growers could be useful. But that's no easy task. 
 
A lot of any such information turned up is going to be of questionable reliability, not to mention that a very lot of it has and will have no scientific testing. There do not exist the experts/scientists to verify much of any such information. The information is constantly shifting and growing as more growers and trees get involved. It would be a never ending project, given so many unknowns and so much activity. Thus again, the need and use for a fig wiki.
 
That's about all the thought I've given to the matter.

OK Tony, now I get it. wiki... not what I want to accomplish.
I have been very clear from beginning that I want a spread sheet format that's very easy to see and read. Beauty in simplicity. The rest of your concerns , which are naturally logical have been mentioned and replied to.

I'll push the difficulty of fig identity and potential cultivar "synonyms" a little bit by way of an example that particularly interests me because I am particularly interested in these following types of figs (among plenty of others), due to their reputedly being relatively cold hardy and early ripening. The example involves some, not all, of the cultivars often thought of (at least in some fig forums) as Mount Etna type figs. The example consists of the following questions:

1) Is the Takoma Violet cultivar the same as Dark Portuguese?
2) Is Marseilles Black VS cultivar the same as Sal's GS/EL?
3) Is Keddie cultivar the same as Gino's?
4) Are any of these cultivars the same as Hardy Chicago?
5) Are these all Mount Etna figs (figs "originating" on Mount Etna)?
6) If the answer to 5) can be shown/proven to be No, are these even all Mount Etna type figs?

I have my opinions about all six of these questions, but all of my opinions (answers) are tentative. Granted some of my opinions/answers are scarcely tentative. That is, I have a strong opinion/answer of Yes or No. However, some of my opinions/answers are extremely tentative, meaning, I don't remotely know, can't say, even while others may be absolutely certain about their conclusions. Scientists are not running experiments to answer these questions, and comparative fig growing has produced opinions that either trend one way or another, sometimes varying immensely, contradictions abounding. In fact, some of these questions I've never seen considered at all, or have very rarely seen considered, but can you guess which ones? Given the available information (also my own experiences) it seems to me that some such questions could well be asked, with good reason.

So I mention above a mere 7 cultivars. How to chart them? That is, how to chart them accurately? No one really knows. Maybe, to be most simple, the best one could do would be to list these 7, along with quite a few others, next to a notation that goes something like the following: 

These cultivars appear to be Mount Etna type cultivars. Some of these cultivars may be identical or virtually identical to one another but the vast majority appear to be relatively distinct from one another, and not infrequently significantly distinct

And what about Hardy Hartford? What about Hardy Cleveland? What about Abruzzi? What about Salem Dark and Black Bethlehem? etc What about the new unknowns constantly being discovered and assigned new names, or, more problematically, assigned known names incorrectly unwittingly? Any "chart" should come with a lot of qualifications and cautions given the reality of naming.

One could call the Mount Etna statement a charting I suppose but it seems to me that it would more reasonably be called one in a series of notes made about certain cultivars and groups of cultivars, such as one might find in an article, articles, or in an ever-developing wiki. Or in an annotated list of lists.

One more, shorter, example:

If I recall correctly, it has been mentioned in the forums that Palermo Red and Sal's Corleone and Aldo (among other names) might all be either the exact same cultivar or at least seem very similar to one another. I find this interesting because I happen to have Sal's Corleone and Aldo (both acquired this past year). They seem very similar, they seem like they could be identical, and at this point, I would guess that they are, but it would only be an educated guess. No scientific test has been done. Nor is one likely to be done. Moreover, the leaves of one seem somewhat more healthy than the leaves of the other -- somewhat differently shaped therefore? If they are the same cultivar, does one cultivar have a different level of FMV infection than the other making them perform like different cultivars? Or is it simply a current potting soil difference issue? Or, again, are they actually not the same cultivar? Scientists are unlikely to test these cultivars comparatively. Best knowledge is going to have to come from the community of growers. Such knowledge, though best knowledge, will probably bounce around more than a little, which can wreak havoc with a chart.

Take Magnolia and Brunswick. Said by some to be identical cultivars. Said by others to be very similar but with some differences, one possibly a sport of the other. I happen to have these two varieties as well. They seem noticeably different one from the other but also near enough that it's possible that as they mature they may appear ever more identical. Or not. If I had to keep one of the two right now, they are different enough, at least currently, that I know which one I prefer. Whereas, if I had to choose between my several Marseilles Black VS plants, it wouldn't matter because they all seem the same to me. They are in different sized pots and so on, but seem to be performing like a single cultivar, as one would expect. Why shouldn't my Brunswick and Magnolia be indistinguishable like my Marseilles Blacks, if the Brunswick and Magnolia are truly the same cultivar? They don't appear to be. But they might be, I suppose, as is sometimes claimed with reasonable persuasion. Where are the scientific tests, the conclusive scientific tests on those two? How will you chart them, without some significant notations? How is your chart not going to be hundreds or a thousand entries long (like the F4F Varieties database) and still be comprehensive and detailed enough to be meaningful? Wouldn't an annotated lists of lists be more detailed, clear, and simple - absent a wiki?

These are rhetorical questions (to me, despite any practical applications) and not very perplexing ones in my view, since they all seem to point to the difficulty of charting in a "spread sheet" as opposed to other more viable methods for reckoning with fig identity.

I do think a comprehensive "chart" could be done, but I think it would need be a rather involved chart, possibly not much dissimilar to the F4F Varieties database, updated, corrected where necessary, and with more qualifications, explanations, and other data mixed in. That seems a lot like reinventing the wheel, and very difficult.

While a "spread sheet" format seems to imply little room for badly needed qualifications and explanations, and so might wind up destroying more meaning than it creates, simple can work, to an extent. I put forth the very basic Ad Infinitum list and the Mount Etna category listing above. Any number of such "quite-similar" lists and groupings could prove useful to inexperienced figs growers especially. A very basic and straightforward presentation that is more expounded (in annotated list form) than atomized (in spread sheet form) could provide a lot of needed flexibility for conveying meaning. Detailed annotations would be needed to adequately contextualize, qualify and explain, the lists, and should be used.

"Spread sheet" format - at least as it has been discussed thus far - would seem to imply a precision that doesn't exist, and would seem to distort the information by truncated and fragmented display.

But these latter questions are merely of format. Surely there can exist a number of useful formats for sorting through fig identity. The F4F Varieties database and F4F Forum are two such very useful formats, currently existing. A wiki would be another, and seems to me the most adaptable, flexible, accurate mode, and the only format that could potentially approach comprehensive. An annotated list of lists is another basic format that I think would be highly useful for simplicity's sake. And surely charts as spread sheets could convey useful information, though risking simplistic and fragmented and thus false representations, due to space and flexibility limitations. Keeping things "simple" is challenging in any of these formats for even modest tasks, let alone for creating a comprehensive/"complete" listing attempting to sort out all of the individual fig cultivar identities one from another...especially given the lack of definitive data, the conflicting data, the often changing data, that exists for so many cultivars in, say, North America, let alone beyond. Whether or not crucial fig ID qualifications and contexts could be shoehorned into a spreadsheet format should be a main concern.

Impressive would be a spreadsheet that could even well sort out and array, say, the conflicting data about the Kadota figs, or what are thought might or might not be Kadota figs -- or a chart about, say, the Mount Etna figs and those thought to be or not to be Mount Etna figs -- let alone any great chart vastly comprehensive/"complete." Again, annotated lists would seem more practical than spreadsheets. Maybe a spreadsheet could be drawn up to chart such annotated lists. That is, a catalog.

Even if well drawn up, such charts or lists - or a catalog - would need periodic updating, at the least.




Tony I appreciate all the comments and ideas you have presented, they are very valid concerns and useful suggestions.
One thing we have to keep in mind though, this is the first step of the project and, as I mentioned in my #1 message, this step is where all the information comes in so we can see what varieties and synonyms we have in our hands regardless of them being accurate or not.
Your ideas are for future steps and towards the final step to finalize the project, where the pictures get involved and more complex information, like DNA test results and chemical analysis may be added to the process of "thinning of duplicates and correcting the mislabeled".
For now, lets all concentrate on bringing in more name/synonym related information to see what we have in hand.
And, yes, we will add international names also : Spanish, Italian, Greek, Turkish, Maltese, Egyptian, Chinese and many, more... because they all are used to describe one thing FIG!
FYI, meanwhile I'm getting tons of emails and PMs from people all over the world to the point that I wish I could clone myself and work harder...
So, the word is out people ;)
We are doing this!

Hi, I would like just to point another good source for fig cultivars and synonims:
http://www.fruitiers.net/catalogue_detail.php?genre=FIGUIER&logo=figues.jpg

Some of you may already know about this french site, or even are members of
both F4F and fruitiers.net.

Those who are interested, can check on this site for a specific information.

Rofig,   Thank you.  Do you speak French?   That's a greatr site and loaded with synonyms.  This is very helpful ....  I need a French dictionary.


PS  I just found a free French/English  dictionary on Amazon.   

http://www.amazon.com/ETATICS-French-English-Dictionary/dp/B00AWMIACQ/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&qid=1391345606&sr=8-17&keywords=french%2C+english+dictionary

Soni you can copy and paste it on google translate

There are some great discussions and fine points being made on this thread and a wealth of information is already coming out. 

I think it is a super idea to have a web enabled database/list of popular fig cultivars utilizing all the great software tools available now.  Hopefully easily navigable and easy to extract lists for personal use....  Jon's web site is already a standard for many people.

Let's face it there are too many common fig varieties (and growing) for any work in this subject to be 100% complete.  Also many newly bred cultivars will prove to be inadequate and will disappear so shouldn't be included until a unique agreed to name is given (i.e. a keeper).  I hate id-numbered cultivars.  They should be left in the research circles until proven.

If the work covers 80% of the figs that would be more than awesome.  Even just focusing on Jon's 1,000 varieties would serve the needs of most forum members.   

Goal 1, don't re-invent the wheel.  As many links on this thread show there are many works and web sites and databases already.  Not sure how copyright laws come into play? 

Has anyone estimated the work effort?  Sounds like a sh__ load of work and there will be substantial costs to host and update this baby when complete.  

Ideally organizations/people that have worked on past efforts can be brought into the team and their work be leveraged. 

When I run into discrepancies in fig names I still refer to the great work by Hilgardia/Ira J. Condit.  Wouldn't it be wonderful to have that work updated and modernized? 

Sorry if I misunderstood your goal its Sunday morning and I am rushing around to prepare for you know what.

@rofig, I love the site, it's very informative , thank you very much. I'm keeping this one ...

Sony, there's a FREE App called iTranslate, you could download for your smart phone, it offers any language you want. You type in English then choose a language to convert your thought into... it's really fun, I didn't know I could speak and write Korean, Mandarin or Thai, nevertheless French, Italian or Portuguese. LOL

@pino, thanks for your input, very helpful. I want to bring up a point about different varieties and name/synonyms.

When this project is complete, we will be able to identify ANY variety and see, also, that the list of varieties might shrink drastically. There will be almost no Unknowns if the information is used correctly. There aren't many mutations and new breeds of figs that humans don't already know about, but there are many, if not all fig varieties, that behave differently under different conditions and circumstances of growth.

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 That's what we call them in this neck of the woods, what do you call them where you come from? That is an example of some of the problems with synonyms. Regionally different names for  the same plant or visa versa and you have the same name for different plants. This is a never ending task.  A rose is a rose etc... I like the red one but the "redder" one is even better Which red one, the one called Rosy?

Barry, thank you so much for your opinion. You made a very important point of Your Woods/Our Woods... one may name something with Fig while some one else Fico, both meaning Ficus Carica. Hence  Name/Synonym=Same . It helps people to understand each other much better ;)

It finally started to rain in Los Angeles, Hlleluia !

After some 5 min, the rain stopped :(
That is the second "rain" in what? Like 4 months..

"When this project it complete, we will be able to identify ANY variety and see, also, that the list of varieties might shrink drastically. There will be almost no Unknowns if the information is used correctly. There aren't many mutations and new breeds of figs that humans don't already know about, but there are many, if not all fig varieties, that behave differently under different conditions and circumstances of growth."

What "list of varieties"? How many ficus carica cultivars would you guess exist? 300? 3000? Scientists estimate the number of plant and animal species that remain undiscovered. Is there any scientific estimate of the number of cultivars (of the carica species) that may exist? Isn't the order of magnitude expected to be in the thousands rather than the hundreds? So a "drastic" cut of cultivar identities due to synonyms might be, say, fifty percent, from, say, two thousand to one thousand cultivars? Or...? Much higher? Much lower?

Consider: 

"Thousands of cultivars, mostly unnamed, have been developed or have come into existence as human migration brought the fig to many places outside its natural range. Almost all fig cultivars grown worldwide are the result of centuries-long selections done among wild seedlings and open-pollinated seedlings of cultivated trees by unknown people." ... "Even after eliminating suspected synonyms, the most complete fig monograph (Condit 1955) describes 607 named fruit-producing cultivars..." (Flaishman et al 2008)


Also consider that unfortunately:

"For several decades, the land area devoted to village traditional fig production has significantly decreased in many Mediterranean countries, and severe genetic erosion is threatening local fig germplasm." (Flaishman...)

So, yes, it's good to identify synonyms of fig cultivars - after all, some cultivars are said to have dozens of synonyms - but given all the benefits of diversity, we should hope that the number of known different fig types increases as much as possible. Fortunately, figs continuously propagate of their own accord in various ways:

"Genetic variability in fig is enhanced by the obligatory outcrossing in this species, resulting in the production of new individuals with potentially favorable characteristics from seeds. Because fig is easily propagated through cuttings and is repeatedly propagated to maintain desirable cultivars, there is also considerable opportunity for phenotypic variability from natural mutations within a cultivar. Naming of desirable fig cultivars is recorded as early as the fourth century BCE. In the first century CE, Pliny lists 29 cultivars of fig. De Candolle (1886) noted that the 'cultivated forms [of figs] are numberless'." (Flaishman...)

And if I understand correctly, with fruit trees, not only do mutations like chimeras and bud sports naturally occur, but "There is the potential for genetic variation and environmental influence to change the phenotypic and genotypic character" of these mutations (Andrea L. Carlson).

All the ethnic spots or wild pockets or other areas around the fig growing world have not necessarily been scoured, not least for all the various wild propagations, chimeras, sports, and further phenotypic and genotypic changes. In fact, commenters here in the forum seem to be doing as much scouring as anyone, whether scouting for wild seedling trees in California or scouting ethnic neighborhoods in many states and countries. Just the knowledge of the possible variety of Mount Etna cultivars may have changed significantly in the past 10 years. The extent of actual distinct diversity among these varieties is still unclear (whether they are synonyms or mutations and changes) but it seems as likely as anything to be even less clear ten years from now again, as we may reasonably expect potential Mount Etna types with possible mutations and changes to continue to be turned up, perhaps increasingly so given growing interest. Would these newcomers turn out to be already named and found long since in European or other fig collections? Possibly. Possibly not. Hopefully there will be both a lot of diversity and a lot of intercontinental duplication, especially given that some fig trees are being wiped out in some locations (Malta) and not others.

Quoting above except where noted otherwise: "The Fig: Botany, Horticulture, and Breeding" by Flaishman, Rodov, and Stover 2008. These authors also mentioned a number of fig projects that in part tried to sort out synonyms. As I recall, the projects they mentioned discovered between zero and fifty percent synonyms. The authors also indicate that no consensus has been achieved on cultivar identification testing methods. And of course there is no hint of funding for universal testing of fig cultivars, whether there is technical consensus or not. That a universal testing program would be undertaken (or could be, lacking great collection efforts beyond the current institutional collections) in the remotely foreseeable future is highly unlikely, to say the least.

There's a difference between pinpointing a quantity of synonyms and determining what quantity of cultivars exist. The existing numbers of identified cultivars, cultivar synonyms, and undiscovered cultivars could be scientifically estimated (as has been done for plant species). Would be interesting to know to what extent those attempts have been made.




Tony , I just love reading your notes, keep'em coming ;)

Figs are not static.

In theory, every 'figling' grown from seed
(think - bird poop!) should be unique ...

moscatel preto = abebereria? Long black fig from Portugal...

alan, diet doesn't change DNA... diet will bring out what is already there. it's just expressing the genetic code that is already there, not mutating or changing the DNA in anyway. also, it will not be passed on to next generation.

we need to understand what exactly is the genetic change and what is adaptation to different growing condition. usually when there is mutation, there's good chance that cell will die before passing on the genetic material. radiation, and viral infection are two that i know can change the DNA as in mutation. 

sexual reproduction is not a mutation. it's more of combining two different half to make new organism. 

Pete is right, small changes that we see in human genes or plants is from the ability to adopt..."POTENTIAL" of the species.

one pollenated  flower=one fruit , not an entire tree.
meaning: pollination can affect ONLY that particular fruit, not the mother tree. And if you plant the seed of that pollenated fruit doesn't mean your are going to get a new breed or a hybrid.

alan, there are somatic cells and reproductive cells. change to somatic cells are "mutations". however, the mutation typically won't change a human to a chimp. hybridization is reproduction by selection to bring out more desirable result. this does not change the somatic cells, but will create fertile seed that can be germinate and turn into a new tree. 

i'm not sure if sport off a fig tree is exactly mutation or not. mutation usually indicates permanent change. but seeing the some of Panache and Jolly Tiger can reverse.. i don't think that's a mutation, but certain change in the way the DNA is read during the protein synthesis. or something like that. it's been awhile since i took genetics and plant bio. 

Speaking of Names & Synonyms... I have received several cuttings from Greece, Italy and Armenia, yet no names... I'm going to wait till the list is comlete and legit so I can figure out what they are, until then...they will be called Unknown Blacks and Whites ;-/

Hi Aaron4USA,
Be prepared to find them new names. You could start with "greece-name/town of donor " .
You know as long as the trees are productive, they are kept, even nowadays . Look at the amazing diversity in the brown turkey strain.
Here, I can point up to 5 different Brown turkey fig strains ... Amazing ... The fig evolution is still on going .

HI there, I hope this question fits this thread,

I was wondering if Rouge de Bordeaux has any relation to Ronde de Bordeaux? I currently have Ronde, and was just curious if they were the same or similar?> Thanks! Christy

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